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Re: Wanting to hate all black women isn't racist or sexist, say Tories
Posted: Wed Mar 13, 2024 6:22 pm
by discovolante
Well, part of the reason for the complaints seems to be double standards where other (not black) MPs kept the whip or got it back in similar situations. I haven't looked into the circumstances of each of them yet though so I can't really comment.
Re: Wanting to hate all black women isn't racist or sexist, say Tories
Posted: Wed Mar 13, 2024 6:45 pm
by Tristan
But how is that linked to the comments about her? She rightfully lost the whip. These comments don’t change that.
Re: Wanting to hate all black women isn't racist or sexist, say Tories
Posted: Wed Mar 13, 2024 7:35 pm
by discovolante
Well, unsurprisingly a couple of issues have become tangled up now that she's been brought back to everyone's attention - including whether the apparently ongoing investigation against her is fair or not. But what do you think about possible double standards? If two white MPs and one black MP faced similar (justified) allegations, and the black MP lost the whip and the white MPs didn't, what would you make of that?
TBH, I sort of wanted to post about this but wasn't going to unless and until I'd looked back at what had gone on with the other MPs as well, but I haven't had chance to do that yet and the subject's been brought up anyway, so here I am I guess.
Re: Wanting to hate all black women isn't racist or sexist, say Tories
Posted: Wed Mar 13, 2024 7:57 pm
by Tristan
Any MP who did what Abbott did (and continues to do) should lose the whip. She’s not welcome in the Labour Party.
Re: Wanting to hate all black women isn't racist or sexist, say Tories
Posted: Thu Mar 14, 2024 12:19 pm
by philbo
What this guy said reminded me of something from a *long* time ago: my mother, getting wound up about something the Thatcher government was doing, said Keith Joseph was enough to turn her antisemitic.. (a bit more context: she was married to a Jew, half my relatives are Jewish & while she did get similarly riled about the sexism in the more Orthodox synagogues, that really wasn't a word anyone would have associated with her).
What I mean is, I don't think his words taken in isolation guarantee an accusation of racism/sexism so much as expression of a large antipathy for Diane Abbott. Having said that.. he has form, lots of history and it seems fairly clear that the dislike for Abbott probably has a significant racist/sexist root. She definitely attracts the opprobrium from a huge section of the racist right-wing (who are still passing around obnoxious memes of her as though they're politically relevant), and has probably taken more personal sh.t than any other MP.
The one (fairly minor) consolation with the whole affair is that it has highlighted a $10m donation to the Conservatives by someone who has personally made many tens of millions from NHS contracts worth a few hundred mill - the conflicts of interest (at best.. complete and utter corruption at worst) at almost any other point in history would be a massive scandal that might have caused resignations; but now it's just another data point for the most corrupt government of our time.
Re: Wanting to hate all black women isn't racist or sexist, say Tories
Posted: Thu Mar 14, 2024 6:38 pm
by noggins
One has to consider “ Would Diane Abbots ‘Good’ Twin get more or less hate mail?”
Re: Wanting to hate all black women isn't racist or sexist, say Tories
Posted: Thu Mar 14, 2024 7:10 pm
by monkey
Don't talk about the ₤10 M anymore, it's ₤15 M now.
clicky
Right before an election too!
Re: Wanting to hate all black women isn't racist or sexist, say Tories
Posted: Thu Mar 14, 2024 10:57 pm
by discovolante
Tristan wrote: ↑Wed Mar 13, 2024 7:57 pm
Any MP who did what Abbott did (and continues to do) should lose the whip. She’s not welcome in the Labour Party.
OK, so a few examples - names drawn from what seemed to be a pretty unpleasant and unedifying exchange involving vested interests, so not necessarily representative, but:
Diane Abbott (black woman) - suspended April 2023 for responding to an article about the complexity of racism in Britain by referring to how black people were treated in pre-civil rights America compared with Jewish people, Irish people and Travellers.
Andy McDonald (white man) - suspended in October 2023 for saying 'We won’t rest until we have justice. Until all people, Israelis and Palestinians, between the river and the sea, can live in peaceful liberty' at a pro-Palestine rally. Got the whip reinstated yesterday, I think.
Kate Osamor (black woman) - suspended end of January for saying that what is happening in Gaza should be remembered as genocide on Holocaust Memorial Day.
Steve Reed (white man) - July 2020, tweeted that a Jewish man (Richard Desmond) was a 'puppet-master to the entire Tory cabinet' - deleted tweet and apologised after it was pointed out that Desmond was Jewish, no further repercussions that I can make out.
Barry Sheerman (white man) - August 2020, tweeted about 'a run on silver shekels' regarding a rumour that two Jewish businessmen missed out on peerages. He apologised, no further action taken that I can see.
Azhar Ali (Asian man) - February, claimed Israel allowed Hamas to attack on 7 October to get a 'green light to do whatever they bl..dy want'. Drew heavy criticism but continued as an MP until 'further information' came to light, at which point Labour withdrew its support.
The main difference between the comments to me seems to be that some were more or less straight antisemitic tropes and attacks, while others were ostensibly said in support of Palestine (apart from one which was about pre civil rights America...). There also seems to be a correlation between when the incidents occurred and the outcome.
Re: Wanting to hate all black women isn't racist or sexist, say Tories
Posted: Fri Mar 15, 2024 8:03 am
by discovolante
To be honest, I'm not entirely sure why you decided to make this about the issue of her not getting the whip back, rather than the fact that she, the first black female MP, who received almost a third of all abusive tweets analysed in a 2017 report looking at abusive tweets against women MPs (
https://www.amnesty.org.uk/online-violence-women-mps), has now been exposed to further abuse that also targeted black women generally. (BAME - Amnesty's terminology - women received 41% of all abusive tweets even though there were almost eight times as many white MPs in the study.)
Re: Wanting to hate all black women isn't racist or sexist, say Tories
Posted: Fri Mar 15, 2024 8:32 am
by Tristan
discovolante wrote: ↑Fri Mar 15, 2024 8:03 am
To be honest, I'm not entirely sure why you decided to make this about the issue of her not getting the whip back, rather
Oh I’m sorry, are we only allowed to comment on the very specific points of an OP and not on related elements as a story/issue develops?
Re: Wanting to hate all black women isn't racist or sexist, say Tories
Posted: Fri Mar 15, 2024 8:45 am
by Tristan
discovolante wrote: ↑Thu Mar 14, 2024 10:57 pm
Tristan wrote: ↑Wed Mar 13, 2024 7:57 pm
Any MP who did what Abbott did (and continues to do) should lose the whip. She’s not welcome in the Labour Party.
OK, so a few examples - names drawn from what seemed to be a pretty unpleasant and unedifying exchange involving vested interests, so not necessarily representative, but:
Diane Abbott (black woman) - suspended April 2023 for responding to an article about the complexity of racism in Britain by referring to how black people were treated in pre-civil rights America compared with Jewish people, Irish people and Travellers.
Andy McDonald (white man) - suspended in October 2023 for saying 'We won’t rest until we have justice. Until all people, Israelis and Palestinians, between the river and the sea, can live in peaceful liberty' at a pro-Palestine rally. Got the whip reinstated yesterday, I think.
Kate Osamor (black woman) - suspended end of January for saying that what is happening in Gaza should be remembered as genocide on Holocaust Memorial Day.
Steve Reed (white man) - July 2020, tweeted that a Jewish man (Richard Desmond) was a 'puppet-master to the entire Tory cabinet' - deleted tweet and apologised after it was pointed out that Desmond was Jewish, no further repercussions that I can make out.
Barry Sheerman (white man) - August 2020, tweeted about 'a run on silver shekels' regarding a rumour that two Jewish businessmen missed out on peerages. He apologised, no further action taken that I can see.
Azhar Ali (Asian man) - February, claimed Israel allowed Hamas to attack on 7 October to get a 'green light to do whatever they bl..dy want'. Drew heavy criticism but continued as an MP until 'further information' came to light, at which point Labour withdrew its support.
The main difference between the comments to me seems to be that some were more or less straight antisemitic tropes and attacks, while others were ostensibly said in support of Palestine (apart from one which was about pre civil rights America...). There also seems to be a correlation between when the incidents occurred and the outcome.
Based on the above yes, I think Sheerman should have had whip removed too. Same with Reed. Ali was never an MP and was rightly ditched.
It’s also with noting that Abbott’s explanation (wrong draft sent) didn’t seem plausible at the time and she continues to say dodgy stuff.
People are trying to use what’s happened to her now (bad as it is) to get her back into the party. They shouldn’t.
Re: Wanting to hate all black women isn't racist or sexist, say Tories
Posted: Fri Mar 15, 2024 9:16 am
by TopBadger
Why should Reed get suspended for that? His comments were about an individual and without reference to anything else, therefore they can't be racist. I don't understand what's wrong about that.
Re: Wanting to hate all black women isn't racist or sexist, say Tories
Posted: Fri Mar 15, 2024 9:29 am
by jimbob
TopBadger wrote: ↑Fri Mar 15, 2024 9:16 am
Why should Reed get suspended for that? His comments were about an individual and without reference to anything else, therefore they can't be racist. I don't understand what's wrong about that.
"Jewish puppet master" is a well known antisemitic trope.
Sheerman should also have been expelled.
Re: Wanting to hate all black women isn't racist or sexist, say Tories
Posted: Fri Mar 15, 2024 9:33 am
by discovolante
Tristan wrote: ↑Fri Mar 15, 2024 8:32 am
discovolante wrote: ↑Fri Mar 15, 2024 8:03 am
To be honest, I'm not entirely sure why you decided to make this about the issue of her not getting the whip back, rather
Oh I’m sorry, are we only allowed to comment on the very specific points of an OP and not on related elements as a story/issue develops?
No, but it was a decision to hone in on that point when there's plenty of other stuff going on.
There seems to be a fairly clear connection between Diane Abbott, a high profile black woman, receiving a huge proportion of abuse and Frank Hester saying she makes him 'want to hate all black women' (remember that time Liam Neeson said he spent ages wanting to kill a black man after his friend said she'd been raped by a black man?).
You've said you think Reed and Sheerman should have lost the whip too, but they didn't. End of story I guess?
Re: Wanting to hate all black women isn't racist or sexist, say Tories
Posted: Fri Mar 15, 2024 10:09 am
by TopBadger
jimbob wrote: ↑Fri Mar 15, 2024 9:29 am
TopBadger wrote: ↑Fri Mar 15, 2024 9:16 am
Why should Reed get suspended for that? His comments were about an individual and without reference to anything else, therefore they can't be racist. I don't understand what's wrong about that.
"Jewish puppet master" is a well known antisemitic trope.
Sheerman should also have been expelled.
"Puppet master" is a well known trope for describing any situation where an individual or group is believed to be in control behind the scenes. But without reference to Judaism, isn't antisemitic (or at least isn't to me).
Deploying a trope against an individual isn't racism. So even if the individual happens to be Jewish I'm not convinced think that makes it antisemitic.
In the same vein, one racist view of black people is that they're of lower intelligence (which is plainly wrong). But if someone say, called Diane Abbott a bit thick, is that racism? I don't think so. She's drawn a lot of fair criticism for stupid comments she's made over her long time as an MP, many roundly and fairly criticized here and in the old place, but I wouldn't say anyone here who has previously called her stupid or thick was guilty of racism.
Re: Wanting to hate all black women isn't racist or sexist, say Tories
Posted: Fri Mar 15, 2024 11:20 am
by dyqik
TopBadger wrote: ↑Fri Mar 15, 2024 10:09 am
jimbob wrote: ↑Fri Mar 15, 2024 9:29 am
TopBadger wrote: ↑Fri Mar 15, 2024 9:16 am
Why should Reed get suspended for that? His comments were about an individual and without reference to anything else, therefore they can't be racist. I don't understand what's wrong about that.
"Jewish puppet master" is a well known antisemitic trope.
Sheerman should also have been expelled.
"Puppet master" is a well known trope for describing any situation where an individual or group is believed to be in control behind the scenes. But without reference to Judaism, isn't antisemitic (or at least isn't to me).
No one thinks that Metallica's Master of Puppets is antisemitic, I assume?
Re: Wanting to hate all black women isn't racist or sexist, say Tories
Posted: Fri Mar 15, 2024 11:24 am
by discovolante
Wait, Diane Abbot wasn't given the opportunity to speak in the Commons yesterday because the Speaker ran out of time? He prioritised those already listed on the order paper. Is this a binding parliamentary rule?
Re: Wanting to hate all black women isn't racist or sexist, say Tories
Posted: Fri Mar 15, 2024 11:38 am
by Tristan
dyqik wrote: ↑Fri Mar 15, 2024 11:20 am
TopBadger wrote: ↑Fri Mar 15, 2024 10:09 am
jimbob wrote: ↑Fri Mar 15, 2024 9:29 am
"Jewish puppet master" is a well known antisemitic trope.
Sheerman should also have been expelled.
"Puppet master" is a well known trope for describing any situation where an individual or group is believed to be in control behind the scenes. But without reference to Judaism, isn't antisemitic (or at least isn't to me).
No one thinks that Metallica's Master of Puppets is antisemitic, I assume?
Well, it's very clear what they're referring to when they're talking about a master of puppets in that song. So, no, it isn't.
Re: Wanting to hate all black women isn't racist or sexist, say Tories
Posted: Fri Mar 15, 2024 12:03 pm
by Gfamily
discovolante wrote: ↑Fri Mar 15, 2024 11:24 am
Wait, Diane Abbot wasn't given the opportunity to speak in the Commons yesterday because the Speaker ran out of time? He prioritised those already listed on the order paper. Is this a binding parliamentary rule?
The rule is that speakers alternate from the government and opposition benches
I gather that 9 people from the government benches were chosen to speak who were not on the list (but that may have been because there were fewer from that side to start with)
As for the 'ran out of time': quite recent PMQs have ended at least 4 minutes later than this week's.
The speaker allowed his team to rebut criticism made when he 'applied his discretion' as regards to parliamentary procedures (over the SNP Gaza debate), so he's happy to fudge the rules sometimes. Just not this time.
Re: Wanting to hate all black women isn't racist or sexist, say Tories
Posted: Fri Mar 15, 2024 12:06 pm
by jimbob
Gfamily wrote: ↑Fri Mar 15, 2024 12:03 pm
discovolante wrote: ↑Fri Mar 15, 2024 11:24 am
Wait, Diane Abbot wasn't given the opportunity to speak in the Commons yesterday because the Speaker ran out of time? He prioritised those already listed on the order paper. Is this a binding parliamentary rule?
The rule is that speakers alternate from the government and opposition benches
I gather that 9 people from the government benches were chosen to speak who were not on the list (but that may have been because there were fewer from that side to start with)
As for the 'ran out of time': quite recent PMQs have ended at least 4 minutes later than this week's.
The speaker allowed his team to rebut criticism made when he 'applied his discretion' as regards to parliamentary procedures (over the SNP Gaza debate), so he's happy to fudge the rules sometimes. Just not this time.
Exactly.
It was a really poor decision.
Re: Wanting to hate all black women isn't racist or sexist, say Tories
Posted: Fri Mar 15, 2024 12:11 pm
by Tristan
Absolutely. She should have had an opportunity to speak. I wonder if the kicking the speaker had the other week is making him nervous about being more flexible with the rules. But either way, she should have been able to speak.
Re: Wanting to hate all black women isn't racist or sexist, say Tories
Posted: Fri Mar 15, 2024 1:47 pm
by Gfamily
Gfamily wrote: ↑Fri Mar 15, 2024 12:03 pm
The rule is that speakers alternate from the government and opposition benches
I gather that 9 people from the government benches were chosen to speak who were not on the list (but that may have been because there were fewer from that side to start with)
Apparently, a computer selects 'the list' from those who have applied to speak.
The 'not on the list' Conservative MPs were added so they could maintain the alternation of Govt/ Oppo, as the computer had selected more opposition MPs
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-68564637
Re: Wanting to hate all black women isn't racist or sexist, say Tories
Posted: Mon Mar 18, 2024 10:25 am
by discovolante
Gfamily wrote: ↑Fri Mar 15, 2024 1:47 pm
Gfamily wrote: ↑Fri Mar 15, 2024 12:03 pm
The rule is that speakers alternate from the government and opposition benches
I gather that 9 people from the government benches were chosen to speak who were not on the list (but that may have been because there were fewer from that side to start with)
Apparently, a computer selects 'the list' from those who have applied to speak.
The 'not on the list' Conservative MPs were added so they could maintain the alternation of Govt/ Oppo, as the computer had selected more opposition MPs
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-68564637
The article also says:
Ruth Fox, director of the Hansard Society which carries out research into Parliament, said that while the Speaker does have to ensure balance he also has discretion over who to call or for how long Prime Minister's Questions should go on.
She argued Sir Lindsay could have explained to MPs that he would pick Ms Abbott, even though she wasn't on the official list, because she had been the subject of so much discussion.
So it was up to him.
Eta: although, one or any of the opposition MPs could have used their turn to say they wanted her to have the opportunity to speak.
Re: Wanting to hate all black women isn't racist or sexist, say Tories
Posted: Tue Mar 19, 2024 1:30 pm
by raven
philbo wrote: ↑Thu Mar 14, 2024 12:19 pm
The one (fairly minor) consolation with the whole affair is that it has highlighted a $10m donation to the Conservatives by someone who has personally made many tens of millions from NHS contracts worth a few hundred mill - the conflicts of interest (at best.. complete and utter corruption at worst) at almost any other point in history would be a massive scandal that might have caused resignations; but now it's just another data point for the most corrupt government of our time.
Thus funneling money from taxpayers via the NHS straight into Tory party coffers. Which I object to vehemently.
If I was feeling cynical (hard not to with the shower in office atm), I might wonder if someone thought airing Hester's racist jokes was a good way to distract from that. Don't remember Laura Kuenssberg really focusing on the corruption angle when she was interviewing Mark Harper about it on Sunday.
Still, I think the whole affair has been another nail in the coffin.
Re: Wanting to hate all black women isn't racist or sexist, say Tories
Posted: Tue Mar 19, 2024 1:50 pm
by Tessa K
raven wrote: ↑Tue Mar 19, 2024 1:30 pm
philbo wrote: ↑Thu Mar 14, 2024 12:19 pm
The one (fairly minor) consolation with the whole affair is that it has highlighted a $10m donation to the Conservatives by someone who has personally made many tens of millions from NHS contracts worth a few hundred mill - the conflicts of interest (at best.. complete and utter corruption at worst) at almost any other point in history would be a massive scandal that might have caused resignations; but now it's just another data point for the most corrupt government of our time.
Thus funneling money from taxpayers via the NHS straight into Tory party coffers. Which I object to vehemently.
If I was feeling cynical (hard not to with the shower in office atm), I might wonder if someone thought airing Hester's racist jokes was a good way to distract from that. Don't remember Laura Kuenssberg really focusing on the corruption angle when she was interviewing Mark Harper about it on Sunday.
Still, I think the whole affair has been another nail in the coffin.
More nail than coffin now