Slippery Slope?

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shpalman
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Re: Slippery Slope?

Post by shpalman » Fri Oct 04, 2024 2:32 pm

Tristan wrote:
Fri Oct 04, 2024 1:11 pm
You don't have alive people who think they're dead for one thing.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cotard%27s_syndrome
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Re: Slippery Slope?

Post by noggins » Fri Oct 04, 2024 2:43 pm

Imrael wrote:
Sat Apr 13, 2024 7:32 am
At risk of being contrarian, what are the arguments against allowing assisted death for people with chronic conditions that affect quality of life (which might well include mental health issues), with safeguards for consent.

My anecdata here is looking after my Father in Law in his declining years. In his 90's, while still lucid, he suffered from painful mobility problems, deafness and a speech problem. Despite all we could do he was bored a lot, in pain and frustrated. He frequently said to me that he would like to go to sleep and not wake up. All that lay ahead of him was a couple of years of physical and mental distress. (Made worse since he was in hospital then nursing home in Covid lockdown when we couldnt visit him).
Your real suffering Father in Law doesn't matter as much as some theoretical Father in Law who might be prodded into self-sacrifice by his wicked progeny.

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Re: Slippery Slope?

Post by Sciolus » Fri Oct 04, 2024 6:45 pm

lpm wrote:
Fri Oct 04, 2024 12:14 pm
The dynamics are completely different.

There aren't any life extremists threatening to rape and kill death extremists. There's actually a good chance of a reasoned and respectful debate.
One similarity is that both can be framed (trying to put this neutrally) as the state intruding into some of the most fundamental aspects of personhood with the stated aim of protecting the vulnerable, but with a number of parties acting according to (often religious) dogmatism with no consideration of the interests of the real people involved.

FWIW that is pretty much my view of it, and I consider that any state intervention in other people's most fundamental rights should be the absolute bare minimum necessary to protect the genuinely vulnerable, and not based on evidence-free hypotheticals.

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Re: Slippery Slope?

Post by Woodchopper » Sat Oct 05, 2024 7:22 am

bob sterman wrote:
Sat Apr 13, 2024 7:38 am
Imrael wrote:
Sat Apr 13, 2024 7:32 am
At risk of being contrarian, what are the arguments against allowing assisted death for people with chronic conditions that affect quality of life (which might well include mental health issues), with safeguards for consent.
That it leads to the problems highlighted in the examples above - the elderly and people with disabilities and chronic conditions end up experiencing pressure to end their lives. And healthcare systems start to see offering death as an alternative to providing basic appropriate care.
Yes, the argument is that it’s the slippery slope in the thread title. Once assisted dying becomes legal it is then possible to fudge the criteria and use it as an alternative to providing expensive services to people who would want to live if they got the care they need.

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Re: Slippery Slope?

Post by Martin_B » Sat Oct 05, 2024 7:44 am

Woodchopper wrote:
Sat Oct 05, 2024 7:22 am
bob sterman wrote:
Sat Apr 13, 2024 7:38 am
Imrael wrote:
Sat Apr 13, 2024 7:32 am
At risk of being contrarian, what are the arguments against allowing assisted death for people with chronic conditions that affect quality of life (which might well include mental health issues), with safeguards for consent.
That it leads to the problems highlighted in the examples above - the elderly and people with disabilities and chronic conditions end up experiencing pressure to end their lives. And healthcare systems start to see offering death as an alternative to providing basic appropriate care.
Yes, the argument is that it’s the slippery slope in the thread title. Once assisted dying becomes legal it is then possible to fudge the criteria and use it as an alternative to providing expensive services to people who would want to live if they got the care they need.
The trouble is that was the argument used against marriage equality; once you start allowing same sex marriage then it is possible to fudge the criteria and use it to allow people to marry pets or furniture. That didn't happen.

Mind you, it did happen when they allowed women the vote - once that happened they started standing for election, and then running the place! ;)
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Re: Slippery Slope?

Post by lpm » Sat Oct 05, 2024 8:09 am

Martin_B wrote:
Sat Oct 05, 2024 7:44 am
The trouble is that was the argument used against marriage equality; once you start allowing same sex marriage then it is possible to fudge the criteria and use it to allow people to marry pets or furniture. That didn't happen.
But it has happened on this issue. It's not a hypothetical. The slope has been slipped down.
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Re: Slippery Slope?

Post by Tristan » Sat Oct 05, 2024 8:27 am

lpm wrote:
Sat Oct 05, 2024 8:09 am
Martin_B wrote:
Sat Oct 05, 2024 7:44 am
The trouble is that was the argument used against marriage equality; once you start allowing same sex marriage then it is possible to fudge the criteria and use it to allow people to marry pets or furniture. That didn't happen.
But it has happened on this issue. It's not a hypothetical. The slope has been slipped down.
And there’s the other parallel with the other issue.

Person 1: “You’re scare mongering. That’ll never happen”

Thing happens

Person 2: “That think you said would never happen has happened again”

Person 1:…. Crickets

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Re: Slippery Slope?

Post by Grumble » Sat Oct 05, 2024 11:25 am

Martin_B wrote:
Sat Oct 05, 2024 7:44 am
Woodchopper wrote:
Sat Oct 05, 2024 7:22 am
bob sterman wrote:
Sat Apr 13, 2024 7:38 am


That it leads to the problems highlighted in the examples above - the elderly and people with disabilities and chronic conditions end up experiencing pressure to end their lives. And healthcare systems start to see offering death as an alternative to providing basic appropriate care.
Yes, the argument is that it’s the slippery slope in the thread title. Once assisted dying becomes legal it is then possible to fudge the criteria and use it as an alternative to providing expensive services to people who would want to live if they got the care they need.
The trouble is that was the argument used against marriage equality; once you start allowing same sex marriage then it is possible to fudge the criteria and use it to allow people to marry pets or furniture. That didn't happen.

Mind you, it did happen when they allowed women the vote - once that happened they started standing for election, and then running the place! ;)
Marriage requires consent of two adults. There can be and are issues when apparent consent is in fact forced, or one party is not in fact competent to consent (e.g. they are underage). Informed consent is an issue that we do not always get right, and the penalty for not getting it right in the case of assisted dying is pretty final.
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Re: Slippery Slope?

Post by Tristan » Sun Oct 06, 2024 9:57 am

I see they’re already greasing up the slope
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Re: Slippery Slope?

Post by JQH » Tue Oct 08, 2024 11:12 am

Woodchopper wrote:
Sat Oct 05, 2024 7:22 am
... Once assisted dying becomes legal it is then possible to fudge the criteria and use it as an alternative to providing expensive services to people who would want to live if they got the care they need.
That is my worry. I have Parkinsons but am kept functional by expensive drugs. If they were with-held my life would become very difficult perhaps even intolerable.
And remember that if you botch the exit, the carnival of reaction may be coming to a town near you.

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Re: Slippery Slope?

Post by dyqik » Tue Oct 08, 2024 11:28 am

JQH wrote:
Tue Oct 08, 2024 11:12 am
Woodchopper wrote:
Sat Oct 05, 2024 7:22 am
... Once assisted dying becomes legal it is then possible to fudge the criteria and use it as an alternative to providing expensive services to people who would want to live if they got the care they need.
That is my worry. I have Parkinsons but am kept functional by expensive drugs. If they were with-held my life would become very difficult perhaps even intolerable.
Given the rhetoric from the Tories about the NHS, why do you think assisted dying is a necessary step for those drugs to be withheld?

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Re: Slippery Slope?

Post by JQH » Tue Oct 08, 2024 11:34 am

I'm not saying it is a necessary step - I'm saying it is more likely to happen if the assisted dying slope is well greased.
And remember that if you botch the exit, the carnival of reaction may be coming to a town near you.

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Re: Slippery Slope?

Post by El Pollo Diablo » Tue Oct 08, 2024 12:47 pm

There doesn't seem to be quite the same set of issues in the Netherlands, or at least the Wikipedia article about it doesn't feature the same set of criticisms.

Certainly, it does seem as if Canada are making a mess of it, but experience elsewhere suggests that it doesn't have to be a mess. Less than 10% of the governing party's MPs supporting a more lenient position hardly implies that's where it'll land.

My opinion on this aligns with Terry Pratchett's, even if there are concerns about it. Many people are suffering deeply and a lot of them would like to end their lives before their pain reaches intolerable levels. It's not a neutral position to just say no.
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Re: Slippery Slope?

Post by Fishnut » Tue Oct 08, 2024 1:19 pm

Oregon seems to be an example of it working well. Their 26th Death with Dignity Act report shows that around 67% of people who receive prescriptions to end their lives actually use them, and people choosing to end their lives under the act account for 0.8% of the state's population.

Personally, I find it an affront that we are willing to extend lives using medicine in ways that often leave people in pain but aren't willing to use those same medicines to give people a dignified ending. A friend of the family recently passed away. She was on "palliative care" at home and for at least the last week she wasn't eating or drinking. The only fluids she was receiving was having her lips wetted. She was, fortunately, barely conscious most of the time but when she was she was in pain. Her family had to watch her starve and dehydrate to death. Why? What benefit was there to make her last week like that? Her quality of life was non-existent - she was in a bed in her living room, unable to move, barely able to talk, barely aware of her surroundings. She was in her 90s and honestly deserved better than that.

I love what medicine has been able to do to extend lives and improve its quality for so many. I've got family and friends who wouldn't be here today if it weren't for the wonders of modern medicine. But that comes with the ability to keep people alive beyond what is tolerable for some, and I don't understand why we can't allow those people to be more in control of the manner of their inevitable death.
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Re: Slippery Slope?

Post by jimbob » Tue Oct 08, 2024 2:32 pm

El Pollo Diablo wrote:
Tue Oct 08, 2024 12:47 pm
There doesn't seem to be quite the same set of issues in the Netherlands, or at least the Wikipedia article about it doesn't feature the same set of criticisms.

Certainly, it does seem as if Canada are making a mess of it, but experience elsewhere suggests that it doesn't have to be a mess. Less than 10% of the governing party's MPs supporting a more lenient position hardly implies that's where it'll land.

My opinion on this aligns with Terry Pratchett's, even if there are concerns about it. Many people are suffering deeply and a lot of them would like to end their lives before their pain reaches intolerable levels. It's not a neutral position to just say no.
Likewise, and what Fishnut also said.

We should allow people the dignity of being able to choose the manner of their ending, especially if they are suffering a degenerative or painful condition. There needs to be massive precautions though.
Have you considered stupidity as an explanation

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Re: Slippery Slope?

Post by Chris Preston » Tue Oct 08, 2024 2:50 pm

Fishnut wrote:
Tue Oct 08, 2024 1:19 pm
Oregon seems to be an example of it working well. Their 26th Death with Dignity Act report shows that around 67% of people who receive prescriptions to end their lives actually use them, and people choosing to end their lives under the act account for 0.8% of the state's population.

Personally, I find it an affront that we are willing to extend lives using medicine in ways that often leave people in pain but aren't willing to use those same medicines to give people a dignified ending. A friend of the family recently passed away. She was on "palliative care" at home and for at least the last week she wasn't eating or drinking. The only fluids she was receiving was having her lips wetted. She was, fortunately, barely conscious most of the time but when she was she was in pain. Her family had to watch her starve and dehydrate to death. Why? What benefit was there to make her last week like that? Her quality of life was non-existent - she was in a bed in her living room, unable to move, barely able to talk, barely aware of her surroundings. She was in her 90s and honestly deserved better than that.

I love what medicine has been able to do to extend lives and improve its quality for so many. I've got family and friends who wouldn't be here today if it weren't for the wonders of modern medicine. But that comes with the ability to keep people alive beyond what is tolerable for some, and I don't understand why we can't allow those people to be more in control of the manner of their inevitable death.
This is what the last week of my father's life was like, except he was in hospital. In the end, I had to confirm his decision* not to be treated for a hospital acquired infection, so he could die. He would have much rather ended it all some 6 months before, but we had no available laws then.

*I am aware the doctors were well meaning, in that the infection could be easily cured. However, my father's health had deteriorated to such an extent that he was going to need to go to a care home if he ever got well enough to leave hospital. I organised that just in case, but my father was determined to avoid doing it.
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Re: Slippery Slope?

Post by lpm » Tue Oct 08, 2024 2:57 pm

Fishnut wrote:
Tue Oct 08, 2024 1:19 pm
I don't understand why we can't allow those people to be more in control of the manner of their inevitable death.
The case you describe does not sound like one where the individual was in control and had the capacity to make decisions.

There's a fundamental problem in that so many end of life decisions need to be taken at a point where the individual is vulnerable and cannot be the decision maker.
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Re: Slippery Slope?

Post by Fishnut » Tue Oct 08, 2024 3:20 pm

lpm wrote:
Tue Oct 08, 2024 2:57 pm
Fishnut wrote:
Tue Oct 08, 2024 1:19 pm
I don't understand why we can't allow those people to be more in control of the manner of their inevitable death.
The case you describe does not sound like one where the individual was in control and had the capacity to make decisions.

There's a fundamental problem in that so many end of life decisions need to be taken at a point where the individual is vulnerable and cannot be the decision maker.
At the end she certainly wasn't, but there was plenty of time for her to have made her wishes explicit, if those wishes would have done anything. She was dying from old age. Everyone, including her, knew her death was imminent. It wasn't a question of if but when, and the when was fast approaching. The only issue up for debate was the nature of her passing - would it be slow and agonising or quick and pain free? Maybe she wanted the slow option and, if she did then great because that's what she got. But if she didn't, then it's quite horrific to think she went through that suffering when the means to prevent it were available.
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Re: Slippery Slope?

Post by bob sterman » Tue Oct 08, 2024 6:32 pm

El Pollo Diablo wrote:
Tue Oct 08, 2024 12:47 pm
There doesn't seem to be quite the same set of issues in the Netherlands, or at least the Wikipedia article about it doesn't feature the same set of criticisms.
Well there are issues with euthanasia being available and used for mental health problems in young people. 138 assisted deaths for psychiatric conditions in 2023...

Debate ignites in the Netherlands over rise in euthanasia for mental disorders
https://english.elpais.com/internationa ... rders.html

Why the Dutch are euthanising physically healthy young adults – and could the UK be next?

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/0 ... -children/

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