Trump Assassination Attempt

[Bewildered]

I am so embarrassed to be an American. I want to emigrate to somewhere less f.cked up. However I doubt any sane countries are even taking American applicants anymore. And who can blame them.

We've recreated the Third Reich almost perfectly. Americana Uber-Alles.

Who will be given the part that corresponds to being a Jew in Germany in 1939? When will the violence start? Will the new Hitler just stuff the constitution in the toilet on day one?

The US and the world are seriously f.cked, to the thunderous applause of the idiots who elected these evil men to our highest offices.

Hoping for a large asteroid to put us out of everyone's misery

I thought the same thing watching "Lee" - new Kate Winslet film at the weekend. Her character describes the rise of the Nazi's and during that it occurred to me that History could be about to repeat itself. Lets hope what remains of the "checks and balances" stops the US teetering over the edge.

IMHO people should try to learn a lot more lessons from history. The Nazis were a very extreme form of authoritarianism who existed in pretty unique times (limited history of democracy, hyper inflation and depression, nation lost a world war and was stripped of its empire etc). What is much more common is the consolidation of power among an individual or clique which erodes democracy and the rule of law and replaces it with corrupt politics based upon patronage. People should be more worried about the US following the example set by Erdogan, Oban or Berlusconi than by Hitler.

Could also worry about the example set by Putin?

I just mean there are probably a lot of different example, varying qualitatively and quantitatively. The nazi example is quite extreme and scary in many ways, but I am afraid at this stage I don’t think it is absurd to worry about trump being both qualitatively and quantitatively much more extreme than berlosconi was.

[Woodchopper]

I thought the same thing watching "Lee" - new Kate Winslet film at the weekend. Her character describes the rise of the Nazi's and during that it occurred to me that History could be about to repeat itself. Lets hope what remains of the "checks and balances" stops the US teetering over the edge.

IMHO people should try to learn a lot more lessons from history. The Nazis were a very extreme form of authoritarianism who existed in pretty unique times (limited history of democracy, hyper inflation and depression, nation lost a world war and was stripped of its empire etc). What is much more common is the consolidation of power among an individual or clique which erodes democracy and the rule of law and replaces it with corrupt politics based upon patronage. People should be more worried about the US following the example set by Erdogan, Oban or Berlusconi than by Hitler.

Could also worry about the example set by Putin?

I just mean there are probably a lot of different example, varying qualitatively and quantitatively. The nazi example is quite extreme and scary in many ways, but I am afraid at this stage I don’t think it is absurd to worry about trump being both qualitatively and quantitatively much more extreme than berlosconi was.

Erdogan has done much worse than Berlusconi, with Orban in the middle. The thing about Putin is that Russia had no history of democracy before 1992, and in the Yeltsin years it was pretty flaky. It was easy for Putin to dismantle institutions and practices that had hardly existed. This isn't to say that Trump isn't a danger, but he'll find it much harder in the US. What he could do is to more gradually erode democracy and the rule of law, which is a much more pressing danger. People should spend much more time looking at how that worked in established democracies like Italy than very different examples like Russia in the 1990s (again, very brief history of democracy, lost the Cold War, lost much of its empire, experienced economic collpase).

[Bewildered]

Btw I don’t get why we are discussing this in the trump assassination thread. I guess it might encourage some to think people are making exactly the same kind of irresponsible posts that led to the assassination attempts. Though I think, even if you believe that, we are a small selective enough group that I think it’s not a risk.

[Woodchopper]

Btw I don’t get why we are discussing this in the trump assassination thread. I guess it might encourage some to think people are making exactly the same kind of irresponsible posts that led to the assassination attempts. Though I think, even if you believe that, we are a small selective enough group that I think it’s not a risk.

Discussions have a habit of wandering off topic. If I have the time I could start an new thread and move some posts over.

[Bewildered]

IMHO people should try to learn a lot more lessons from history. The Nazis were a very extreme form of authoritarianism who existed in pretty unique times (limited history of democracy, hyper inflation and depression, nation lost a world war and was stripped of its empire etc). What is much more common is the consolidation of power among an individual or clique which erodes democracy and the rule of law and replaces it with corrupt politics based upon patronage. People should be more worried about the US following the example set by Erdogan, Oban or Berlusconi than by Hitler.

Could also worry about the example set by Putin?

I just mean there are probably a lot of different example, varying qualitatively and quantitatively. The nazi example is quite extreme and scary in many ways, but I am afraid at this stage I don’t think it is absurd to worry about trump being both qualitatively and quantitatively much more extreme than berlosconi was.

Erdogan has done much worse than Berlusconi, with Orban in the middle. The thing about Putin is that Russia had no history of democracy before 1992, and in the Yeltsin years it was pretty flaky. It was easy for Putin to dismantle institutions and practices that had hardly existed. This isn't to say that Trump isn't a danger, but he'll find it much harder in the US. What he could do is to more gradually erode democracy and the rule of law, which is a much more pressing danger. People should spend much more time looking at how that worked in established democracies like Italy than very different examples like Russia in the 1990s (again, very brief history of democracy, lost the Cold War, lost much of its empire, experienced economic collpase).

Yes to the first sentence, though we can maybe give Orban some more time. You might be right, but I actually feel you are also oversimplifying. Yes Russia did not have a long history of democracy, but it was one. I could also argue that Turkey had a lot of flaws and did look a fragile as one, so it’s probably not a great comparison either. I think Italy was already not healthiest democracy before berlosconi and I am not sure we should call it a failed democracy after him, even if now we have meloni who is a bit scary. I think berlosconi is also very different from trump and there was much less scope for harm just because of that. Trump has support from white supremacists and extreme militia groups from the beginning and has done nothing to disavow this, has threatened to lock up opponents albeit without following through last time, seems to have issued illegal orders that were ignored by staff when he was in power, tried to overturn the election when he knew he had lost. And now he has Supreme Court, senate and congress majorities and he may be much better prepared this time.

I am not saying I know it will be that bad, maybe it will all be a damp squib. But I think there is a big uncertainty and any historical or current examples can only be used in limited ways. Certainly looking at what has happened in your examples is good for preparing for practical ways the democracy can be eroded and ideas of how they could have been better resisted. But I don’t think they are great for limiting the scope of how bad it could be or how fast it could drop. We don’t have good examples for how a stable western democracy might fall, but it doesn’t mean that in hundreds of years from now there won’t be a bunch of them to look back at and that they crumbled faster than people would have expected.

[Chris Preston]

While much has been made of Trump's autocratic tendencies and his ideas of wanting to be a dictator, against that I think you need to weigh Trump's behaviour. I have found it much easier to explain Trump's sayings and doings by understanding that narcissism rules Trump. Trump creates chaos as a way of controlling those around him. They spend their time battling chaos, rather than achieving things and taking the spotlight off Trump. Trump wants to cosplay at being a dictator, rather then be one. He has no interest in detail - remember in his last term they famously had to reduce the daily security briefing to 1 page of large text to get him to actually read it. Trump has no real policies other that attention for himself, tax cuts for billionaires and retribution.

There are those around Trump who believe they can control him for their own purposes, but as we saw in his first term, Trump will fall out with anyone who does not offer him perfect loyalty. Given how many people in his last cabinet who have turned against him, Trump will be even more focused on loyalty this time around.

I am guessing that much of Project 2025 will not get implemented. Even the idea of sacking a large number of civil servants and replacing them with Trump loyalists will take time and effort, two things Trump does not want to invest. More likely, I see a repeat of his last term, which consisted of Trump grandstanding amongst the chaos with nothing much done, only more so. Yes there will be a lot of damage done and ironically, Trump supporters are likely to bear a lot of the pain, but the country won't become a failed state.

Some of the damage will be to people's confidence in the democratic institutions, but this is in a country where a considerable minority already have no faith in government. I am bemused by the large number of people who have told me they have guns to protect themselves from the government. My response is normally some form of "Really?". If the government was really out to get them, having a gun will provide little protection.

[Woodchopper]

While much has been made of Trump's autocratic tendencies and his ideas of wanting to be a dictator, against that I think you need to weigh Trump's behaviour. I have found it much easier to explain Trump's sayings and doings by understanding that narcissism rules Trump. Trump creates chaos as a way of controlling those around him. They spend their time battling chaos, rather than achieving things and taking the spotlight off Trump. Trump wants to cosplay at being a dictator, rather then be one. He has no interest in detail - remember in his last term they famously had to reduce the daily security briefing to 1 page of large text to get him to actually read it. Trump has no real policies other that attention for himself, tax cuts for billionaires and retribution.

There are those around Trump who believe they can control him for their own purposes, but as we saw in his first term, Trump will fall out with anyone who does not offer him perfect loyalty. Given how many people in his last cabinet who have turned against him, Trump will be even more focused on loyalty this time around.

I am guessing that much of Project 2025 will not get implemented. Even the idea of sacking a large number of civil servants and replacing them with Trump loyalists will take time and effort, two things Trump does not want to invest. More likely, I see a repeat of his last term, which consisted of Trump grandstanding amongst the chaos with nothing much done, only more so. Yes there will be a lot of damage done and ironically, Trump supporters are likely to bear a lot of the pain, but the country won't become a failed state.

Some of the damage will be to people's confidence in the democratic institutions, but this is in a country where a considerable minority already have no faith in government. I am bemused by the large number of people who have told me they have guns to protect themselves from the government. My response is normally some form of "Really?". If the government was really out to get them, having a gun will provide little protection.

Yes, you make some good points. Trump's second administration might end up like a court in an incompetent monarchy. If so that's probably the best that we can hope for.

[lpm]

Well, we can easily look in the history books for the outcomes of incompetent monarchs.

King John - sexual predator, notorious liar, continual breaker of oaths, corrupt, exploiter of the system for personal gain, terrible military commander, exploited by chancers on the make, unable to form friendships.

Outcome - loss of vast Angevin Empire (western part of modern France from Normandy to Pyrenees), economic devastation from exploitative taxation, excommunication and interdict, rebellion, Magna Carta, repudiate Magna Carta with weeks, civil war, London lost, son of French king invited over to be new king, dies prematurely.

[Woodchopper]

Well, we can easily look in the history books for the outcomes of incompetent monarchs.

King John - sexual predator, notorious liar, continual breaker of oaths, corrupt, exploiter of the system for personal gain, terrible military commander, exploited by chancers on the make, unable to form friendships.

Outcome - loss of vast Angevin Empire (western part of modern France from Normandy to Pyrenees), economic devastation from exploitative taxation, excommunication and interdict, rebellion, Magna Carta, repudiate Magna Carta with weeks, civil war, London lost, son of French king invited over to be new king, dies prematurely.

John was king for 17 years though. Trump has four, and anti-incumbency means that the democrats will probably regain at least one of the house or senate in two years. Over the next two years his ability to do anything domestically is limited by the state governments and congress (who won't agree to everything).

Trump has a lot more freedom of action in foreign policy. Good news for the Saudis and likely bad for the Palestinians and Ukrainians.

[El Pollo Diablo]

Well, we can easily look in the history books for the outcomes of incompetent monarchs.

King John - sexual predator, notorious liar, continual breaker of oaths, corrupt, exploiter of the system for personal gain, terrible military commander, exploited by chancers on the make, unable to form friendships.

Outcome - loss of vast Angevin Empire (western part of modern France from Normandy to Pyrenees), economic devastation from exploitative taxation, excommunication and interdict, rebellion, Magna Carta, repudiate Magna Carta with weeks, civil war, London lost, son of French king invited over to be new king, dies prematurely.

Don't forget he also lost the crown jewels in the Wash, the f.cking plum

[shpalman]

Well, we can easily look in the history books for the outcomes of incompetent monarchs.

King John - sexual predator, notorious liar, continual breaker of oaths, corrupt, exploiter of the system for personal gain, terrible military commander, exploited by chancers on the make, unable to form friendships.

Outcome - loss of vast Angevin Empire (western part of modern France from Normandy to Pyrenees), economic devastation from exploitative taxation, excommunication and interdict, rebellion, Magna Carta, repudiate Magna Carta with weeks, civil war, London lost, son of French king invited over to be new king, dies prematurely.

Don't forget he also lost the crown jewels in the Wash, the f.cking plum

I was on a flight a few days ago and I happened to listen to that episode of No Such Thing As A Fish too.

[El Pollo Diablo]

Ah, I haven't listened to that - just one of those random bits of folklore that comes up. Presumably The Wash is crawling with metal detectorists trying to avoid sinking in the quicksand.

[shpalman]

Ah, I haven't listened to that - just one of those random bits of folklore that comes up. Presumably The Wash is crawling with metal detectorists trying to avoid sinking in the quicksand.

I think it was 541: No Such Thing As A Sycamore In A Silver Coat

[jimbob]

1066_KingJohn.jpg (192.55 KiB) Viewed 1159 times

Ah, I haven't listened to that - just one of those random bits of folklore that comes up. Presumably The Wash is crawling with metal detectorists trying to avoid sinking in the quicksand.

1066_KingJohn.jpg (192.55 KiB) Viewed 1159 times

[Al Capone Junior]

I just want to know

Since the Christians are taking over, and their actual real main deal is all about who they hate (jesus's love is not on the agenda in the real world)...

Who's going to be the first to be the wrong kind of Christian?

[Al Capone Junior]

Oh. And I am definitely not encouraging anyone to attempt to assassinate trump.

But how f.cking useless is a gun nut he bent on killing the biggest douche in the universe... who can't even f.cking shoot? Twice?

Jesus f.cking christ, if you're gonna do something, do it right.

It's another symptom of our dysfunctional gun fetish, but it's really just more of the same: very, very few ppl actually accomplish what they fantasize their guns will do for them. The result of making a decision to use a gun is almost always followed by failure to accomplish the thing they had in mind, and massive, immediate regret.

Regardless of the exponentially increasing stupidity in the US (and world, thanks schmuckerberg, elon et al), I refuse to carry a gun, refuse to keep one loaded in the house, and refuse to back down on my pontification of no humans should ever be allowed to have any guns EVER.

[philbo]

King John - sexual predator, notorious liar, continual breaker of oaths, corrupt, exploiter of the system for personal gain, terrible military commander, exploited by chancers on the make, unable to form friendships.

Outcome - loss of vast Angevin Empire (western part of modern France from Normandy to Pyrenees), economic devastation from exploitative taxation, excommunication and interdict, rebellion, Magna Carta, repudiate Magna Carta with weeks, civil war, London lost, son of French king invited over to be new king, dies prematurely.

I am reminded of something my father wrote many decades ago.. a quick check shows that this has never been stuck on a computer or posted on the internet, so I've just done so. Spoilered for folks who don't like poetry

Spoiler:

The Lay of the Wet Brigade

(how King John won a battle and lost everything else)

They say King John has lost his country's treasure in the Wash
'Tis a most seditious rumour that the King had better quash.
For he led the charge at Mirebeau, when our foes were put to flight,
and we won the day at Mirebeau, so we know that he was right.

A feeling of elation such a victory can bring.
We were dumb with admiration for the prowess of our King.
Through the night we sped to Mirebeau, and we took them by surprise,
and we raised the siege at Mirebeau, and we thought our King was wise.

In no time we forgot that he was petulant and cruel,
and nobody seemed to notice he still acted like a fool.
Many years passed after Mirebeau, ere an argument occurred -
since he won the day at Mirebeau, no-one dare dispute his word.

He had many fine possessions; more he gained upon that day.
But in all the years that passed since then, he frittered them away.
For he dazzled us at Mirebeau, but by now 'tis evident -
when he raised the siege of Mirebeau, all his wisdom had been spent.

My country's hard-won wealth is scattered far across the sand,
and the reason this has happened isn't hard to hunderstand.
For we won a fight at Mirebeau, and the victory was sweet;
but the more I think of Mirebeau, more it seems like a defeat -
but the more I think of Mirebeau, more it seems like a defeat.