Tax the rich... wait, no, not like that! (Winter Fuel Allowance)

[snoozeofreason]

So pension credit only adds £7 a week?

I am not sure that was exactly what I meant (assuming you were responding to my comment). Basically:

• Someone who has recently reached pension age gets £221.20 a week state pension. Such a person would not normally be entitled to pension credit, or to WFA.

• A single pensioner receiving pension credit gets their income topped up to £218.15 per week. They would be entitled to WFA, which is worth either £200 or £300 per year depending on their age (so £3.84 or £5.76 per week).

It is slightly different if they are part of a couple, because pension credit would be slightly less than twice the amount for a single pensioner - on the assumption that two can live more cheaply than one, presumably. No such reduction is applied to state pension. Two state pensioners get two state pensions with no adjustment for their marital status.

It is much more significantly different where the pensioner has other sources of income. These (normally) reduce pension credit payments. They make no difference to state pension payments.

So if the point you were making was that there isn't much difference between someone on pension credit and someone with a full state pension, but no other income, then that's correct.

But a more important takeaway from those figures is that it is not just the rich who are affected by the changes to WFA. I'll admit my first reaction to those changes was that they were a good thing, because the pensioners I find easiest to bring to mind are myself and Mrs. Snooze. We aren't exactly rich, but we aren't worried about keeping warm, and it seems wrong that we would get WFA when there are people of working age who are trying to work out whether to eat or heat their home. But Mrs. Snooze and I have other sources of income besides our state pensions. Someone whose only income was the state pension will be significantly affected by the removal of WFA, even if they get the full amount of state pension (and, as already mentioned, they aren't that much better off than someone who gets pension credit, and therefore does get WFA).

[discovolante]

Well, I almost certainly 'need' the WFA more than my parents (in the sense that my parents are better off than me, not that I'm too poor to heat my (poorly insulated) house*). But I suppose I'm less likely to die or get severely ill from being cold than an elderly person.

*ETA and my parents' house is very well insulated...so well insulated...ooft please can I open a window? Just a crack? Please?

[IvanV]

Not sure how "universal" WFA actually is. I'm a pensioner and I don't get it.

Although everyone eligible for the Winter Fuel Payment in previous years is eligible for a state pension, the WFP is age related, so some state pensioners were not eligible for it on grounds of age. For winter 23/24 you had to be at least 66, and I think at some specific date in Sept 2023. I think that, because for winter 24/25, you will have to be 66 on or before 23 Sept 2024. So there will be some people who turned 66 after 23 Sept 2023, but were actually state pensioners during winter 23/24, and so did not qualify on age grounds.

There are also some exclusions, such as people living in residential care, presumably as they are not liable for a heating bill. There are residential qualifications, and living in Sarf London should mean you don't fall foul of those, as you would if you had emigrated to Canada or something, or were living in Scotland, as there are different arrangements in Scotland. And some people with certain immigration statuses don't get it either.

And then many errors are made in paying people state pensions in this country...

[noggins]

Tax systems can provide for income support through negative rates of taxation. It tends to be income support measures that are particularly prone to not being smooth. But they can likewise be designed to be smooth, just like the taxing for those who don't get income support, by constructing them as negative taxes.

The US does this fairly extensively, via fully refundable tax credits, like those for having children in the family. These are lump sums that are subtracted from your tax return bottom line (tax owed/refund owed). As such, they are available to everyone who otherwise qualify, and offset higher taxes on higher income individuals, or pay out to lower income individuals.

the downside being that everyone has to do a tax return , and its a yearly nightmare (and then a tax-return industry springs up and allies with the right against any simplification)

[dyqik]

Tax systems can provide for income support through negative rates of taxation. It tends to be income support measures that are particularly prone to not being smooth. But they can likewise be designed to be smooth, just like the taxing for those who don't get income support, by constructing them as negative taxes.

The US does this fairly extensively, via fully refundable tax credits, like those for having children in the family. These are lump sums that are subtracted from your tax return bottom line (tax owed/refund owed). As such, they are available to everyone who otherwise qualify, and offset higher taxes on higher income individuals, or pay out to lower income individuals.

the downside being that everyone has to do a tax return , and its a yearly nightmare (and then a tax-return industry springs up and allies with the right against any simplification)

Yes, but it's a downside that was already realized.

[Gfamily]

A little note that the full state pension is dependent on having the right number of years of NI contributions - which may not be achieved by some people with non-standard or disrupted career paths.

[Blackcountryboy]

I am not complaining about losing the WFA, we should never have had it. Jan only has £5,000 OAP, my OAP and works pension is £45,000 before tax (No NI when you are retired). It seems wrong to me, that people less well of than me, could be paying NI for me to have WFA. We feel the cold more now we are old (Jan is 84 in October) I am 90 on Sunday, but we don’t go out so much, I don’t want to go far after dark. At least some of my affluent friends are now too busy complaining about losing the WTF to complain about taxes being too high. To be fair some of them say the same as me.

[Martin_B]

My well off 86-yr-old father has been donating his winter fuel payment to the Trussell Trust. He has asked his other well-off aged friends and relatives where they donate theirs, obtaining the unsurprising mumble in reply.

My father used to organise this: https://www.farnhamlions.org.uk/fundrai ... eslas.html for transferring WFP from people who don't believe they need it to families who do need it but don't get it.

[bjn]

There is also the fact that the winter fuel allowance fills in for profoundly crappy UK housing stock.

Do only old people live in crappy UK housing stock or should everyone get winter fuel allowance? I live in a house with crappy insulation but I earn a very good salary. Should I get a winter fuel allowance?

Ideally you, and everyone else, would get an incentive to insulate your home properly so there was no need for ongoing winter fuel allowances. Investment to reduce the need for ongoing expenditure.

That was going to happen until Cameron junked it as “green crap”. It’s cost the UK economy multiple billions of pounds and left us more vulnerable to the likes of Putin and various other fossil fuel dictatorships. I remember the figure as at least £20 billion (source, The Cleaning Up Podcast).

Spend £5000 and save £46,000 over 25 years by putting solar, batteries and heat pumps into a well insulated newly built house. That beats most investments, insulates you against price volatility and is tax free as well. But house builders are short termist tory donating a..eholes and are kicking and screaming against it.

And the cost of batteries and solar is still going down.

[IvanV]

Home insulation grants are available for houses in council tax bands A to D (A to E in Scotland and Wales). It makes sense to concentrate it on the less well off, like this. Council tax banding will not be a perfect means test, but it is an easy one to apply, and probably doesn't miss many of the deserving.

But this is probably why the most common scam phone call I get is from something calling itself the Energy Information Centre, that wants to insulate my loft with the assistance of a government grant. I can't resist saying, truthfully, "I haven't got a loft", which ends the call. But sometimes they say other things. They recently tried to tempt me with a different government grant which was no longer available. But I have asked them who they are, and at the second attempt got an honest answer. Well, as far as it went, enough to expose them as a scam. The name is that of a limited company. Checking it on Companies House, it is registered at a farm near Halifax. It hasn't traded since it was set up in the 1990s... So that at least is their fake front door, which they use to conceal the scam.

There is currently an issue that previous government grants for insulation have sometimes been used to install spray foam insulation in people's lofts. The fact it was grant-aided made people think it was a government approved system. But when the problems flared up - under the last government - the government has not admitted that. The problem is that if it is not properly done, which is usual, there is a ventilation problem. So condensation can promote rot in the roof timbers. Since checking for adequate ventilation is too complicated, mortgage companies simply refuse to mortgage houses with spray foam insulation, so they are unsellable until you remove it, which costs about twice the installation cost. There are about 250,000 houses in this situation.

[nekomatic]

Since checking for adequate ventilation is too complicated, mortgage companies simply refuse to mortgage houses with spray foam insulation, so they are unsellable until you remove it, which costs about twice the installation cost. There are about 250,000 houses in this situation.

We viewed one once, and after sticking our heads through the loft hatch made polite small talk until we could get the hell out. Checking our judgement with mrs nekomatic’s parents, who are architects, they said it’d need a new roof - but also, if they sprayed the roof with the stuff they probably also filled the cavity with it at the same time. The creepy bit, if one were thinking about being worried about spray foams outgassing subtly toxic fumes rather than just the moisture angle, was that the reason the siblings who were showing us round the place were selling it was that their parents who had lived there had now both died from lingering and unexplained illnesses.

A pity, it was an otherwise lovely 1930’s house in a very cute cul-de-sac of same.

[jdc]

... maybe we'll see a rise in 'winter warmth' banks or something. They probably already exist.

Yep. Councils now have lists of Warm Spaces and Welcome Spaces. Mostly community centres, libraries, and churches.

If you're lucky, they'll have decent wifi and free coffee.

[dyqik]

... maybe we'll see a rise in 'winter warmth' banks or something. They probably already exist.

Yep. Councils now have lists of Warm Spaces and Welcome Spaces. Mostly community centres, libraries, and churches.

If you're lucky, they'll have decent wifi and free coffee.

We have summer cooling centers. And get much colder in winter than the UK. But living without heating is pretty much impossible here, compared to living without AC.

[discovolante]

... maybe we'll see a rise in 'winter warmth' banks or something. They probably already exist.

Yep. Councils now have lists of Warm Spaces and Welcome Spaces. Mostly community centres, libraries, and churches.

If you're lucky, they'll have decent wifi and free coffee.

Ah yes. I was thinking of supplies for people's homes - blankets and that kind of thing. But spaces for people to go to are an option too - do you know if (like homeless shelters) there are staff members of any kind (whether from charities or the council) to assess people's needs, help people apply for emergency grants etc?

[jdc]

... maybe we'll see a rise in 'winter warmth' banks or something. They probably already exist.

Yep. Councils now have lists of Warm Spaces and Welcome Spaces. Mostly community centres, libraries, and churches.

If you're lucky, they'll have decent wifi and free coffee.

Ah yes. I was thinking of supplies for people's homes - blankets and that kind of thing. But spaces for people to go to are an option too - do you know if (like homeless shelters) there are staff members of any kind (whether from charities or the council) to assess people's needs, help people apply for emergency grants etc?

Some places have advice workers on site, I know one centre locally has 3 advice workers based there. We have one that comes in from there to do half a day at our place once a week, and I guess most places will at least have someone who can signpost people to these services.

I've not heard of anywhere that's supplying blankets etc for people's homes. I'll ask around if I remember, it's bound to come in handy at some point.

[discovolante]

Yep. Councils now have lists of Warm Spaces and Welcome Spaces. Mostly community centres, libraries, and churches.

If you're lucky, they'll have decent wifi and free coffee.

Ah yes. I was thinking of supplies for people's homes - blankets and that kind of thing. But spaces for people to go to are an option too - do you know if (like homeless shelters) there are staff members of any kind (whether from charities or the council) to assess people's needs, help people apply for emergency grants etc?

Some places have advice workers on site, I know one centre locally has 3 advice workers based there. We have one that comes in from there to do half a day at our place once a week, and I guess most places will at least have someone who can signpost people to these services.

I've not heard of anywhere that's supplying blankets etc for people's homes. I'll ask around if I remember, it's bound to come in handy at some point.

Sorry I forgot to reply to this. Thanks for the info. I'm pretty out of touch with the specifics of the kinds of services that are available locally these days because my job covers the whole country, so I end up referring/signposting people who need help with things like that to CABs or colleagues who work in particular areas (and not all but most of the people I spend time with on a regular basis out of work are doing relatively OK financially). I'm sure what's available will vary massively from place to place but it's worth keeping in mind if I need to try and get some help for someone over winter. So cheers

[Tristan]

The Tories have identified the real victims of the Winter Fuel Allowance cuts. Gold Rolex owning pensioners apparently. https://x.com/conservatives/status/1842 ... 23595?s=46

IMG_0149.jpeg (47.38 KiB) Viewed 8715 times

[lpm]

That is not a gold rolex.

It is a £10 market stall watch.

I've no evidence it is a £10 watch and you have no evidence it is a gold rolex. Which is the point. STOP LETTING TWITTER DUMB DOWN THE WORLD WITH EVIDENCE-FREE TRIVIA.

[Tristan]

That is not a gold rolex.

It is a £10 market stall watch.

I've no evidence it is a £10 watch and you have no evidence it is a gold rolex. Which is the point. STOP LETTING TWITTER DUMB DOWN THE WORLD WITH EVIDENCE-FREE TRIVIA.

It is likely a Rolex Tridor. A more niche Rolex so unlikely to be one that’s faked. Though if it is fake then it would still cost hundreds if not over a grand. You won’t find a fake Tridor on some dodgy market stand.

[El Pollo Diablo]

That is not a gold rolex.

It is a £10 market stall watch.

I've no evidence it is a £10 watch and you have no evidence it is a gold rolex. Which is the point. STOP LETTING TWITTER DUMB DOWN THE WORLD WITH EVIDENCE-FREE TRIVIA.

You're about 15 years too late to start battling against that, lpm

[Stranger Mouse]

That is not a gold rolex.

It is a £10 market stall watch.

I've no evidence it is a £10 watch and you have no evidence it is a gold rolex. Which is the point. STOP LETTING TWITTER DUMB DOWN THE WORLD WITH EVIDENCE-FREE TRIVIA.

You're about 15 years too late to start battling against that, lpm

We would also rightly criticise right wing gobshites for scanning the background in any video of someone claiming disability benefit or universal credit and detailing estimated costs of these items.

[Tristan]

That is not a gold rolex.

It is a £10 market stall watch.

I've no evidence it is a £10 watch and you have no evidence it is a gold rolex. Which is the point. STOP LETTING TWITTER DUMB DOWN THE WORLD WITH EVIDENCE-FREE TRIVIA.

You're about 15 years too late to start battling against that, lpm

We would also rightly criticise right wing gobshites for scanning the background in any video of someone claiming disability benefit or universal credit and detailing estimated costs of these items.

I mean, they also included a former teacher (who presumably either has a reasonable occupational pension or needs to own their own financial decisions). They include someone using a coffee pod machine which are much more expensive than instant coffee. These are not people who have to "choose to eat or choose to heat". If you want to make a convincing case to keep the WFA this isn't the way to go about it.

Reminds me a bit of Jack Monroe grifting for income from Patreon whilst wearing a £9k Breitling.

[bob sterman]

The "Rolex" is all over social media.

https://leftfootforward.org/2024/10/tor ... fuel-cuts/

As an aisde - if older generations are going to criticse the young for spending on lattes etc - I think coffee pod useage by pensioners is fair game.

[Woodchopper]

As an aisde - if older generations are going to criticse the young for spending on lattes etc

Is that a thing outside social media? The older people I know seem to be aware of the difficulties that young people face in the cost of housing etc

[jimbob]

Article in the Telegraph

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/tax/l ... es-budget/

Julie and John Macrae always dreamed of spending their twilight years sailing the world.



The couple had planned meticulously for retirement, investing in 60 buy-to-let properties in and around Colchester to supplement the pensions built up from their day jobs.





What Mr and Mrs Macrae didn’t anticipate was being forced to sell up their boat and go back to full-time working at the ages of 67 and 77 respectively.

I did see someone say that at least the Telegraph is now concerned for people on small boats.