Anti-semitic pogroms in Europe in 2024

[Tristan]

Sickening to see this on the streets of a major European capital, but sadly not surprising: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/cwyge1587e5t

This is what "Globalise the Intifada" means.

[bjn]

From the BBC link….

Videos posted to social media appear to show Maccabi Tel Aviv fans chanting racist slogans about Arabs and Palestine, as well as climbing on a building to tear down a Palestinian flag on display.

Social media users said the videos were from before the attacks on Israelis. Footage from the stadium also appeared to show Maccabi fans jeering and whistling during a minute's silence for those killed in floods in Valencia.

So Israel has racist football hooligans, not just Millwall.

[Grumble]

Not sure trouble between football fans counts as a pogrom. Even when innocent parties get caught up in it.

[Tristan]

Not sure trouble between football fans counts as a pogrom. Even when innocent parties get caught up in it.

I mean, you have the mayor of Amsterdam saying that this brought to mind pogroms against Jews in Dutch and European history. This wasn’t just “trouble between football fans”.

[Grumble]

Not sure trouble between football fans counts as a pogrom. Even when innocent parties get caught up in it.

I mean, you have the mayor of Amsterdam saying that this brought to mind pogroms against Jews in Dutch and European history. This wasn’t just “trouble between football fans”.

I’m sure it does bring it to mind, it’s clearly troubling, but it’s not an actual pogrom. Hopefully the authorities can clamp down on this and stop it getting to that level. It’s not a problem that will go away by itself.

[El Pollo Diablo]

I mean, it was pretty much trouble between football fans, but with a political edge. Contingents of the Israelis went round the city removing Palestinian flags and burning them, chanted "f.ck Palestine" and "all Arabs need to die", kicked the sh.t out of a taxi driver who confronted them, and demolished the car of another, and acted like total c.nts at the match itself. Then, when retaliation struck, made sure that the focus was on that rather than their terrible behaviour prior to that.

It's hooliganism from the Israelis, plain and simple. Everyone rightly decried it when English fans acted like c.nts at Euro 2020, beating the sh.t out of Danish and Italian fans. It shouldn't be tolerated from anyone else either. It's certainly not a f.cking pogrom.

[Tristan]

I mean, it was pretty much trouble between football fans, but with a political edge. Contingents of the Israelis went round the city removing Palestinian flags and burning them, chanted "f.ck Palestine" and "all Arabs need to die", kicked the sh.t out of a taxi driver who confronted them, and demolished the car of another, and acted like total c.nts at the match itself. Then, when retaliation struck, made sure that the focus was on that rather than their terrible behaviour prior to that.

It's hooliganism from the Israelis, plain and simple. Everyone rightly decried it when English fans acted like c.nts at Euro 2020, beating the sh.t out of Danish and Italian fans. It shouldn't be tolerated from anyone else either. It's certainly not a f.cking pogrom.

Was there terrible behaviour before? Yes. And that should be condemned too.

But to call what happened last night "hooliganism from the Israelis, plain and simple" is ridiculous and misses out a huge element of what was going on. The Dutch government is claiming the violence was pre-meditated and anti-semitic. They were looking for Jews.

[Gfamily]

I mean, it was pretty much trouble between football fans, but with a political edge. Contingents of the Israelis went round the city removing Palestinian flags and burning them, chanted "f.ck Palestine" and "all Arabs need to die", kicked the sh.t out of a taxi driver who confronted them, and demolished the car of another, and acted like total c.nts at the match itself.

Was there terrible behaviour before? Yes. And that should be condemned too.
But to call what happened last night "hooliganism from the Israelis, plain and simple" is ridiculous

Interesting that your first response wasn't to condemn the contingent of supporters of Tel Aviv Maccabi that attacked what they saw as support for the Palestinian people
Was that just 'high spirits' ?

[Tristan]

Interesting that your first response wasn't to condemn the contingent of supporters of Tel Aviv Maccabi that attacked what they saw as support for the Palestinian people
Was that just 'high spirits' ?

Interesting that most responses here so far was to masssovely downplay or just ignore pre-meditated antisemitic attacks. Was that just ‘high spirits’?

[bjn]

I think it was more a reaction to your post completely ignoring the Israeli football hooligans rioting, racism ans violence and screaming “pogrom!” as your first reaction, when it was a lot more complicated than that.

[Tristan]

Nonsense. There has absolutely been minimisation of and attempts to explain away what happened.

What some Israeli fans did was indeed bad. What happened after was on a different scale entirely. It was premeditated and targeted at Jews.

[Grumble]

Saying something isn’t a pogrom isn’t an attempt to minimise but to be more accurate. Calling what happened here a pogrom risks minimising the actual pogroms.

[Tristan]

“It's hooliganism from the Israelis, plain and simple.”
“So Israel has racist football hooligans, not just Millwall.”

No attempts to deflect or minimise there?

“it was pretty much trouble between football fans”

Oh and if you’re so interested in accuracy why don’t you ask yourself and EPD how many of those attacking Jews and Israelis were actually Ajax fans.

[bob sterman]

Saying something isn’t a pogrom isn’t an attempt to minimise but to be more accurate. Calling what happened here a pogrom risks minimising the actual pogroms.

Yes - the words of Femke Halsema, the mayor of Amsterdam were more appropriate who didn't call it a pogrom but said "I can easily understand that this brings back memories of pogroms". Similar to the way the US described the riots at Dagestan airport in 2023 as "reminiscent of pogroms".

So yes - don't minimize historical pogroms by over-using the label. But also - don't ignore reminders.

[Rich Scopie]

I don’t think anyone’s pointed out that Ajax is a club with strong Jewish roots, and is considered “Jewish” in the same way that Tottenham Hotspur is. Fans wear it as a badge of honour. In the past, Hava Nagila has been a downloadable ringtone from the club’s official site. The idea that Ajax fans set out to commit anti-Semitic acts of violence is faintly ludicrous.

[Tristan]

The idea that Ajax fans set out to commit anti-Semitic acts of violence is faintly ludicrous.

Exactly. This is not “trouble between football fans” as others here have claimed.

[Grumble]

The idea that Ajax fans set out to commit anti-Semitic acts of violence is faintly ludicrous.

Exactly. This is not “trouble between football fans” as others here have claimed.

Fair enough it was worse than that. When I went to read the link you posted, the salient thing for me was that they were going around looking for people wearing the “wrong” football kit. I never go to a match wearing kit because sometimes you can become a target which is why that stood out to me. I didn’t see the bit about them asking other people if they were Jewish.

[bjn]

“So Israel has racist football hooligans, not just Millwall.”

No attempts to deflect or minimise there?

So you are saying that Maccabi fans didn't act in a racist manner and committed unprovoked violence?

[Tristan]

The idea that Ajax fans set out to commit anti-Semitic acts of violence is faintly ludicrous.

Exactly. This is not “trouble between football fans” as others here have claimed.

Fair enough it was worse than that. When I went to read the link you posted, the salient thing for me was that they were going around looking for people wearing the “wrong” football kit. I never go to a match wearing kit because sometimes you can become a target which is why that stood out to me. I didn’t see the bit about them asking other people if they were Jewish.

For others that didn't see that bit:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/ckgv4mdr9y8o

"They shouted 'Jewish, Jewish, IDF, IDF',”

"Some Israeli football fans said they were ordered to show their passports when they were set upon."

"Afterwards, they said they saw men yelling antisemitic threats and stamping on an Israeli man. They intervened, helped the man to his feet, and went to leave.

Shortly after, a group asked the men if they were Jewish, and Aaron said that they were British.

“But they said ‘you helped the Jew’, and he punched me in my face and broke my glasses," Aaron said."

[Tristan]

“So Israel has racist football hooligans, not just Millwall.”

No attempts to deflect or minimise there?

So you are saying that Maccabi fans didn't act in a racist manner and committed unprovoked violence?

Where have I said that?

[Tristan]

I guess it’s open season on catholics in Glasgow now right? That’s how this works isn’t it?

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[Grumble]

This is your reminder that when I talk about trouble between football fans I’m not actually minimising anything.

[Tristan]

This is your reminder that when I talk about trouble between football fans I’m not actually minimising anything.

Well actually you are. It wasn’t primarily Ajax fans involved in the attacks and they didn’t seem to care about whether the Jews they were attacking were Maccabi fans or not.

And listen, I get that you don’t like the use of the word pogrom. I guess it’s only really a pogrom if it comes from the Pogrome region. I guess this was just a sparkling Jew hunt instead.

[Allo V Psycho]

I guess it’s open season on catholics in Glasgow now right? That’s how this works isn’t it?

I'm a Glaswegian, and live close enough to Celtic Park to hear this happening, but I have absolutely no idea what you mean by this?

[Tristan]

I guess it’s open season on catholics in Glasgow now right? That’s how this works isn’t it?

I'm a Glaswegian, and live close enough to Celtic Park to hear this happening, but I have absolutely no idea what you mean by this?

Well the response to Jew hunts earlier in this thread seems to have been "But the Maccabi fans provoked it, so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ ".

So presumably going after Catholics in Glasgow as a result of their behaviour at that match is fine too.