Anti-semitic pogroms in Europe in 2024

[Allo V Psycho]

I guess it’s open season on catholics in Glasgow now right? That’s how this works isn’t it?

I'm a Glaswegian, and live close enough to Celtic Park to hear this happening, but I have absolutely no idea what you mean by this?

Well the response to Jew hunts earlier in this thread seems to have been "But the Maccabi fans provoked it, so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ ".

So presumably going after Catholics in Glasgow as a result of their behaviour at that match is fine too.

No it is never fine, and yes, it is a thing that happens, including sectarian violence, which has in the past included murder. That a consequence of something is likely to happen doesn't mean it is a good thing, or an approved thing.

I think humans have a tendency to tribalism, and once tribalism is established, then humans, especially young men, have a tendency to violence and provocation. In some circumstances, the tribal dividing lines may seem obvious, like skin colour, but in the absence of this, humans will just find some way to 'other' some section of society. In this case it is a division between two Christian sects: elsewhere it might be between Sunni and Shia, and so on, endlessly.

In Glasgow members of both groups provoke each other endlessly, knowing that it will exacerbate tensions, so the provocation is not guilt free. The green brigade will wave banners and sing songs about the British empire to provoke a reaction from the proddies. The Orange Order will deliberately route a march past a Catholic church, and play and sing offensive tunes about the pope to provoke the papes. Each side is hoping to provoke a disproportionately violent response from the other side, then they will blame them for the violence.

Neither the provocation or the reaction are good things, but there is a degree of inevitability about them. Neither side has a monopoly of virtue or vice: many, perhaps most, sensible adults in each community regard the sectarianism with dismay.

I do not pretend to know what happened in the Netherlands in any detail. I spent some time at the weekend reading about the history and etymology of pogroms following your OP, and whether what happened there would qualify as a pogrom or not still seems hard for me to decide, since I don't know with any confidence the nature and scale of the events that transpired.

[Grumble]

This is your reminder that when I talk about trouble between football fans I’m not actually minimising anything.

Well actually you are. It wasn’t primarily Ajax fans involved in the attacks and they didn’t seem to care about whether the Jews they were attacking were Maccabi fans or not.

And listen, I get that you don’t like the use of the word pogrom. I guess it’s only really a pogrom if it comes from the Pogrome region. I guess this was just a sparkling Jew hunt instead.

You don’t seem to think trouble between football fans is serious. I do.

[Tristan]

This is your reminder that when I talk about trouble between football fans I’m not actually minimising anything.

Well actually you are. It wasn’t primarily Ajax fans involved in the attacks and they didn’t seem to care about whether the Jews they were attacking were Maccabi fans or not.

And listen, I get that you don’t like the use of the word pogrom. I guess it’s only really a pogrom if it comes from the Pogrome region. I guess this was just a sparkling Jew hunt instead.

You don’t seem to think trouble between football fans is serious. I do.

You keep saying "between" football fans. What involvement did Ajax fans have in this?

[bjn]

The Maccabit fans assaulted a Somali taxi driver and destroyed property around Amsterdam. Down playing that as football fans high spirits is a tad on the nose. If a bunch of visiting Somali football fans did the equivalent and were chanting "Death to the Jews!", assaulting Jewish taxi drivers and burning jewish symbols, would you be calling it a pogrom?

FWIW, apart from those defending themselves and their friends from racist assaults by Maccabi supporting thugs, anyone inflicting violence on Maccabi fans is reprehensible, and anyone looking for jews to bash is as reprehensible as the Maccabi fans bashing a Somali for being a muslim.

But apparently Isrealis can only ever be sinned against and can never actually sin.

[Tristan]

The Maccabit fans assaulted a Somali taxi driver and destroyed property around Amsterdam. Down playing that as football fans high spirits is a tad on the nose.

If anyone has downplayed as football fan high spirits then it’s certainly not me. Though others in this thread have certainly been referring to this just as “trouble between football fans”.

Anyway, I’ve yet to see any evidence of trouble “between” fans. Ajax fans haven’t been mentioned as far as I can see in any reporting.

I said earlier and I repeat now, what Maccabi fans did should absolutely be condemned.

The scale of what happened the following day, which others have tried to minimise, was on another level. It was a Jew hunt and it was preplanned.

[Grumble]

High spirits? I wouldn’t class hunting people across a city and committing violent assault as high spirits. It kicked off at a football match. Football has a long and serious history of being associated with violence.

[Tristan]

Again, I’m not the one who brought “high spirits” into this discussion.

[bob sterman]

Whether or not this started as "trouble between football fans" - the visiting fans have long since left and violence is continuing...

https://edition.cnn.com/2024/11/12/euro ... index.html

[Tristan]

Whether or not this started as "trouble between football fans" - the visiting fans have long since left and violence is continuing...

https://edition.cnn.com/2024/11/12/euro ... index.html

I’m sure someone else from this thread will be along in a moment to make excuses for it.

[raven]

If it was 'just' between football fans it would be less worrying. Less worrying, but still terrible -- because football violence tends to occur around match time and it's more predictable and limited.

This kind of thing has more potential to spiral out of control, I think. The Maccabi fans afaics targetted anyone with a Palestinian flag, and with the taxi driver perhaps either someone who looked Muslim or someone who stood up to them. That is not targetting rival fans, it's targetting people you've identified as the 'other side'. Indiscriminantly, it seems like. This is not a good thing.

Neither is harrassing and attacking people in the street because you've identified them as Jewish. Which is a reminder of a lot of terrible things in European history. And makes Jewish communities, with good reason, afraid.

I try to be sensitve to that fear. If you're not Jewish, which I'm not, you don't live with antisemitism in the same way as white people don't live with racism and it's easy to forget it exists and how bad it is. But when I was a teenager I got a tiny taste of it that I've never forgotten: some snot-nosed 11 year old who had probably never met anyone Jewish called me 'a f.cking Jew' in passing. Presumably because I was clever and had a big nose, idk? Antisemitism is very much out there still.

So, of course, are a lot of other flavours of bigotry. People are very tribal.

[Iron Magpie]

Has nobody seen the full video from the independent Dutch journalist that followed the Tel-Aviv fans around the city?

Maybe they have and is why this thread has gone quiet......

[bjn]

I have.

[Tristan]

Has nobody seen the full video from the independent Dutch journalist that followed the Tel-Aviv fans around the city?

Maybe they have and is why this thread has gone quiet......

Which one?