After Corbyn

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Who will be the next Labour leader?

Angela Rayner
4
5%
John McDonnell
2
2%
Keir Starmer
43
52%
Rebecca Long-Bailey
8
10%
Emily Thornberry
0
No votes
Clive Lewis
1
1%
Yvette Cooper
17
20%
Laura Pidcock
1
1%
Clive Lewis
0
No votes
Tony Blair
7
8%
 
Total votes: 83

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GeenDienst
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Re: After Corbyn

Post by GeenDienst » Tue Dec 17, 2019 12:39 pm

El Pollo Diablo wrote:
Tue Dec 17, 2019 11:58 am
Looks like Phase 2 of the "Can the left get into government" investigation will put the Corbyn/Brexit excuses to one side....
Doubt that. They will make sure the blame lies with Starmer, so as to keep Momentum onside/less offside.

For phase 3-9, you're just going to have to wait for enough of Momentum's membership to get bored and drift away.
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secret squirrel
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Re: After Corbyn

Post by secret squirrel » Tue Dec 17, 2019 12:52 pm

History tells us that for Labour to get into government they need to be led by someone who combines almost unholy political charisma with the politics of John Major.

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GeenDienst
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Re: After Corbyn

Post by GeenDienst » Tue Dec 17, 2019 1:02 pm

Right up to "no, it doesn't".
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El Pollo Diablo
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Re: After Corbyn

Post by El Pollo Diablo » Tue Dec 17, 2019 1:02 pm

The 1997 manifesto promised renationalisation of the railways and a committee to look into bringing in proportional representation.
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Re: After Corbyn

Post by secret squirrel » Tue Dec 17, 2019 1:07 pm

You're both right of course. I was being facetious.

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GeenDienst
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Re: After Corbyn

Post by GeenDienst » Tue Dec 17, 2019 1:10 pm

Mind you, John Major looks f.cking saintly now.
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Gentleman Jim
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Re: After Corbyn

Post by Gentleman Jim » Tue Dec 17, 2019 1:19 pm

Quick check with Comrades in various constituencies - Favourite among ACTUAL members (NOT unions) is Long-Bailey
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secret squirrel
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Re: After Corbyn

Post by secret squirrel » Tue Dec 17, 2019 1:22 pm

GeenDienst wrote:
Tue Dec 17, 2019 1:10 pm
Mind you, John Major looks f.cking saintly now.
He was one of the better ones.

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GeenDienst
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Re: After Corbyn

Post by GeenDienst » Tue Dec 17, 2019 1:40 pm

And you're thinking of Edwina.

Yes, you are.
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plodder
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Re: After Corbyn

Post by plodder » Tue Dec 17, 2019 1:40 pm

Very important to have a northerner and not a midlandser </Jess Phillips>

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GeenDienst
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Re: After Corbyn

Post by GeenDienst » Tue Dec 17, 2019 1:44 pm

Their contest or be a platform for re-energising themselves, a new start, moving on.

Or they can wrap it in apathy, tied up with string of tedium and finally bound with the tape of irrelevance.

Hmmm.
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P.J. Denyer
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Re: After Corbyn

Post by P.J. Denyer » Wed Dec 18, 2019 10:22 am

TopBadger wrote:
Tue Dec 17, 2019 10:56 am
headshot wrote:
Tue Dec 17, 2019 10:44 am
I've joined the Labour Party to have a vote.

Jess Phillips would probably be great, but would never win an election because a) she's a woman, and b) she has a Brummie accent and people won't vote for someone with a Brummie accent.

The electorate that really that thick...and I say that as a Brummie (albeit sans accent).
Don't agree with a) but do agree with b) - she talks sense, but the accent isn't going to help her (I'm a black country lad myself). I think she'd make a killer deputy though.

I'd like to see Yvette Cooper as leader - she's clear, concise and competent in a way that doesn't come off as annoying (to me at least). She reminds me of an awesome teacher I had at school who everyone respected and no-one messed with. That's what they need.

I think a strong, smart woman facing Johnson at PMQs could be very interesting. It's no secret that his attitudes toward women are, shall we say,'not great' (admittedly also true of his attitudes toward a lot of people). If he appears to be condescending trying to bully and belittle a female opposition leader with a (for want of a better word) working class accent it's going to lose him some support. If he appears to be condescending trying to bully and belittle a female opposition leader with a working class accent and failing it's going to lose him a lot of support.

I'm starting to think favourably of Jess Phillips, I think she'd get under his skin and be able to skewer him as needed. Johnson is good at elections but has shown precious little aptitude at practical politics, what Labour need is a leader who is going to hold him to account, publicly, and in a way people are going to find at least a bit interesting. I'm sure she has the wits, but think she might have the necessary charisma too.

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Re: After Corbyn

Post by PeteB » Wed Dec 18, 2019 10:36 am

Gentleman Jim wrote:
Tue Dec 17, 2019 1:19 pm
Quick check with Comrades in various constituencies - Favourite among ACTUAL members (NOT unions) is Long-Bailey

Yep - I've just joined the Labour Party and found the same - they just blame Brexit for the election loss - still love Corbyn, and are all lined up behind Long-Bailey

My initial idea was Yvette Cooper, but don't really know a lot about the various factions yet

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GeenDienst
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Re: After Corbyn

Post by GeenDienst » Wed Dec 18, 2019 11:25 am

PeteB wrote:
Wed Dec 18, 2019 10:36 am
Gentleman Jim wrote:
Tue Dec 17, 2019 1:19 pm
Quick check with Comrades in various constituencies - Favourite among ACTUAL members (NOT unions) is Long-Bailey

Yep - I've just joined the Labour Party and found the same - they just blame Brexit for the election loss - still love Corbyn, and are all lined up behind Long-Bailey

My initial idea was Yvette Cooper, but don't really know a lot about the various factions yet
Precisely. The Corbynists are never, ever going to correctly blame themselves for inflicting the worst Labour defeat while we've all been alive. It's going to be Long Bailey, because she is the Momentum and Corbynist candidate, and because once she's in nothing has to change, including the result of the next election. And they'll find something or someone else to blame for that, as well.

Long Bailey does have one challenge if she is to reunite the party. What will she do with the 4 Ms? She is of that clique and I don't think she'll have the courage or character to ditch them from her inner circle - and that would be a very clear signal of Corbynist business as usual, and would present a very easy target for the Tories that f.ck all has changed.

Cooper (especially, voted for the Iraq war 300 years or whatever ago) and Phillips have no chance. Long, long road ahead for Labour.

Although we do need to separate "members" from "activists" in this regard. It's the latter who run the constituencies.
Last edited by GeenDienst on Wed Dec 18, 2019 11:31 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: After Corbyn

Post by minusnine » Wed Dec 18, 2019 11:28 am

If he appears to be condescending trying to bully and belittle a female opposition leader with a (for want of a better word) working class accent it's going to lose him some support.
After his treatment of labour MPs who were friends of Jo Cox, after the last 3 years in the US, and after last thursday, isn't a citation very much required for this statement? We all know what he is, but the f.ckers voted for him anyway, don't see how that changes anytime soon.
He needs to fail before anyone will change their mind, but that's in his hands with his majority, we've had plenty of PMs who were worse than their oppos in PMQs and it rarely did them any harm.

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Re: After Corbyn

Post by PeteB » Wed Dec 18, 2019 11:37 am

GeenDienst wrote:
Wed Dec 18, 2019 11:25 am
Precisely. The Corbynists are never, ever going to correctly blame themselves for inflicting the worst Labour defeat while we've all been alive. It's going to be Long Bailey, because she is the Momentum and Corbynist candidate, and because once she's in nothing has to change, including the result of the next election. And they'll find something or someone else to blame for that, as well.
If things go really badly over the next few years, I could conceivably see Long Bailey being elected - just worried she would make a mess of things and let the Tories back in and everyone would remember for a long time what a mess Labour made of it when they got a chance.

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GeenDienst
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Re: After Corbyn

Post by GeenDienst » Wed Dec 18, 2019 12:24 pm

Why Thorberry should probably be leader, and why she won't be:
She likened the party’s decision to back an election to “crackers voting for Christmas” because it gave Johnson a chance to fight an election on a subject of his choosing at a time of his choosing.

“Listening to Labour colleagues on the media over the last week, I have repeatedly heard the refrain that the problem we faced last Thursday was that ‘this became the Brexit election’. To which I can only say I look forward to their tweets of shock when next Wednesday’s lunch features turkey and Brussels sprouts … I wrote to the leader’s office warning it would be ‘an act of catastrophic political folly’ to vote for the election, and set out a lengthy draft narrative explaining why we should not go along with it.

“I argued that the single issue of Brexit should not be enough to give Johnson a five-year mandate to enact his agenda on every issue. Instead, I said we should insist on a referendum on his proposed deal, to get the issue of Brexit out of the way before any general election.”
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Iron Magpie
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Re: After Corbyn

Post by Iron Magpie » Wed Dec 18, 2019 12:58 pm

GeenDienst wrote:
Wed Dec 18, 2019 11:25 am

Cooper (especially, voted for the Iraq war 300 years or whatever ago)
I think the detected sarcasm in the above shows you are a little out of touch. Iraq is something that people remember very clearly because of the amount of dead that resulted plus the fact that it was over this that a certain T.Blair lied to parliament. Even those that are too young to remember it will be taught about it by our wonderful press. It is a toxic issue and one that will be thrown at Labour for many years to come and the only answer to it is to be able to say, "Nothing to do with me Guv."
If the next labour leader is unable to say that they are doomed before they start.

On another issue I think Labour lost heavily because of A) Brexit...If Labour just had the good sense to follow Corbyns lead on this they would have negated it as an issue (as in 2017) but the right of the party just had to stick its oar in because they have zero self awareness about how that stance was viewed in the labour heartlands and ...B) because of the perception that Corbyn was extreme left even though his policies would seem softish left in a lot of Europe. Not much to be done about that as it is what it is but we can learn from it and elect a leader that does not carry the same kind of baggage as Corbyn did.

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GeenDienst
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Re: After Corbyn

Post by GeenDienst » Wed Dec 18, 2019 1:12 pm

Hve you noticed how absolutely nobody throws Iraq at Labour except Labour? Did it escape you that T Blair has been out of UK party politics for a while now? You're going to have to get over all this, one day. Those MPs are where almost all of your talent lies.

And this...
On another issue I think Labour lost heavily because of A) Brexit...If Labour just had the good sense to follow Corbyns lead on this they would have negated it as an issue (as in 2017) but the right of the party just had to stick its oar in because they have zero self awareness about how that stance was viewed in the labour heartlands and ...B) because of the perception that Corbyn was extreme left even though his policies would seem softish left in a lot of Europe.
Pretending not to be on one side of the other would have negated the issue? This is where the delusions live on that will keep Labour out of power for the foreseeable ever. Labour never, at any time, had a policy on the EU that was anything other than disingenuous, lying b.llsh.t. Even Gardiner, never the sharpest tool in even the dullest shed, saw through it and correctly described it as "bollocks". And we had Corbyn) the 40-year lexiter, remember, who voted against pretty much everything to do with the EU) pretending to be neutral, which people say through in 0.01263 seconds, and filed him away even more as dishonest, untrustworthy, weak and indecisive - and look at the polling - it was those issues that killed Corbyn as a contender for PM. Every age group rated Johnson higher as a PM.

Thornberry has stated the crashingly obvious today, that Corbyn and his little helpers handed this election to Johnson on the ground Johnson wanted to fight on, at the time he wanted to fight it.

It wasn't Brexit. It was Corbyn, and those who kept him there against all the evidence of what was going to happen. It was you.
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El Pollo Diablo
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Re: After Corbyn

Post by El Pollo Diablo » Wed Dec 18, 2019 1:23 pm

At least 90% of the electorate no longer gives even a tiny f.ck about Iraq. Not a teeny, teeny tiny, tiny little ickle wickle f.ck.

Note that other MPs who voted for the Iraq war include a certain B Johnson, T May, D Cameron, G Osborne, G Brown, L Hoyle, J Bercow, and A Burnham. Lots and lots of other senior political figures, who have managed to avoid being tainted with their vote on the issue. Tainted by other things, perhaps, but not by that.
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El Pollo Diablo
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Re: After Corbyn

Post by El Pollo Diablo » Wed Dec 18, 2019 1:32 pm

Iron Magpie wrote:
Wed Dec 18, 2019 12:58 pm
On another issue I think Labour lost heavily because of A) Brexit...If Labour just had the good sense to follow Corbyns lead on this they would have negated it as an issue (as in 2017) but the right of the party just had to stick its oar in because they have zero self awareness about how that stance was viewed in the labour heartlands
This is total, unmitigated, steaming, powerfully odorous horseshit. If Labour had followed Corbyn's lead on this, they would have been a Brexit party. And they then would have lost my vote, and the vote of many of the two thirds of Labour supporters who also supported remain. The loss of MPs would have been far, far higher, because people like me would not have supported a Brexit party. The European election result would have been continued, for Labour, into the general election.

The problem was not that Labour eventually ended up at a second referendum position, it was that it took a f.cking age to get there, because Corbyn had to go on a f.cking "journey", and on the way they had various positions describing themselves as both a remain party and a leave party, so neither remain nor leave voters believed it was either.

Labour were in a tricky place with Brexit, but the position they torturously ended up in was total drivel and not worthy even to be buried in the desert with that old ET game.
Mike Patton wrote:"You overdo it sometimes. There I am, peeing on Axl Rose’s teleprompter." He looks rueful: "I didn’t really have to do that."

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Re: After Corbyn

Post by plodder » Wed Dec 18, 2019 3:22 pm

Correct. There was no clear message, or vision, or strategy or any of the other things that constitute leadership.

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GeenDienst
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Re: After Corbyn

Post by GeenDienst » Wed Dec 18, 2019 3:42 pm

El Pollo Diablo wrote:
Wed Dec 18, 2019 1:32 pm
...And they then would have lost my vote, and the vote of many of the two thirds of Labour supporters who also supported remain...
When is the penny going to drop that Labour can't ever out-UKIP the Tories?
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Iron Magpie
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Re: After Corbyn

Post by Iron Magpie » Wed Dec 18, 2019 4:23 pm

Do any of you saying that nobody mentions Iraq ever go on social media...FB, Insta…? I spend far too much time on there on various politics pages (both left right centre and numpty aka BP/UKIP) and a sh.t ton of different gossip pages and over and over and over again Iraq is brought up by anti-labour commenters. Therefore from that experience I can only say that you should get out more or go to pages where you are not really welcome and you would see that I am not wrong on this. Plus the fact that my fingers are weary from typing rebuttals to it by way of saying in favour of Corbyn...Nothing to do with him guv...EPD you bring up others that voted for Iraq but apart from Bozo which of them are currently in the news? And I think we all know by now that Bozo could literally take a dump in the queens handbag and the press would blame the queen.
Yes labours message on Brexit was too uncertain and although it might have led to a few voting differently if they had carried on with the 2017 message, the losses would not have been so great as they were. Look at the lib dems with their stance....they got annihilated too and at least Labours leader didn't lose his seat...
I get that Corbyns image was a problem and I hoped that the actual truth about him would seep out rather than the daily mail manufactured image but I did not foresee the massive cheating campaign by other tory supporters spouting lie after lie along with some of the most dire reporting I've ever seen coming out of the BBC. Maybe that was naïve but its done now so not going to dwell on it.

BTW, There always are many reasons why people vote the way they do...these two that I have highlighted are just what I think are the two major reasons. Not dismissing all others at all.

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Iron Magpie
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Re: After Corbyn

Post by Iron Magpie » Wed Dec 18, 2019 4:28 pm

Just heard that out of 54 former English Labour seats lost 51 voted leave in 2016. Still think I'm wrong...?

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