After Corbyn

Discussions about serious topics, for serious people
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Who will be the next Labour leader?

Angela Rayner
4
5%
John McDonnell
2
2%
Keir Starmer
42
51%
Rebecca Long-Bailey
8
10%
Emily Thornberry
0
No votes
Clive Lewis
1
1%
Yvette Cooper
17
21%
Laura Pidcock
1
1%
Clive Lewis
0
No votes
Tony Blair
7
9%
 
Total votes: 82

plodder
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Re: After Corbyn

Post by plodder » Wed Jan 15, 2020 12:25 pm

What's so upsetting about her referencing Labour's proud and long-standing internationalist outlook and trying to use that as a way to bridge divisions caused by the referendum?

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GeenDienst
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Re: After Corbyn

Post by GeenDienst » Wed Jan 15, 2020 12:28 pm

As soon as she does that I'll be happy to read about it.
Just tell 'em I'm broke and don't come round here no more.

plodder
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Re: After Corbyn

Post by plodder » Wed Jan 15, 2020 12:37 pm

That's what the link you just furiously posted said though.

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GeenDienst
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Re: After Corbyn

Post by GeenDienst » Wed Jan 15, 2020 12:40 pm

The f.ck it did. She can f.ck right off.
Just tell 'em I'm broke and don't come round here no more.

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Bird on a Fire
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Re: After Corbyn

Post by Bird on a Fire » Wed Jan 15, 2020 12:52 pm

GeenDienst wrote:
Wed Jan 15, 2020 12:40 pm
The f.ck it did. She can f.ck right off.
The quote from your link says
For Labour internationalism has become just about being in the EU.

We’ve paid lip service to our proud internationalist history but without ever explaining what that meant for the future. Because we’ve been locked in a corrosive debate solely focused on remain or leave.

One of the problems with the referendum was that there was no story about our place in the world. They said we were a small nation with a proud history of punching above our weight. We said we’ll cut your mobile phone roaming charges.
so I take it that you are a Labour Remainer with an internationalist outlook?

If so, I would genuinely be interested to hear your views for the future of the UK in a rapidly-changing geopolitical landscape, how that fits with Labour's values and direction, and how to marry the two. That would be a fantastic contribution to this thread, too.
"Ecology without socialism is just gardening" - Chico Mendes

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GeenDienst
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Re: After Corbyn

Post by GeenDienst » Wed Jan 15, 2020 1:16 pm

if you really need to know, my views for the future of the UK are largely similar to Will Hutton's. I expect we'll bang around between the big players like a pinball for a while, sacrificing standards for trade at every turn, before rejoining eventually on worse terms, probably after I'm mercifully dead.

But I didn't start a discussion on that. I made a comment about one of the candidates for the Labour leadership making stupid, b.llsh.t lies up about people like me, in a thread that is about Labour leadership candidates. She doesn't get to pull her own version of history out of her arse just to suit her f.ckwit angry northerner schtick, and having done so she can do the f.ck off dance, all the way to far-away-f.ck-off-town.

of course, this being on topic also, she migth consider in future the wisdom of starting her campaign by insulting most of the membership. As a mere voter, if she were to win their leadership, other voting options will be available, and I will vote for the party I despise the least, which won't be led by her.

If you want to start something on the future of the UK, you of all people might have considered starting a thread on that, rather than adding even more spam and derail to this one.
Just tell 'em I'm broke and don't come round here no more.

plodder
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Re: After Corbyn

Post by plodder » Wed Jan 15, 2020 1:59 pm

lol. Oh well, I tried.

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Re: After Corbyn

Post by GeenDienst » Wed Jan 15, 2020 2:24 pm

plodder wrote:
Wed Jan 15, 2020 1:59 pm
lol. Oh well, I tried.
Learning to read?
Just tell 'em I'm broke and don't come round here no more.

plodder
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Re: After Corbyn

Post by plodder » Wed Jan 15, 2020 4:18 pm

Well, I read what you said, then I read the link, then I used my words to ask some questions about what you were upset about. You could explain which of the "lies" are hurtful and untrue, why the thing Lisa Nandy hasn't said yet has made you so upset, why you've decided to be rude to me - perhaps I've hurt your feelings?

So my reading has been getting a bit of practice and appears to be working ok. Perhaps some of the words I need to read are still floating around in your mind, waiting to be made in to coherent sentences?

AMS
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Re: After Corbyn

Post by AMS » Wed Jan 15, 2020 5:27 pm

Re Nandy's speech today, I've seen a few comments that the actual speech (which I haven't heard) was more subtle and nuanced than the headline:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/li ... 212f74e834

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Re: After Corbyn

Post by AMS » Wed Jan 15, 2020 5:52 pm

I'm starting to wonder if Nandy is one of those people who are thoughtful, usually right, and tragically not listened to because others shout much louder.
Q: What would your view be of a trade deal after Brexit?

Nandy says she has had a view on what sort of Brexit the UK needs. It put her at odds with the government, and with the Labour leadership. She wants a soft Brexit, she says.

She says there was a moment when Theresa May opened the door for a soft Brexit. Labour should have taken that chance, she says.

She says Labour has rendered itself “irrelevant” because it did not take that chance.

She says Labour needs to think harder about what trade deals achieve. They are big and clunky, focusing mostly on agriculture. They do not focus on the trade that actually takes place. She says when Rolls-Royce sells products, 80% of the value comes from services.

AMS
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Re: After Corbyn

Post by AMS » Wed Jan 15, 2020 5:56 pm

She also said the UK should only sign trade agreements with countries that have ratified the Paris climate agreement (ie not with Trump).

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murmur
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Re: After Corbyn

Post by murmur » Wed Jan 15, 2020 7:41 pm

Can I point out that Angry Northerners come in a variety of flavours and styles and that the 2 Angry Northerners in this particual Northern house do not identify with much being attributed to Angry Northerners?

As you were.
It's so much more attractive inside the moral kiosk

frozenwarning
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Re: After Corbyn

Post by frozenwarning » Thu Jan 16, 2020 9:45 am

Hello Scrutables, happy new year. Shiny in here innit? Apologies if you already know all this.

Sorry to butt in to your new forum but if you are thinking about whether to join the Labour Party to vote for a new leader/deputy but don't want to give the party your cash please consider joining an affiliate to get a vote. I rejoined Jewish Labour as an ally as I resigned from Labour a couple of years ago.

List of affiliates:

Trade Unions:
Aslef
BFAWU
Community
CWU
FBU
GMB
MU
TSSA
UNISON
Unite
USDAW

Socialist Societies:
BAME Labour
Chinese for Labour
Christians on the Left
Disability Labour
Jewish Labour Movement
Labour Animal Welfare Society
Labour Business
Labour Campaign for International Development
Labour Housing Group
Labour Movement for Europe
Labour Party Irish Society
Labour Women’s Network
LGBT Labour
National Union of Labour and Socialist Clubs
Scientists for Labour
Socialist Educational Association
Socialist Environmental and Resources Association
Society of Labour Lawyers
The Fabian Society
The Socialist Health Association

Bear in mind that joining doesn't give you an automatic vote, you also have to register with the party before 5pm on the 20th January so they can check you really are in an affiliate. Register here: https://support.labour.org.uk/

*waves at Stephanie*

xxx

plodder
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Re: After Corbyn

Post by plodder » Thu Jan 16, 2020 12:02 pm

frozenwarning wrote:
Thu Jan 16, 2020 9:45 am
Hello Scrutables, happy new year. Shiny in here innit? Apologies if you already know all this.

Sorry to butt in to your new forum but if you are thinking about whether to join the Labour Party to vote for a new leader/deputy but don't want to give the party your cash please consider joining an affiliate to get a vote. I rejoined Jewish Labour as an ally as I resigned from Labour a couple of years ago.

List of affiliates:

Trade Unions:
Aslef
BFAWU
Community
CWU
FBU
GMB
MU
TSSA
UNISON
Unite
USDAW

Socialist Societies:
BAME Labour
Chinese for Labour
Christians on the Left
Disability Labour
Jewish Labour Movement
Labour Animal Welfare Society
Labour Business
Labour Campaign for International Development
Labour Housing Group
Labour Movement for Europe
Labour Party Irish Society
Labour Women’s Network
LGBT Labour
National Union of Labour and Socialist Clubs
Scientists for Labour
Socialist Educational Association
Socialist Environmental and Resources Association
Society of Labour Lawyers
The Fabian Society
The Socialist Health Association

Bear in mind that joining doesn't give you an automatic vote, you also have to register with the party before 5pm on the 20th January so they can check you really are in an affiliate. Register here: https://support.labour.org.uk/

*waves at Stephanie*

xxx


hello nice person.

This is excellent advice, except I'm completely burned out by Labour right now, and want to let the inevitable implosion happen without taking up my energy. Sorry.

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TopBadger
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Re: After Corbyn

Post by TopBadger » Thu Jan 16, 2020 2:19 pm

Not sure why Nandy thinks the party stopped being internationalist. It's not like JC didn't have enough to say about the middle east, China, USA, etc. is it?

That the primary focus has been on the EU is because that's the thing we're leaving - we're not leaving the planet. So not surprising.

What does being internationalist really mean anyway? To me it's just language as a fig leaf to cover leaving the EU and trying to fool ourselves that we won't be poorer for it, that we can make it up elsewhere. It's nonsense. Aspirational statements will not mitigate what's coming.
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nekomatic
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Re: After Corbyn

Post by nekomatic » Thu Jan 16, 2020 11:28 pm

YAY FW

Nobody can stay away from here forever :twisted:

I left Labour last year over Brexit, I rejoined again a week or so ago so as to vote, if the Momentum candidate gets it I will be out again before they can finish announcing the sixth syllable of her name and that will almost certainly be the end for me. It doesn’t seem at this stage as though it’s a done stitch-up yet though, so I would encourage anyone else who cares, even if only deep down, to pitch in one last time.

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Re: After Corbyn

Post by purplehaze » Fri Jan 17, 2020 1:40 pm

nekomatic wrote:
Thu Jan 16, 2020 11:28 pm
YAY FW

Nobody can stay away from here forever :twisted:

I left Labour last year over Brexit, I rejoined again a week or so ago so as to vote, if the Momentum candidate gets it I will be out again before they can finish announcing the sixth syllable of her name and that will almost certainly be the end for me. It doesn’t seem at this stage as though it’s a done stitch-up yet though, so I would encourage anyone else who cares, even if only deep down, to pitch in one last time.
I have done exactly this and will leave again also. George Osborne tweeted that every Conservative is hoping RLB gets the leadership.

If Starmer wins then it will be put across in the MSM that women can never win in the Labour Party.

Meanwhile in the remainder bins of politics no one is having a conversation about the Lib Dems - not even the Lib Dems I suspect.

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Aitch
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Re: After Corbyn

Post by Aitch » Fri Jan 17, 2020 1:55 pm

purplehaze wrote:
Fri Jan 17, 2020 1:40 pm
...
Meanwhile in the remainder bins of politics no one is having a conversation about the Lib Dems - not even the Lib Dems I suspect.
That would be the Lib Dems who got 11% (approx) of the votes and only 11 seats under FPTP, rather than about 70 with some form of PR*?

We certainly need some form of PR. But that probably deserves its own thread.


* mind you, that would have given the Brexit party over 10 seats...
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Re: After Corbyn

Post by sheldrake » Fri Jan 17, 2020 9:08 pm

purplehaze wrote:
Fri Jan 17, 2020 1:40 pm
I have done exactly this and will leave again also. George Osborne tweeted that every Conservative is hoping RLB gets the leadership.

If Starmer wins then it will be put across in the MSM that women can never win in the Labour Party.

Meanwhile in the remainder bins of politics no one is having a conversation about the Lib Dems - not even the Lib Dems I suspect.
I think all of this is exactly right.

What do actual labour supporters here make of this Blue Labour thing ?

https://www.bluelabour.org/

This is almost something I could vote for once the Brexit dust settles.

plodder
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Re: After Corbyn

Post by plodder » Fri Jan 17, 2020 9:23 pm

I think it's fake.

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Re: After Corbyn

Post by sheldrake » Fri Jan 17, 2020 9:24 pm

Aitch wrote:
Fri Jan 17, 2020 1:55 pm
purplehaze wrote:
Fri Jan 17, 2020 1:40 pm
...
Meanwhile in the remainder bins of politics no one is having a conversation about the Lib Dems - not even the Lib Dems I suspect.
That would be the Lib Dems who got 11% (approx) of the votes and only 11 seats under FPTP, rather than about 70 with some form of PR*?

We certainly need some form of PR. But that probably deserves its own thread.


* mind you, that would have given the Brexit party over 10 seats...
In 2015 it would have given UKIP more than the Lib Dems (UKIP got over 12% of the vote then, with the Lib Dems on 7.9%) and there would likely have been a Tory/UKIP coalition.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2015_Unit ... on#Results

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Re: After Corbyn

Post by sheldrake » Fri Jan 17, 2020 9:25 pm

plodder wrote:
Fri Jan 17, 2020 9:23 pm
I think it's fake.
Maurice Glasman and Blue Labour are definitely a real thing. Do you think it's just that site that's fake ?

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Re: After Corbyn

Post by GeenDienst » Sat Jan 18, 2020 1:04 am

TopBadger wrote:
Thu Jan 16, 2020 2:19 pm
Not sure why Nandy thinks the party stopped being internationalist...
Nandy had form for opposing the policy shift towards a 2nd referendum. Taking a swipe at remainers is a means of appeasing her local, well, Tories, now. Anyway, it looks in the bag for Starmer, at this time. The party never really stopped being internationalist, and will be more visibly so once Starmer wins, for as long as he's there, at least. Starmer has felt no need to pick this scab, and he's right. For my money, he's the one who really speaks to uniting the party, and by extension, the country. Who knows, I might even vote for the f.ckers if he's leading them, not that it matters here in Toryland.
Just tell 'em I'm broke and don't come round here no more.

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Re: After Corbyn

Post by GeenDienst » Sat Jan 18, 2020 1:11 am

AMS wrote:
Wed Jan 15, 2020 5:52 pm
I'm starting to wonder if Nandy is one of those people who are thoughtful, usually right, and tragically not listened to because others shout much louder.
Q: What would your view be of a trade deal after Brexit?

Nandy says she has had a view on what sort of Brexit the UK needs. It put her at odds with the government, and with the Labour leadership. She wants a soft Brexit, she says.

She says there was a moment when Theresa May opened the door for a soft Brexit. Labour should have taken that chance, she says.

She says Labour has rendered itself “irrelevant” because it did not take that chance.

She says Labour needs to think harder about what trade deals achieve. They are big and clunky, focusing mostly on agriculture. They do not focus on the trade that actually takes place. She says when Rolls-Royce sells products, 80% of the value comes from services.
No, because her soft Brexit is still sh.t, and Labour members didn't want it. Sure, in hindsight, we lost, but that wasn't inevitable. Going for a 2nd referendum was the right thing to do, not least looking at what the LDs did to Labour in the Euro elections, at the time that had gone all Brexity. Moving to a (sort of) 2nd referendum stance was what squeezed the LDs. Labour was irrelevant for several reasons, mostly to do with the leadership clique.
Just tell 'em I'm broke and don't come round here no more.

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