After Corbyn

Discussions about serious topics, for serious people

Who will be the next Labour leader?

Angela Rayner
4
5%
John McDonnell
2
2%
Keir Starmer
42
51%
Rebecca Long-Bailey
8
10%
Emily Thornberry
0
No votes
Clive Lewis
1
1%
Yvette Cooper
17
21%
Laura Pidcock
1
1%
Clive Lewis
0
No votes
Tony Blair
7
9%
 
Total votes: 82

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nekomatic
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Re: After Corbyn

Post by nekomatic » Tue Jan 21, 2020 5:04 pm

Not Phillips then.

plodder
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Re: After Corbyn

Post by plodder » Tue Jan 21, 2020 5:23 pm

I really like Jess Phillips but she's not the person to lead the party, she's far too frank and cheery with her opinions. Guile and slyness doesn't particularly suit her.

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Re: After Corbyn

Post by JQH » Wed Jan 22, 2020 12:01 am

I dunno about that. I was looking forward to her tearing Johnson a new one at Prime Minister's Porkies Questions.
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Re: After Corbyn

Post by GeenDienst » Wed Jan 22, 2020 12:10 am

Phillips was never going to get Unions and/or CLP backing. This was entirely as intended by the Corbyn era changes to the system, designed to discourage challenges to his position by placing barriers to standing in the hands of CLP activists and union leadership.

Starmer looks like breaking through that, and needs to reduce the barriers to standing as leader.
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Re: After Corbyn

Post by GeenDienst » Wed Jan 22, 2020 1:58 pm

Nandy now officially joins Starmer on the ballot. With Corbyn 2.0 also certain to get there, and Thornberry pretty certain not to, there's yer runners and riders.
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El Pollo Diablo
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Re: After Corbyn

Post by El Pollo Diablo » Wed Jan 22, 2020 2:09 pm

Think I'll probably go for Nandy first, then Starmer second, and not at all for Rebecca "Why The" Long-Bailey.
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Re: After Corbyn

Post by GeenDienst » Wed Jan 22, 2020 2:12 pm

You and your crayzzeee roaming charges.
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Re: After Corbyn

Post by plodder » Thu Jan 23, 2020 3:30 am

El Pollo Diablo wrote:
Wed Jan 22, 2020 2:09 pm
Think I'll probably go for Nandy first, then Starmer second, and not at all for Rebecca "Why The" Long-Bailey.
Do you see any of these as an election winner, or just a safe pair of hands whilst whoever wins consolidates and stabilises the party for 2025?

Reason I ask is that I wonder if a.n.other party could also get their act together in that timeframe.

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El Pollo Diablo
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Re: After Corbyn

Post by El Pollo Diablo » Thu Jan 23, 2020 7:45 am

plodder wrote:
Thu Jan 23, 2020 3:30 am
El Pollo Diablo wrote:
Wed Jan 22, 2020 2:09 pm
Think I'll probably go for Nandy first, then Starmer second, and not at all for Rebecca "Why The" Long-Bailey.
Do you see any of these as an election winner, or just a safe pair of hands whilst whoever wins consolidates and stabilises the party for 2025?

Reason I ask is that I wonder if a.n.other party could also get their act together in that timeframe.
Honestly, I think it depends more on what the tories do than Labour themselves. I think in 2010 when the tories almost reversed their deficit which was similar to labour's now, that was in large part because people had grown tired of labour. If the tories f.ck up Brexit then that will play a role, as long as Labour have the gumption to go after them.

I think Starmer might well have the sense to do it right. The main thing I like about nandy is that she performs well with the media and is thoughtful. She makes me feel a bit uncomfortable, but that's probably a good thing, really. I don't know how she'd do with the leadership but it's got to be better than corbyn. I see Starmer more as the safe pair of hands, and probably the one with the best chance of winning an election overall, but the more I see of nandy the more I like her.
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Re: After Corbyn

Post by TopBadger » Thu Jan 23, 2020 11:12 am

Being good at 'Leading the Party' and 'Sticking it to Boris' are likely two different skill sets. Which is more important in opposition?

I reckon Starmer would be better at the former and Nandy better at the later.

I think Boris would much rather go up against Sir Starmer in the chamber - he can be tarnished with the liberal london metropolitan elite brush very easily and attacked more strongly, "mano e mano". Boris will hate going up against a strong northern lass at PMQ's, who can't be tagged as London elite, can't be tagged as continuity Corbyn, can't slam the labour party for failing to elect a woman leader, and he'll need to watch every word out of his mouth lest he slips into misogyny / mansplaining - all delightfully awkward for Boris.

So on that basis alone I wouldn't be sad to see her win - they're in opposition so policy doesn't matter for years. Keeping Boris on his toes does.
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Re: After Corbyn

Post by GeenDienst » Thu Jan 23, 2020 11:31 am

This is the top job in a national political party, they are supposed to have all the skills needed, or they might as well not bother. Another lesson from the wasted, damaging Corbyn years.

And this "safe pair of hands" stuff is essentially meaningless, beyond "not being Corbyn". Starmer has set out his pitch and is certainly saying he won't move far to the right. I see no reason to assume Starmer would not lead a reasonable radical government. Meanwhile his forensic demolition skills have been praised much, not least in dismantling Davis over his repeal bill. Unlike Nandy, he hasn't made up a fictitious history over Brexit to appease his local Tories. What has Nandy ever actually done that leads you to think she could stick it to Johnson?

But let's keep this in perspective, none of these are ever going to be PM. If one of them does well as leader, they just might nudge Labour out of "complete laughing stock" to "not near government". Marina Hyde hit the spot when she described it as like "the soap opera of a faraway ant colony". And Momentum consider neither Starmer nor Nandy to be a "viable candidate". Their star may not be as bright nationally as before the clusterf.ck, but they still control the party machinery at all levels.
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Re: After Corbyn

Post by GeenDienst » Thu Jan 23, 2020 3:45 pm

Over at the anthill, I know Corbyn 2.0 is a certainty to be on the ballot. But, I thought she'd do better, faster, at this stage, especially out in the CLPs. Latest in the Graun live blog today is:

CLPs:
Starmer: 18
Corbyn 2.0: 5
Thornberry: 3
Nandy: 1

Affiliates:
Starmer: 3 (enough)
Nandy: 3 (enough)
Corbyn 2.0: 1

Plenty of CLPs to go, but the strength of early support for The Starmster is striking. Now that 2 are over the line, there might be more nominations for the others, to get them into the contest.

And comedy update, McDonnell has released a video supporting Burgon for deputy. I'm not going to watch it, even my pointless life is too precious to spend time on that.
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El Pollo Diablo
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Re: After Corbyn

Post by El Pollo Diablo » Thu Jan 23, 2020 4:26 pm

I'd genuinely rather have a cactus with googly eyes on it as deputy leader than Richard Burgon.
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Re: After Corbyn

Post by GeenDienst » Thu Jan 23, 2020 4:43 pm

If anyone else is wrestling with that decision, we should at least see the contenders.

A cactus with googly eyes:
Image

Richard Burgon, yesterday:
Image
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Re: After Corbyn

Post by sheldrake » Fri Jan 24, 2020 5:12 am

TopBadger wrote:
Thu Jan 23, 2020 11:12 am


I think Boris would much rather go up against Sir Starmer in the chamber - he can be tarnished with the liberal london metropolitan elite brush very easily and attacked more strongly, "mano e mano". Boris will hate going up against a strong northern lass at PMQ's, who can't be tagged as London elite, can't be tagged as continuity Corbyn, can't slam the labour party for failing to elect a woman leader, and he'll need to watch every word out of his mouth lest he slips into misogyny / mansplaining - all delightfully awkward for Boris.
I think you've overestimated how much people outside of your political tradition care about mansplaining.

It will be a huge deal in the pages of the Guardian and the Independent. Sure. You've got to learn to see that conceptual world as alien to the thinking of most British people in order to win elections.

Nandy is the daughter of a Marxist academic and the granddaughter of a liberal MP. The liberal elite thing absolutely sticks. Sorry. This isn't going to work.

You need the para from notts. Doesn't matter if he turns out to be a bit thick. Really doesn't.

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Re: After Corbyn

Post by plodder » Fri Jan 24, 2020 8:04 am

Dan Jarvis is a while off though, he's mayoring up in Sheffield, biding his time. We'll get all that "this is my calling" guff once the civil war is won.

I was listening to a load of Southern urban metropolitan Labour supporters on QT last night. They lived in Stoke Newington, their kids keep getting stabbed and they're mostly black.

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Re: After Corbyn

Post by tom p » Fri Jan 24, 2020 2:13 pm

sheldrake wrote:
Fri Jan 24, 2020 5:12 am
TopBadger wrote:
Thu Jan 23, 2020 11:12 am


I think Boris would much rather go up against Sir Starmer in the chamber - he can be tarnished with the liberal london metropolitan elite brush very easily and attacked more strongly, "mano e mano". Boris will hate going up against a strong northern lass at PMQ's, who can't be tagged as London elite, can't be tagged as continuity Corbyn, can't slam the labour party for failing to elect a woman leader, and he'll need to watch every word out of his mouth lest he slips into misogyny / mansplaining - all delightfully awkward for Boris.
I think you've overestimated how much people outside of your political tradition care about mansplaining.
You strike me as the kind of man who never listens to women.
My 50-year old sisters in law are very aware of the term and how annoying it is.
One's a Telegraph tory & the other pays no attention to daily political goings on, and is just managing, living in a sh.tty village in a deeply tory county in the midlands.
Old people (like >70) might not use the term or might just think it's the natural way of things (the same sort of people who think that UKIP MEPs are perfectly normal & reasonable), but anyone born in or after the 60s won't

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Re: After Corbyn

Post by Woodchopper » Sat Jan 25, 2020 5:17 am

Some personally abusive posts and responses to them have been moved to quarantine

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Re: After Corbyn

Post by Herainestold » Sat Jan 25, 2020 6:32 am

Woodchopper wrote:
Sat Jan 25, 2020 5:17 am
Some personally abusive posts and responses to them have been moved to quarantine
Good

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Re: After Corbyn

Post by sideshowjim » Sun Jan 26, 2020 4:55 pm

TopBadger wrote:
Thu Jan 23, 2020 11:12 am
Being good at 'Leading the Party' and 'Sticking it to Boris' are likely two different skill sets. Which is more important in opposition?

I reckon Starmer would be better at the former and Nandy better at the later.

I think Boris would much rather go up against Sir Starmer in the chamber - he can be tarnished with the liberal london metropolitan elite brush very easily and attacked more strongly, "mano e mano". Boris will hate going up against a strong northern lass at PMQ's, who can't be tagged as London elite, can't be tagged as continuity Corbyn, can't slam the labour party for failing to elect a woman leader, and he'll need to watch every word out of his mouth lest he slips into misogyny / mansplaining - all delightfully awkward for Boris.

So on that basis alone I wouldn't be sad to see her win - they're in opposition so policy doesn't matter for years. Keeping Boris on his toes does.
How much effect does PMQ's have on voter's views of a candidate? I imagine if they're a consistently bumbling shambles who embarrasses themselves every single time then it might be an issue, but otherwise?

I've not got a preference in the race (I honestly am not interested in whatever the hell happens, see who comes out in charge at the end and see where it goes from there), I just think if too much credence is put onto the weekly pointless shouty match.

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Re: After Corbyn

Post by Stephanie » Sun Jan 26, 2020 8:57 pm

Woodchopper wrote:
Sat Jan 25, 2020 5:17 am
Some personally abusive posts and responses to them have been moved to quarantine
please carry on your argument about the decision in this thread
viewtopic.php?f=16&t=773
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Re: After Corbyn

Post by shpalman » Mon Jan 27, 2020 9:46 am

tom p wrote:
Fri Jan 24, 2020 2:13 pm
sheldrake wrote:
Fri Jan 24, 2020 5:12 am
TopBadger wrote:
Thu Jan 23, 2020 11:12 am


I think Boris would much rather go up against Sir Starmer in the chamber - he can be tarnished with the liberal london metropolitan elite brush very easily and attacked more strongly, "mano e mano". Boris will hate going up against a strong northern lass at PMQ's, who can't be tagged as London elite, can't be tagged as continuity Corbyn, can't slam the labour party for failing to elect a woman leader, and he'll need to watch every word out of his mouth lest he slips into misogyny / mansplaining - all delightfully awkward for Boris.
I think you've overestimated how much people outside of your political tradition care about mansplaining.
You strike me as the kind of man who never listens to women.
My 50-year old sisters in law are very aware of the term and how annoying it is.
One's a Telegraph tory & the other pays no attention to daily political goings on, and is just managing, living in a sh.tty village in a deeply tory county in the midlands.
Old people (like >70) might not use the term or might just think it's the natural way of things (the same sort of people who think that UKIP MEPs are perfectly normal & reasonable), but anyone born in or after the 60s won't
How many have said that they would have voted tory except that they couldn't vote for Johnson because he's a womanizing lying cheat, so didn't vote tory? Because Johnson wins elections, so someone must be voting for him. And they know what kind of man he is.
molto tricky

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Re: After Corbyn

Post by snoozeofreason » Mon Jan 27, 2020 12:49 pm

Mrs. Snooze and I have been spending quite a lot of time recently discussing who will get our vote, and I think we are both leaning towards Lisa Nandy. It has sometimes occurred to me that Nandy's gender might give her an advantage because Johnson would have to pick his words more carefully when talking to her, but I think I would be careful about voicing that opinion. It's the sort of statement that can be taken more than one way, particularly when said by a man to a woman. I'd hesitate to use the phrase "Northern Lass" to describe her, for rather similar reasons.
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Re: After Corbyn

Post by jdc » Tue Jan 28, 2020 12:34 am

shpalman wrote:
Mon Jan 27, 2020 9:46 am
tom p wrote:
Fri Jan 24, 2020 2:13 pm
sheldrake wrote:
Fri Jan 24, 2020 5:12 am


I think you've overestimated how much people outside of your political tradition care about mansplaining.
You strike me as the kind of man who never listens to women.
My 50-year old sisters in law are very aware of the term and how annoying it is.
One's a Telegraph tory & the other pays no attention to daily political goings on, and is just managing, living in a sh.tty village in a deeply tory county in the midlands.
Old people (like >70) might not use the term or might just think it's the natural way of things (the same sort of people who think that UKIP MEPs are perfectly normal & reasonable), but anyone born in or after the 60s won't
How many have said that they would have voted tory except that they couldn't vote for Johnson because he's a womanizing lying cheat, so didn't vote tory? Because Johnson wins elections, so someone must be voting for him. And they know what kind of man he is.
Yougov poll here: https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/ar ... l-election with breakdowns by age/gender etc. People are definitely voting for Boris, and some of them are women. 18-24 age range if you're looking for a gender gap. 25+ and it's pretty much gone.

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Re: After Corbyn

Post by Herainestold » Tue Jan 28, 2020 1:30 am

Need to work on stategies to get young people to vote and discourage the oldies. Could be a good project for Labour in tandem with pro democracy activists.

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