After Corbyn

Discussions about serious topics, for serious people

Who will be the next Labour leader?

Angela Rayner
4
5%
John McDonnell
2
2%
Keir Starmer
44
52%
Rebecca Long-Bailey
8
10%
Emily Thornberry
0
No votes
Clive Lewis
1
1%
Yvette Cooper
17
20%
Laura Pidcock
1
1%
Clive Lewis
0
No votes
Tony Blair
7
8%
 
Total votes: 84

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lpm
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Re: After Corbyn

Post by lpm » Sat Apr 04, 2020 9:46 am

OMG!!

What a shock.
I'll miss him after he's died in the pandemic

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bjn
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Re: After Corbyn

Post by bjn » Sat Apr 04, 2020 9:50 am

Phew. Some degree of sanity returned to the party then.

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Re: After Corbyn

Post by lpm » Sat Apr 04, 2020 9:51 am

I hadn't even realised Michael Gove was in the running.

This makes it the first time the Labour leader is a Conservative MP, sitting in a Conservative government cabinet.

Will be interesting. But I'm sure Michael Gove will make a success of it.
I'll miss him after he's died in the pandemic

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Re: After Corbyn

Post by lpm » Sat Apr 04, 2020 9:58 am

The left wing of the party is already whining. Claiming Michael Gove is a secret Tory. Which is self-evidently wrong - he's openly a Tory. In this sense he's better than Blair and Brown, who kept their true affiliations secret.

At least it's not a return to Blairism, which is what the left feared the most.
I'll miss him after he's died in the pandemic

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Re: After Corbyn

Post by Pucksoppet » Sat Apr 04, 2020 10:15 am

OK, so Starmer/Rayner

Pledges to keep to 10 pledges:
My promise to you is that I will maintain our radical values and work tirelessly to get Labour in to power – so that we can advance the interests of the people our party was created to serve.

Based on the moral case for socialism, here is where I stand.

1. Economic justice
Increase income tax for the top 5% of earners, reverse the Tories’ cuts in corporation tax and clamp down on tax avoidance, particularly of large corporations. No stepping back from our core principles.

2. Social justice
Abolish Universal Credit and end the Tories’ cruel sanctions regime. Set a national goal for wellbeing to make health as important as GDP; Invest in services that help shift to a preventative approach. Stand up for universal services and defend our NHS. Support the abolition of tuition fees and invest in lifelong learning.

3. Climate justice
Put the Green New Deal at the heart of everything we do. There is no issue more important to our future than the climate emergency. A Clean Air Act to tackle pollution locally. Demand international action on climate rights.

4. Promote peace and human rights
No more illegal wars. Introduce a Prevention of Military Intervention Act and put human rights at the heart of foreign policy. Review all UK arms sales and make us a force for international peace and justice.

5. Common ownership
Public services should be in public hands, not making profits for shareholders. Support common ownership of rail, mail, energy and water; end outsourcing in our NHS, local government and justice system.

6. Defend migrants’ rights
Full voting rights for EU nationals. Defend free movement as we leave the EU. An immigration system based on compassion and dignity. End indefinite detention and call for the closure of centres such as Yarl’s Wood.

7. Strengthen workers’ rights and trade unions
Work shoulder to shoulder with trade unions to stand up for working people, tackle insecure work and low pay. Repeal the Trade Union Act. Oppose Tory attacks on the right to take industrial action and the weakening of workplace rights.

8. Radical devolution of power, wealth and opportunity
Push power, wealth and opportunity away from Whitehall. A federal system to devolve powers – including through regional investment banks and control over regional industrial strategy. Abolish the House of Lords – replace it with an elected chamber of regions and nations.

9. Equality
Pull down obstacles that limit opportunities and talent. We are the party of the Equal Pay Act, Sure Start, BAME representation and the abolition of Section 28 – we must build on that for a new decade.

10. Effective opposition to the Tories
Forensic, effective opposition to the Tories in Parliament – linked up to our mass membership and a professional election operation. Never lose sight of the votes ‘lent’ to the Tories in 2019. Unite our party, promote pluralism and improve our culture. Robust action to eradicate the scourge of antisemitism. Maintain our collective links with the unions.

I want to know what you think.

The future of our party will not be built by any one person. I want you to tell me how you think our Party can be more open, respectful, creative and engaging.

Fill in this form to let me know – I look forward to hearing from you.

Keir Starmer

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Re: After Corbyn

Post by badger » Sat Apr 04, 2020 11:13 am

LOLOLOL!

Momentum urges Starmer not to purge Corbynites from shadow cabinet

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/li ... a1d119e4a

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Re: After Corbyn

Post by Opti » Sat Apr 04, 2020 11:44 am

I've had a few posts on my FB feed from a number of people crowing that they've resigned their LP membership. f.cking good. A great many have been saying that they won't be able to criticise Israel anymore.
They just don't see that they're the problem.
f.ck off to the SWP then, that's obviously where you belong.
He cannot be killed by conventional weapons. True. He and Mrs Opti are wicked cool.

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Re: After Corbyn

Post by Bird on a Fire » Sat Apr 04, 2020 11:57 am

Pucksoppet wrote:
Sat Apr 04, 2020 10:15 am
OK, so Starmer/Rayner

Pledges to keep to 10 pledges:
My promise to you is that I will maintain our radical values and work tirelessly to get Labour in to power – so that we can advance the interests of the people our party was created to serve.

Based on the moral case for socialism, here is where I stand.

1. Economic justice
Increase income tax for the top 5% of earners, reverse the Tories’ cuts in corporation tax and clamp down on tax avoidance, particularly of large corporations. No stepping back from our core principles.

2. Social justice
Abolish Universal Credit and end the Tories’ cruel sanctions regime. Set a national goal for wellbeing to make health as important as GDP; Invest in services that help shift to a preventative approach. Stand up for universal services and defend our NHS. Support the abolition of tuition fees and invest in lifelong learning.

3. Climate justice
Put the Green New Deal at the heart of everything we do. There is no issue more important to our future than the climate emergency. A Clean Air Act to tackle pollution locally. Demand international action on climate rights.

4. Promote peace and human rights
No more illegal wars. Introduce a Prevention of Military Intervention Act and put human rights at the heart of foreign policy. Review all UK arms sales and make us a force for international peace and justice.

5. Common ownership
Public services should be in public hands, not making profits for shareholders. Support common ownership of rail, mail, energy and water; end outsourcing in our NHS, local government and justice system.

6. Defend migrants’ rights
Full voting rights for EU nationals. Defend free movement as we leave the EU. An immigration system based on compassion and dignity. End indefinite detention and call for the closure of centres such as Yarl’s Wood.

7. Strengthen workers’ rights and trade unions
Work shoulder to shoulder with trade unions to stand up for working people, tackle insecure work and low pay. Repeal the Trade Union Act. Oppose Tory attacks on the right to take industrial action and the weakening of workplace rights.

8. Radical devolution of power, wealth and opportunity
Push power, wealth and opportunity away from Whitehall. A federal system to devolve powers – including through regional investment banks and control over regional industrial strategy. Abolish the House of Lords – replace it with an elected chamber of regions and nations.

9. Equality
Pull down obstacles that limit opportunities and talent. We are the party of the Equal Pay Act, Sure Start, BAME representation and the abolition of Section 28 – we must build on that for a new decade.

10. Effective opposition to the Tories
Forensic, effective opposition to the Tories in Parliament – linked up to our mass membership and a professional election operation. Never lose sight of the votes ‘lent’ to the Tories in 2019. Unite our party, promote pluralism and improve our culture. Robust action to eradicate the scourge of antisemitism. Maintain our collective links with the unions.

I want to know what you think.

The future of our party will not be built by any one person. I want you to tell me how you think our Party can be more open, respectful, creative and engaging.

Fill in this form to let me know – I look forward to hearing from you.

Keir Starmer
These are good. Some deliberate distancing from Blair (4 and 5), a bit of a dig at Corbyn (10) but also language like "moral case for socialism" and "no stepping back from our core principles". It will be interesting to see how this translates into effective Parliamentary strategy and, eventually, policy.

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Re: After Corbyn

Post by purplehaze » Sat Apr 04, 2020 2:39 pm

Opti wrote:
Sat Apr 04, 2020 11:44 am
I've had a few posts on my FB feed from a number of people crowing that they've resigned their LP membership. f.cking good. A great many have been saying that they won't be able to criticise Israel anymore.
They just don't see that they're the problem.
f.ck off to the SWP then, that's obviously where you belong.
This.

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Re: After Corbyn

Post by jimbob » Sat Apr 04, 2020 2:51 pm

Opti wrote:
Sat Apr 04, 2020 11:44 am
I've had a few posts on my FB feed from a number of people crowing that they've resigned their LP membership. f.cking good. A great many have been saying that they won't be able to criticise Israel anymore.
They just don't see that they're the problem.
f.ck off to the SWP then, that's obviously where you belong.
https://twitter.com/redalphababe/status ... 7621567488

Spoiler:


Edit: actually it looks like a Poe
Have you considered stupidity as an explanation

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Re: After Corbyn

Post by Trinucleus » Sat Apr 04, 2020 5:06 pm

jimbob wrote:
Sat Apr 04, 2020 2:51 pm
Opti wrote:
Sat Apr 04, 2020 11:44 am
I've had a few posts on my FB feed from a number of people crowing that they've resigned their LP membership. f.cking good. A great many have been saying that they won't be able to criticise Israel anymore.
They just don't see that they're the problem.
f.ck off to the SWP then, that's obviously where you belong.
https://twitter.com/redalphababe/status ... 7621567488

Spoiler:


Edit: actually it looks like a Poe
Bit puzzled. Surely they get behind the democratically elected leader

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Re: After Corbyn

Post by headshot » Sat Apr 04, 2020 7:33 pm

The three NEC positions have been taken by centrists. The loony left have been completely purged by the membership.

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Re: After Corbyn

Post by Grumble » Sat Apr 04, 2020 9:13 pm

headshot wrote:
Sat Apr 04, 2020 7:33 pm
The three NEC positions have been taken by centrists. The loony left have been completely purged by the membership.
Thank f.ck for that.
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Re: After Corbyn

Post by discovolante » Tue Apr 07, 2020 9:08 am

Ooh bit late to the party I know but I see David Lammy has been appointed shadow justice secretary.
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Re: After Corbyn

Post by headshot » Tue Apr 07, 2020 10:28 am

The Shadow Cabinet is pretty good, and reasonably representative.

The shadow cabinet in full
• Keir Starmer, leader of the opposition.
• Angela Rayner, deputy leader and chair of the Labour party.
• Anneliese Dodds, shadow chancellor of the exchequer.
• Lisa Nandy, shadow foreign secretary.
• Nick Thomas-Symonds, shadow home secretary.
• Rachel Reeves, shadow chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster.
• David Lammy, shadow justice secretary.
• John Healey, shadow defence secretary.
• Ed Miliband, shadow business, energy and industrial secretary.
• Emily Thornberry, shadow international trade secretary.
• Jonathan Reynolds, shadow work and pensions secretary.
• Jonathan Ashworth, shadow secretary of state for health and social care.
• Rebecca Long-Bailey, shadow education secretary.
• Jo Stevens, shadow digital, culture, media and sport secretary.
• Bridget Phillipson, shadow chief secretary to the Treasury.
• Luke Pollard, shadow environment, food and rural affairs secretary.
• Steve Reed, shadow communities and local government secretary.
• Thangam Debbonaire, shadow housing secretary.
• Jim McMahon, shadow transport secretary.
• Preet Kaur Gill, shadow international development secretary.
• Louise Haigh, shadow Northern Ireland secretary (interim while Tony Lloyd is in hospital being treated for coronavirus).
• Ian Murray, shadow Scotland secretary.
• Nia Griffith, shadow Wales secretary.
• Marsha de Cordova, shadow women and equalities secretary.
• Andy McDonald, shadow employment rights and protections secretary.
• Rosena Allin-Khan, shadow minister for mental health.
• Cat Smith, shadow minister for young people and voter engagement.
• Lord Falconer, shadow attorney general.
• Valerie Vaz, shadow leader of the house.
• Nick Brown, opposition chief whip.
• Lady Smith, shadow leader of the Lords.
• Lord McAvoy, Lords’ Opposition chief whip.
Attachments
Screenshot 2020-04-07 at 11.27.49.png
Screenshot 2020-04-07 at 11.27.49.png (123.36 KiB) Viewed 412 times

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Re: After Corbyn

Post by Pucksoppet » Tue Apr 07, 2020 6:55 pm

headshot wrote:
Tue Apr 07, 2020 10:28 am
The Shadow Cabinet is pretty good, and reasonably representative.
Well, IF you subscribe to the view that Oxbridge are la crème-de-la-crème, then having them over-represented in an organisation might not be a bad thing.

Please note the big boldface IF there.

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Re: After Corbyn

Post by discovolante » Tue Apr 07, 2020 7:25 pm

Pucksoppet wrote:
Tue Apr 07, 2020 6:55 pm
headshot wrote:
Tue Apr 07, 2020 10:28 am
The Shadow Cabinet is pretty good, and reasonably representative.
Well, IF you subscribe to the view that Oxbridge are la crème-de-la-crème, then having them over-represented in an organisation might not be a bad thing.

Please note the big boldface IF there.
Who would say that though and why are their opinions worth speculating about?
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Re: After Corbyn

Post by Pucksoppet » Tue Apr 07, 2020 8:58 pm

discovolante wrote:
Tue Apr 07, 2020 7:25 pm
Pucksoppet wrote:
Tue Apr 07, 2020 6:55 pm
headshot wrote:
Tue Apr 07, 2020 10:28 am
The Shadow Cabinet is pretty good, and reasonably representative.
Well, IF you subscribe to the view that Oxbridge are la crème-de-la-crème, then having them over-represented in an organisation might not be a bad thing.

Please note the big boldface IF there.
Who would say that though and why are their opinions worth speculating about?
Oxbridge graduates, who as a group are over-represented in positions of power.

There are at least two issues

1) Is the absolute difference in ability (if it exists) between Oxbridge graduates and other universities significant? I think Ken McKenzie could throw some interesting information into that debate. I think the tl;dr is that although the results of students entering Oxbridge are indeed in the top percentile, after the time in university, it is not so clear cut.
2) Should politicians be drawn from the ranks of the people best at passing university final exams? In other words, does the ability to get a good result in a PPE exam translate into political excellence? Passing exams is not the same as actually doing the job, and good degree results may be a good indicator of someone who would do well in academia studying politics, rather than practising it.

There are also some other issues, such as the clique effect: Oxbridge graduates will tend to favour hiring other Oxbridge graduates, so once they have a foothold in positions of power, they will tend to retain them.

The French took a different approach with the ENS - ENA route into the civil service and politics, although Macron has announced he will reform/abolish the ENA. The ENS - ENA route was unashamedly elitist. The Guardian: French 'old boys' network' far worse than Britain's, book claims . France, to me, seems somewhat paradoxical - a socialist state that encourages elitism in certain areas. The wheels seem to have fallen off that vehicle, but it endured for a long, long time.

No matter what, if a shadow cabinet is wanted that does not have an over-representation of Oxbridge graduates, then some care will be needed in designing a selection mechanism to achieve that. I don't know how that can be done. Overt discrimination might work, but I am simply ignorant of the possibilities.

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Re: After Corbyn

Post by El Pollo Diablo » Tue Apr 07, 2020 9:11 pm

Wonder how they handle people like Starmer himself, who went to Leeds uni and then Oxford as a postgrad
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Re: After Corbyn

Post by Millennie Al » Thu Apr 09, 2020 3:37 am

Pucksoppet wrote:
Tue Apr 07, 2020 8:58 pm
Oxbridge graduates, who as a group are over-represented in positions of power.

There are at least two issues

1) Is the absolute difference in ability (if it exists) between Oxbridge graduates and other universities significant? I think Ken McKenzie could throw some interesting information into that debate. I think the tl;dr is that although the results of students entering Oxbridge are indeed in the top percentile, after the time in university, it is not so clear cut.
Since both Oxford and Cambridge use interviews to help select students, and politicians get elected based (at least partly) on how well they present themselves to the electorate, I would expect there to be a correlation as those who present themselves as well placed to benefit from an opportunity have an advantage in both.
2) Should politicians be drawn from the ranks of the people best at passing university final exams? In other words, does the ability to get a good result in a PPE exam translate into political excellence? Passing exams is not the same as actually doing the job, and good degree results may be a good indicator of someone who would do well in academia studying politics, rather than practising it.
Obviously not. Politicians should be drawn from those who get elected. As indeed they are. The electorate get to decide and if they want to elect Oxbridge graduates they are perfectly entitled to do so.

Democracy is based on a strong presumption that ability to get elected is strongly correlated with the ability to run the country.
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Re: After Corbyn

Post by secret squirrel » Thu Apr 09, 2020 5:07 am

Millennie Al wrote:
Thu Apr 09, 2020 3:37 am
Pucksoppet wrote:
Tue Apr 07, 2020 8:58 pm
Oxbridge graduates, who as a group are over-represented in positions of power.

There are at least two issues

1) Is the absolute difference in ability (if it exists) between Oxbridge graduates and other universities significant? I think Ken McKenzie could throw some interesting information into that debate. I think the tl;dr is that although the results of students entering Oxbridge are indeed in the top percentile, after the time in university, it is not so clear cut.
Since both Oxford and Cambridge use interviews to help select students, and politicians get elected based (at least partly) on how well they present themselves to the electorate, I would expect there to be a correlation as those who present themselves as well placed to benefit from an opportunity have an advantage in both.
I would expect the correlation between how well someone presents themselves to subject matter experts/nerds in interviews almost entirely focused on that subject, which is what Oxbridge interviews have been like for at least the last 20 years, and how well someone projects themselves to the electorate, to be extremely weak, and possibly negative.

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Re: After Corbyn

Post by Martin_B » Thu Apr 09, 2020 6:02 am

Millennie Al wrote:
Thu Apr 09, 2020 3:37 am
Pucksoppet wrote:
Tue Apr 07, 2020 8:58 pm
2) Should politicians be drawn from the ranks of the people best at passing university final exams? In other words, does the ability to get a good result in a PPE exam translate into political excellence? Passing exams is not the same as actually doing the job, and good degree results may be a good indicator of someone who would do well in academia studying politics, rather than practising it.
Obviously not. Politicians should be drawn from those who get elected. As indeed they are. The electorate get to decide and if they want to elect Oxbridge graduates they are perfectly entitled to do so.

Democracy is based on a strong presumption that ability to get elected is strongly correlated with the ability to run the country.
For the first part, yes-and-no. In a safe seat the party can put some fairly unelectable people up and they'll still get elected. My parent's constituency (Farnham/Surrey South West) voted in Harold McMillan's son 6 times, although before then he'd lost 4 of the 6 elections he stood for as an MP.

It's interesting (to me) the way that one of the differences between American and British governments is that in Britain you elect MPs to run the country, while in America the government (Secretaries of State, Defence, Industry, etc) are people who get appointed by the President, and not people who have just won their elections to the House of Representatives or Senate. If a member of congress or senator takes up a cabinet position they have to give up their seat in the House (and that position is filled by the state governor until another election can be called). Hence, you end up with John Ashcroft, who was voted out of his Missouri senate seat to a dead man, but then appointed as Attorney General by Dubya.
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Re: After Corbyn

Post by headshot » Thu Apr 09, 2020 7:00 am

Martin_B wrote:
Thu Apr 09, 2020 6:02 am
Millennie Al wrote:
Thu Apr 09, 2020 3:37 am
Pucksoppet wrote:
Tue Apr 07, 2020 8:58 pm
2) Should politicians be drawn from the ranks of the people best at passing university final exams? In other words, does the ability to get a good result in a PPE exam translate into political excellence? Passing exams is not the same as actually doing the job, and good degree results may be a good indicator of someone who would do well in academia studying politics, rather than practising it.
Obviously not. Politicians should be drawn from those who get elected. As indeed they are. The electorate get to decide and if they want to elect Oxbridge graduates they are perfectly entitled to do so.

Democracy is based on a strong presumption that ability to get elected is strongly correlated with the ability to run the country.
For the first part, yes-and-no. In a safe seat the party can put some fairly unelectable people up and they'll still get elected. My parent's constituency (Farnham/Surrey South West) voted in Harold McMillan's son 6 times, although before then he'd lost 4 of the 6 elections he stood for as an MP.

It's interesting (to me) the way that one of the differences between American and British governments is that in Britain you elect MPs to run the country, while in America the government (Secretaries of State, Defence, Industry, etc) are people who get appointed by the President, and not people who have just won their elections to the House of Representatives or Senate. If a member of congress or senator takes up a cabinet position they have to give up their seat in the House (and that position is filled by the state governor until another election can be called). Hence, you end up with John Ashcroft, who was voted out of his Missouri senate seat to a dead man, but then appointed as Attorney General by Dubya.
cf. Zac Goldsmith in the Lords.

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Re: After Corbyn

Post by Martin_B » Thu Apr 09, 2020 7:59 am

headshot wrote:
Thu Apr 09, 2020 7:00 am
Martin_B wrote:
Thu Apr 09, 2020 6:02 am
Millennie Al wrote:
Thu Apr 09, 2020 3:37 am


Obviously not. Politicians should be drawn from those who get elected. As indeed they are. The electorate get to decide and if they want to elect Oxbridge graduates they are perfectly entitled to do so.

Democracy is based on a strong presumption that ability to get elected is strongly correlated with the ability to run the country.
For the first part, yes-and-no. In a safe seat the party can put some fairly unelectable people up and they'll still get elected. My parent's constituency (Farnham/Surrey South West) voted in Harold McMillan's son 6 times, although before then he'd lost 4 of the 6 elections he stood for as an MP.

It's interesting (to me) the way that one of the differences between American and British governments is that in Britain you elect MPs to run the country, while in America the government (Secretaries of State, Defence, Industry, etc) are people who get appointed by the President, and not people who have just won their elections to the House of Representatives or Senate. If a member of congress or senator takes up a cabinet position they have to give up their seat in the House (and that position is filled by the state governor until another election can be called). Hence, you end up with John Ashcroft, who was voted out of his Missouri senate seat to a dead man, but then appointed as Attorney General by Dubya.
cf. Zac Goldsmith in the Lords.
Ah yes, I'd forgotten that Britain had a work-around for that. I wonder how the people of Richmond feel about seeing the man they voted out as MP remaining as a Minister of State for Foreign Affairs (is this like discussing Ugandan affairs?)
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Re: After Corbyn

Post by Pucksoppet » Thu Apr 09, 2020 8:49 am

Millennie Al wrote:
Thu Apr 09, 2020 3:37 am
Democracy is based on a strong presumption that ability to get elected is strongly correlated with the ability to run the country.
Another interesting point, and one where I would suggest that other abilities might have a better correlation. The House of Lords is an example.

At one time, the ability to win battles would have been a primary qualification, so change is possible.

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