After Corbyn

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Who will be the next Labour leader?

Angela Rayner
4
5%
John McDonnell
2
2%
Keir Starmer
44
52%
Rebecca Long-Bailey
8
10%
Emily Thornberry
0
No votes
Clive Lewis
1
1%
Yvette Cooper
17
20%
Laura Pidcock
1
1%
Clive Lewis
0
No votes
Tony Blair
7
8%
 
Total votes: 84

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Sciolus
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Re: After Corbyn

Post by Sciolus » Thu Apr 09, 2020 10:05 am

Martin_B wrote:
Thu Apr 09, 2020 6:02 am
It's interesting (to me) the way that one of the differences between American and British governments is that in Britain you elect MPs to run the country, while in America the government (Secretaries of State, Defence, Industry, etc) are people who get appointed by the President, and not people who have just won their elections to the House of Representatives or Senate. If a member of congress or senator takes up a cabinet position they have to give up their seat in the House (and that position is filled by the state governor until another election can be called). Hence, you end up with John Ashcroft, who was voted out of his Missouri senate seat to a dead man, but then appointed as Attorney General by Dubya.
In the US, the executive and the legislature are distinct and, by design if not always in reality, in tension with each other; whereas in the UK, the legislature is the pool from which the executive is drawn, so personal advancement means MPs strongly support the government.

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Re: After Corbyn

Post by bmforre » Thu Apr 09, 2020 10:13 am

Pucksoppet wrote:
Thu Apr 09, 2020 8:49 am
At one time, the ability to win battles would have been a primary qualification, so change is possible.
The kind of battle you must win to qualify may have changed: Where war used to be continuation of politics by other means we now often face politics as continuation of war. What says Spirit of Clausewitz?

Compare recent dismissal of US Navy captain. He tried to take care of the operational capability of an aircraft carrier and H&S of the sailors aboard. Unfortunately politicians read this as implying that all was not perfect in Trumps Own Country, a clear attack on Leader.

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Re: After Corbyn

Post by EACLucifer » Thu Apr 09, 2020 10:28 am

Clasewitz discussed the matter in the form of a dialectic. The continuation of policy with the inclusion of other means is probably a better way of getting across what Clausewitz meant. But he didn't mean it as a statement of fact, more as one end of a spectrum, with war being a one-on-one fight on a larger scale being the other end, and the reality existing somewhere inbetween, with elements of both.

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Re: After Corbyn

Post by bmforre » Thu Apr 09, 2020 11:32 am

Clausewitz discussed the matter in the form of a dialectic.
He was a contemporary of Hegel. Absolutes were being dissolved thoroughly at this time.

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Re: After Corbyn

Post by Bird on a Fire » Thu Apr 09, 2020 12:43 pm

Millennie Al wrote:
Thu Apr 09, 2020 3:37 am
Pucksoppet wrote:
Tue Apr 07, 2020 8:58 pm
Oxbridge graduates, who as a group are over-represented in positions of power.

There are at least two issues

1) Is the absolute difference in ability (if it exists) between Oxbridge graduates and other universities significant? I think Ken McKenzie could throw some interesting information into that debate. I think the tl;dr is that although the results of students entering Oxbridge are indeed in the top percentile, after the time in university, it is not so clear cut.
Since both Oxford and Cambridge use interviews to help select students, and politicians get elected based (at least partly) on how well they present themselves to the electorate, I would expect there to be a correlation as those who present themselves as well placed to benefit from an opportunity have an advantage in both.
2) Should politicians be drawn from the ranks of the people best at passing university final exams? In other words, does the ability to get a good result in a PPE exam translate into political excellence? Passing exams is not the same as actually doing the job, and good degree results may be a good indicator of someone who would do well in academia studying politics, rather than practising it.
Obviously not. Politicians should be drawn from those who get elected. As indeed they are. The electorate get to decide and if they want to elect Oxbridge graduates they are perfectly entitled to do so.

Democracy is based on a strong presumption that ability to get elected is strongly correlated with the ability to run the country.
Born at 356.32 ppm CO2

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Re: After Corbyn

Post by AMS » Thu Apr 09, 2020 7:01 pm

Just a comment on "Oxbridge", we need to know which version. For sure, it includes people from incredibly privileged backgrounds, like Rees-Mogg, Cameron and Johnson, for whom PPE (in the non-covid meaning) at Oxford was the step between private school and a job in the city/media/big business.

But most of the people I knew were bright kids from middle income families that were supportive of their kids' educations - not people that have had a tough start on the whole, but also not the elite old school tie cliques as found in the current government. I suspect the Oxbridge cohort within the Labour party are more likely drawn from this group too.

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Re: After Corbyn

Post by jimbob » Thu Apr 09, 2020 9:03 pm

AMS wrote:
Thu Apr 09, 2020 7:01 pm
Just a comment on "Oxbridge", we need to know which version. For sure, it includes people from incredibly privileged backgrounds, like Rees-Mogg, Cameron and Johnson, for whom PPE (in the non-covid meaning) at Oxford was the step between private school and a job in the city/media/big business.

But most of the people I knew were bright kids from middle income families that were supportive of their kids' educations - not people that have had a tough start on the whole, but also not the elite old school tie cliques as found in the current government. I suspect the Oxbridge cohort within the Labour party are more likely drawn from this group too.
That probably describes my daughter and her friends. She was/is about the closest to a Northerner in her college - Not really sure of the tense as she's in her final year, but won't be going back except to graduate.
Have you considered stupidity as an explanation

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Re: After Corbyn

Post by bjn » Thu Apr 09, 2020 9:29 pm

jimbob wrote:
Thu Apr 09, 2020 9:03 pm
AMS wrote:
Thu Apr 09, 2020 7:01 pm
Just a comment on "Oxbridge", we need to know which version. For sure, it includes people from incredibly privileged backgrounds, like Rees-Mogg, Cameron and Johnson, for whom PPE (in the non-covid meaning) at Oxford was the step between private school and a job in the city/media/big business.

But most of the people I knew were bright kids from middle income families that were supportive of their kids' educations - not people that have had a tough start on the whole, but also not the elite old school tie cliques as found in the current government. I suspect the Oxbridge cohort within the Labour party are more likely drawn from this group too.
That probably describes my daughter and her friends. She was/is about the closest to a Northerner in her college - Not really sure of the tense as she's in her final year, but won't be going back except to graduate.
It’s definitely MrsBJN, a clever Northern lass what got into Oxbridge. I met her through a colleague/business partner who was at Cambridge with her. So I know a whole Cambridge cohort from my connection with them that fit that mould, and nary a posh entitled Tory git among them.

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Re: After Corbyn

Post by badger » Thu Apr 09, 2020 9:43 pm

AMS wrote:
Thu Apr 09, 2020 7:01 pm
Just a comment on "Oxbridge", we need to know which version. For sure, it includes people from incredibly privileged backgrounds, like Rees-Mogg, Cameron and Johnson, for whom PPE (in the non-covid meaning) at Oxford was the step between private school and a job in the city/media/big business.

But most of the people I knew were bright kids from middle income families that were supportive of their kids' educations - not people that have had a tough start on the whole, but also not the elite old school tie cliques as found in the current government. I suspect the Oxbridge cohort within the Labour party are more likely drawn from this group too.
Just had a trawl through and there are four PPE-ers, none of whom are from the landed gentry (or especially privileged, as far as I can tell - it's the first time I've heard of some of them - ymmv).

Ed Miliband, Rachel Reeves, Nick Thomas-Symonds, Anneliese Dodds.

Other non-PPE Oxbridge in shadow cabinet:
Falconer, Griffith, Debbonaire, Phillipson, Healey, Allin-Khan (2nd degree)

Quite a few state schoolers there. No posh public schools, at first glance.

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Re: After Corbyn

Post by badger » Fri Apr 10, 2020 8:51 am

Oooo, they don't like Streeting and Phillips, do they? Lot of froth and bluster on the socials this morning. I suspect the modelling will show an exponential increase in SWP membership over the coming days. Are they really so unpalatable? Did they really 'prevent JC from winning' (by not supporting him, as appears to be the implication)?

ETA. Streeting another Oxbridge from State, to add to the numbers above.

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Re: After Corbyn

Post by jimbob » Fri Apr 10, 2020 7:27 pm

badger wrote:
Fri Apr 10, 2020 8:51 am
Oooo, they don't like Streeting and Phillips, do they? Lot of froth and bluster on the socials this morning. I suspect the modelling will show an exponential increase in SWP membership over the coming days. Are they really so unpalatable? Did they really 'prevent JC from winning' (by not supporting him, as appears to be the implication)?

ETA. Streeting another Oxbridge from State, to add to the numbers above.
No. Corbyn managed that on his own. For example, by chasing leave-voting safe Tory seats rather than campaigning in marginals like mine (Tory in 92, Labour in 97, Tory in 2010, Labour in 2017, Tory in 2019 by somewhere between 500 and 600 votes.
Have you considered stupidity as an explanation

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Re: After Corbyn

Post by badger » Sat Apr 11, 2020 7:50 am

jimbob wrote:
Fri Apr 10, 2020 7:27 pm
badger wrote:
Fri Apr 10, 2020 8:51 am
Oooo, they don't like Streeting and Phillips, do they? Lot of froth and bluster on the socials this morning. I suspect the modelling will show an exponential increase in SWP membership over the coming days. Are they really so unpalatable? Did they really 'prevent JC from winning' (by not supporting him, as appears to be the implication)?

ETA. Streeting another Oxbridge from State, to add to the numbers above.
No. Corbyn managed that on his own. For example, by chasing leave-voting safe Tory seats rather than campaigning in marginals like mine (Tory in 92, Labour in 97, Tory in 2010, Labour in 2017, Tory in 2019 by somewhere between 500 and 600 votes.
Indeed. Seems to be the more conventional analysis.

I know that Philips was at times rude and argumentative, but giving someone with direct experience of working with vulnerable women a ministerial brief for domestic violence and safe guarding isn't the massive betrayal of the left some people seem to be painting it as.

In other news, I see Starmer has fallen for the "medals for the NHS" trap. I know he's damned either way, but would have loved to see him spin it into an attack on the Tories. Anyway, it left me wondering how much of an early indicator it is of the kind of leader he's going to be.

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Re: After Corbyn

Post by badger » Sat Apr 11, 2020 9:15 am

Although JC now says they would've won the election before that. Even though he was himself surprised at how well he did.

https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/u ... orbyn-says

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