Well, whatever you want to call it, it results in British soldiers going into other people's countries, going into their homes, and murdering them. And for what? Lies in parliament? Access to oil? The share price of American arms manufacturers? Emerging markets for military contractors? It also results in the British state supporting appalling regimes such as the USA as they rampage around the world. Western countries are not noble actors on the world stage, to say the least, and the armed forces are the jackboots they stamp with. This isn't some leftist conspiracy theory. It is in the history books and the newspapers, provided you pay attention. If you are persuaded by the smokescreen of high sentiment the State uses to whitewash these activities for domestic audiences then I can only suggest you read more about it. But I have already done the reading, and so I am not persuaded.
Moral equivalence of the West and others, split from Corbyn thread
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Moral equivalence of the West and others, split from Corbyn thread
Thread split as the discussion has branched
Re: Moral equivalence of the West and others, split from Corbyn thread
I'm talking about the ideals of Western democracies. I know they are incredibly flawed in practice.secret squirrel wrote: ↑Wed Dec 11, 2019 2:14 amWell, whatever you want to call it, it results in British soldiers going into other people's countries, going into their homes, and murdering them. And for what? Lies in parliament? Access to oil? The share price of American arms manufacturers? Emerging markets for military contractors? It also results in the British state supporting appalling regimes such as the USA as they rampage around the world. Western countries are not noble actors on the world stage, to say the least, and the armed forces are the jackboots they stamp with. This isn't some leftist conspiracy theory. It is in the history books and the newspapers, provided you pay attention. If you are persuaded by the smokescreen of high sentiment the State uses to whitewash these activities for domestic audiences then I can only suggest you read more about it. But I have already done the reading, and so I am not persuaded.
But what do you propose replacing Western democracies with? Presumeably not terrorist run states or states with a bunch of competing armed groups like the IRA that happily and deliberately target civilians as a matter of top level policy.
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Re: Moral equivalence of the West and others, split from Corbyn thread
Well, Western countries are much more liberal socially, which is good, but in terms of foreign policy I don't think it's clear cut at all. Especially when you consider that the regimes you list are either supported by, or products of Western (primarily American as they call the shots) policy.
Re: Moral equivalence of the West and others, split from Corbyn thread
Sorry, I don't think we can have any further conversation about this until you recognize that there's some shades of gray, and that attempts at recognizing human rights, the rule of law and at not committing atrocities are valuable, even if they don't always succeed.secret squirrel wrote: ↑Wed Dec 11, 2019 9:50 amWell, Western countries are much more liberal socially, which is good, but in terms of foreign policy I don't think it's clear cut at all. Especially when you consider that the regimes you list are either supported by, or products of Western (primarily American as they call the shots) policy.
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Re:Moral equivalence of the West and others, split from Corbyn thread
Would mr squirrel help us out by outlining Isis's foreign policy?
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Re: Is Jeremy Corbyn rubbish or not? - split from After Corbyn thread
Or Saudi Arabia's. Or Russia's.GeenDienst wrote: ↑Wed Dec 11, 2019 10:08 amWould me squirrel help us out by outlining Isis's foreign policy?
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Re: Moral equivalence of the West and others, split from Corbyn thread
How can you look at the Western support for fascist coups in places like Chile, Indonesia, Argentina, and Nicaragua, the extra judicial murders by the likes of the CIA and the SAS, the support for the brutal invasion of East Timor by the fascist regime in Indonesia, everything we know about Vietnam from the Pentagon papers, the fact that annihilating nuclear first-strikes against the USSR were advocated at the highest levels of the American government, the funding of the very worst Islamist groups, the ongoing looting of Africa by Western countries, the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, the role of the IMF in forcing destructive economic policies on developing or otherwise unstable countries (including Russia in the collapse of the USSR), the massive incarcerated Black population in America, the increasing disconnect between the will of the people and legislation, the increasing domination of big business interests in politics, etc. etc. etc. and think the West (as embodied by the US and its hangers on) pay anything but lip-service to these ideals? At what point do you begin to suspect that it's not a sequence of aberrations? To be blunt, how many non-Westerners have to die before it makes an impression on you? What is missing from your brain? It's nice that you personally feel secure in your life, that you feel well served by the status quo, but you are extremely privileged.dyqik wrote: ↑Wed Dec 11, 2019 9:53 amSorry, I don't think we can have any further conversation about this until you recognize that there's some shades of gray, and that attempts at recognizing human rights, the rule of law and at not committing atrocities are valuable, even if they don't always succeed.
Re: Moral equivalence of the West and others, split from Corbyn thread
You are an apologist for those regimes. You are denying that those regimes can ever be improved on.secret squirrel wrote: ↑Wed Dec 11, 2019 12:16 pmHow can you look at the Western support for fascist coups in places like Chile, Indonesia, Argentina, and Nicaragua, the extra judicial murders by the likes of the CIA and the SAS, the support for the brutal invasion of East Timor by the fascist regime in Indonesia, everything we know about Vietnam from the Pentagon papers, the fact that annihilating nuclear first-strikes against the USSR were advocated at the highest levels of the American government, the funding of the very worst Islamist groups, the ongoing looting of Africa by Western countries, the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, the role of the IMF in forcing destructive economic policies on developing or otherwise unstable countries (including Russia in the collapse of the USSR), the massive incarcerated Black population in America, the increasing disconnect between the will of the people and legislation, the increasing domination of big business interests in politics, etc. etc. etc. and think the West (as embodied by the US and its hangers on) pay anything but lip-service to these ideals? At what point do you begin to suspect that it's not a sequence of aberrations? To be blunt, how many non-Westerners have to die before it makes an impression on you? What is missing from your brain? It's nice that you personally feel secure in your life, that you feel well served by the status quo, but you are extremely privileged.dyqik wrote: ↑Wed Dec 11, 2019 9:53 amSorry, I don't think we can have any further conversation about this until you recognize that there's some shades of gray, and that attempts at recognizing human rights, the rule of law and at not committing atrocities are valuable, even if they don't always succeed.
Last edited by dyqik on Wed Dec 11, 2019 1:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Moral equivalence of the West and others, split from Corbyn thread
My only point is to ask that you please stop defending fascism and terrorists with false equivalency.secret squirrel wrote: ↑Wed Dec 11, 2019 1:13 pmI'm sorry but this is just a stupid response. You've got nothing.
Re:Moral equivalence of the West and others, split from Corbyn thread
I thought you were talking about the IRA, not something that happened abroad.secret squirrel wrote: ↑Wed Dec 11, 2019 9:50 amWell, Western countries are much more liberal socially, which is good, but in terms of foreign policy I don't think it's clear cut at all. Especially when you consider that the regimes you list are either supported by, or products of Western (primarily American as they call the shots) policy.
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now I sin till ten past three
Re: Moral equivalence of the West and others, split from Corbyn thread
I don't think it's useful to declare a difference between at home and abroad for these purposes.Grumble wrote: ↑Wed Dec 11, 2019 3:17 pmI thought you were talking about the IRA, not something that happened abroad.secret squirrel wrote: ↑Wed Dec 11, 2019 9:50 amWell, Western countries are much more liberal socially, which is good, but in terms of foreign policy I don't think it's clear cut at all. Especially when you consider that the regimes you list are either supported by, or products of Western (primarily American as they call the shots) policy.
However, it does make the comparison invalid, as the IRA didn't have a foreign policy worthy of the name that you can compare.
Re: Moral equivalence of the West and others, split from Corbyn thread
1) We should judge by actions, not by identities. If you identify yourself as a nice kind liberal democracy but murder children, your identity doesn't count for anything
2) The actions of the IRA, ISIS etc etc are utterly terrible and every single one of us here condemn them
3) Bombs from nice kind liberal democracies kill a lot of children in Afghanistan, Syria etc. On one hand, this isn't the aim, and efforts are made to prevent these atrocities. On the other hand, the volume of bombing is far far greater than what the IRA could ever achieve. The very small % of atrocities multiplied by the huge volume of western bombings probably comes out somewhere equal to the very high % of atrocities multiplied by the tiny volume of terrorist bombing?
2) The actions of the IRA, ISIS etc etc are utterly terrible and every single one of us here condemn them
3) Bombs from nice kind liberal democracies kill a lot of children in Afghanistan, Syria etc. On one hand, this isn't the aim, and efforts are made to prevent these atrocities. On the other hand, the volume of bombing is far far greater than what the IRA could ever achieve. The very small % of atrocities multiplied by the huge volume of western bombings probably comes out somewhere equal to the very high % of atrocities multiplied by the tiny volume of terrorist bombing?
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Re: Moral equivalence of the West and others, split from Corbyn thread
The Black and Tans were explicitly supported by the British state, later on it turned a blind eye to the UDF, Red Hand Commandos et al.lpm wrote: ↑Wed Dec 11, 2019 4:20 pm1) We should judge by actions, not by identities. If you identify yourself as a nice kind liberal democracy but murder children, your identity doesn't count for anything
2) The actions of the IRA, ISIS etc etc are utterly terrible and every single one of us here condemn them
3) Bombs from nice kind liberal democracies kill a lot of children in Afghanistan, Syria etc. On one hand, this isn't the aim, and efforts are made to prevent these atrocities. On the other hand, the volume of bombing is far far greater than what the IRA could ever achieve. The very small % of atrocities multiplied by the huge volume of western bombings probably comes out somewhere equal to the very high % of atrocities multiplied by the tiny volume of terrorist bombing?
Re: Moral equivalence of the West and others, split from Corbyn thread
Yes. The British state also was not only complicit in, but actively created, slave labour in America. The British state then did more than most around the world at the time to stop slavery.bjn wrote: ↑Wed Dec 11, 2019 6:50 pmThe Black and Tans were explicitly supported by the British state, later on it turned a blind eye to the UDF, Red Hand Commandos et al.lpm wrote: ↑Wed Dec 11, 2019 4:20 pm1) We should judge by actions, not by identities. If you identify yourself as a nice kind liberal democracy but murder children, your identity doesn't count for anything
2) The actions of the IRA, ISIS etc etc are utterly terrible and every single one of us here condemn them
3) Bombs from nice kind liberal democracies kill a lot of children in Afghanistan, Syria etc. On one hand, this isn't the aim, and efforts are made to prevent these atrocities. On the other hand, the volume of bombing is far far greater than what the IRA could ever achieve. The very small % of atrocities multiplied by the huge volume of western bombings probably comes out somewhere equal to the very high % of atrocities multiplied by the tiny volume of terrorist bombing?
This doesn't mean that everything Britain does should be judged based on the creation of slavery, nor that everything that Britain does is morally superior because they worked to stop slavery.
I think what lpm means (and certainly what I believe) is that no-one is pure and no-one (well almost no-one) is irretrievably evil, and we should view each case on it's merits. Otherwise we're into the "Corbyn met Hamas terrorists therefore he's 100% anti-Semitic/Thatcher met Pinochet therefore she's complicit in war crimes" style squabbling which never resolves anything.
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