Should Scotland be independent?

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Re: Should Scotland be independent?

Post by Woodchopper » Wed Apr 28, 2021 8:33 am

causan_dux wrote:
Tue Apr 27, 2021 10:33 pm
This doesn't need a graphic (a right or a wrong one) to express it.

If Scotland quits the UK, it can have borders with other countries (which hardly needs to be said).

If an independent Scotland joins the EU, it must have a border with rUK. I think that single sentence is all that is needed to counteract this supposed SNP claim.

It appears to me that the whole diagram is intended to try to insidiously claim that independence and joining the EU would be economically disastrous for Scotland. That could be true "Given Scottish dependence on trade with UK" (meaning rUK), although this would depend on where the EU-UK trade terms are headed. But it is not true given the multitude of other arrangements that are possible, is it?
I don't think the claim is insidious given that it clearly stated.

Whether a border along the Tweed and divergent regulation between Scotland and rUK would be economically disastrous for Scotland is a different question. Partly it'll depend upon how people think of what counts as disastrous. As with Brexit, opinions may differ. Given that the Scottish economy is more integrated with that of the rUK than the UK was integrated with the EU, I can assume that the economic effects would be worse then we've seen with Brexit.

There's a big difference between what's possible and what's plausible within the next few years. If a referendum on Scottish independence were to have a yes result in 2022, then the negotiations would be with the Johnson government. I can't see how it would accept following EU regulations etc in order to keep an open border with Scotland as an EU member. Similarly, given its stance on Ireland, I can't see the EU being willing to accept an open border with the rUK.

That narrows down what other arrangements may be possible.

If the referendum was at some point in the future then other things may be possible. A UK rejoining the EU would make Scottish independence much easier in practice. But realistically that would be decades in the future, if ever.

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Re: Should Scotland be independent?

Post by bjn » Wed Apr 28, 2021 12:30 pm

noggins wrote:
Wed Apr 28, 2021 8:27 am
But Ireland is a real nation that suffered under the british imperialism, while scottishnessland is just a region with a funny accent, some odd dietary habits and a chip on its shoulder.

However while the nationalist case for Scotsxit is a load of deluded cryptonationalist drivel, English politics seems to be degenerating to such an extent that the scots might well be better off practically for fleeing.
Can I have a Londxit for the same reason?

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Re: Should Scotland be independent?

Post by jcm » Wed Apr 28, 2021 8:17 pm

noggins wrote:
Wed Apr 28, 2021 8:27 am
But Ireland is a real nation that suffered under the british imperialism, while scottishnessland is just a region with a funny accent, some odd dietary habits and a chip on its shoulder.

However while the nationalist case for Scotsxit is a load of deluded cryptonationalist drivel, English politics seems to be degenerating to such an extent that the scots might well be better off practically for fleeing.
Please define "real nation"? Was that true of Ireland in 1921? You do realise that The Act of Union defined parts of the Scottish state that should continue (separate legal system, education, faith, etc). "Funny accent" is pretty offensive too, given like in Ireland and Wales one of our languages was banned (Gaelic), and the other certainly discouraged, even 40 years ago (Scots). Outwith your particular area of England you may be surprised to find that many people think you have a "funny accent" too!
Maybe I'm just showing the chip on my shoulder though?

Interesting that you seem to think that's an acceptable response, not exhibiting nasty bigotry and defining the "we're much better than those funny colonies" little Englander attitude that many in Scotland wish to get away from.

What's so wrong with a small european nation wanting to decide for itself how it is governed anyway, given the historical and current differences in political outlook with the rest of the UK?
Obviously there would be considerable difficulties in the initial period, but that is part of the detailed and evidenced discussion amongst the population here, not brushed under the carpet a la Brexit. The 2014 indyref period gave rise to a highly politically engaged generation, which is still visible in the various dialogues currently occurring (if not necessarily in party politics).

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Re: Should Scotland be independent?

Post by noggins » Thu Apr 29, 2021 8:47 am

I object to the little Scotlander being seen as more virtuous than the little Englander.

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Re: Should Scotland be independent?

Post by Martin Y » Thu Apr 29, 2021 9:02 am

noggins wrote:
Thu Apr 29, 2021 8:47 am
I object to the little Scotlander being seen as more virtuous than the little Englander.
The Little Scotlander defines himself as punching up and the Little Englander as punching down, so his confidence in his virtue is unshakeable.

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Re: Should Scotland be independent?

Post by discovolante » Thu Apr 29, 2021 9:16 am

I mean, it sort of seems that people have entirely different people in mind when they are talking about Scottish and English people respectively. But if noggins was being serious in the post jcm replied to then it was kind of rude and inaccurate. As per the OP, I'm still relatively new to Scotland and the pandemic has put a bit of a different spin on things so I still don't really want to lash out that confidently but...well like any issue there are a lot of people who are extremely tribal about it (Wings over Scotland anyone?) and those who aren't, but that doesn't mean it's fair to portray the entire debate as if that's all there is. It seems to me that views that Scottish politics is this wonderful mature system compared to the sleaze of Westminster politics is quite naive, but the semi-proportional representation system in the Scottish parliament does seem to allow for a greater plurality of views and overall better governance than Westminster in general (although I'm sure you could find exceptions), which feeds into discussions about independence where there is respectful disagreement among people I know at least.
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Re: Should Scotland be independent?

Post by discovolante » Fri Jul 01, 2022 1:32 pm

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Re: Should Scotland be independent?

Post by Bird on a Fire » Fri Jul 01, 2022 2:50 pm

Minority government it is, then. If we're lucky.

Still, plenty of time for him to figure out what kind of stuff they can do horse-trading on in, especially as he's already ruling out a referendum, which always goes well e.g. Catalonia.
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Re: Should Scotland be independent?

Post by Woodchopper » Fri Jul 01, 2022 5:50 pm

Bird on a Fire wrote:
Fri Jul 01, 2022 2:50 pm
Minority government it is, then. If we're lucky.

Still, plenty of time for him to figure out what kind of stuff they can do horse-trading on in, especially as he's already ruling out a referendum, which always goes well e.g. Catalonia.
Labour are a unionist party after all. It’s difficult to see how they could have a formal coalition with another party with whom they disagree so fundamentally.

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Re: Should Scotland be independent?

Post by Bird on a Fire » Fri Jul 01, 2022 6:30 pm

Woodchopper wrote:
Fri Jul 01, 2022 5:50 pm
Bird on a Fire wrote:
Fri Jul 01, 2022 2:50 pm
Minority government it is, then. If we're lucky.

Still, plenty of time for him to figure out what kind of stuff they can do horse-trading on in, especially as he's already ruling out a referendum, which always goes well e.g. Catalonia.
Labour are a unionist party after all. It’s difficult to see how they could have a formal coalition with another party with whom they disagree so fundamentally.
I dunno, it worked ok for the Conservatives having a junior coalition partner with whom they disagreed a lot. Labour just have to offer a referendum on Alternative Scotland Plus or whatever, rather than the thing the SNP actually want, and then do whatever they like.

Starmer seems to be ruling out any kind of confidence-and-supply arrangement too, or any kind of "deal", not just formal coalitions.

Perhaps the simple offering of a referendum, on which any such agreement would have to hinge, is considered a rubicon that can't be crossed. I'm honestly not sure where Scottish independence ranks as a priority for the majority of Labour voters (and potentials), but on other priorities like austerity, the NHS, education, corruption, etc., Labour would probably (a) find much to agree with with SNP, and (b) be considerably more effective with other parties' support than as a minority.

The decision looks more like it's being made for Daily Mail reasons than for policy reasons. Because they won't just make up some other b.llsh.t instead.
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Re: Should Scotland be independent?

Post by EACLucifer » Fri Jul 01, 2022 8:36 pm

Bird on a Fire wrote:
Fri Jul 01, 2022 6:30 pm
Woodchopper wrote:
Fri Jul 01, 2022 5:50 pm
Bird on a Fire wrote:
Fri Jul 01, 2022 2:50 pm


Minority government it is, then. If we're lucky.

Still, plenty of time for him to figure out what kind of stuff they can do horse-trading on in, especially as he's already ruling out a referendum, which always goes well e.g. Catalonia.
Labour are a unionist party after all. It’s difficult to see how they could have a formal coalition with another party with whom they disagree so fundamentally.
I dunno, it worked ok for the Conservatives having a junior coalition partner with whom they disagreed a lot. Labour just have to offer a referendum on Alternative Scotland Plus or whatever, rather than the thing the SNP actually want, and then do whatever they like.

Starmer seems to be ruling out any kind of confidence-and-supply arrangement too, or any kind of "deal", not just formal coalitions.

Perhaps the simple offering of a referendum, on which any such agreement would have to hinge, is considered a rubicon that can't be crossed. I'm honestly not sure where Scottish independence ranks as a priority for the majority of Labour voters (and potentials), but on other priorities like austerity, the NHS, education, corruption, etc., Labour would probably (a) find much to agree with with SNP, and (b) be considerably more effective with other parties' support than as a minority.

The decision looks more like it's being made for Daily Mail reasons than for policy reasons. Because they won't just make up some other b.llsh.t instead.
I think it's also likely because no responsible party would f.ck over the country as hard as the SNP want to, or allow anyone else to do so. It's not "daily mail reasons" to want to avoid massive economic damage and political chaos.

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Re: Should Scotland be independent?

Post by temptar » Fri Jul 01, 2022 8:51 pm

England voted for Brexit. Scottish independence won’t come close to causing that sort of economic damage. So let’s not assume that the English en masse prioritise avoiding economic chaos.

The record is not good here.

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Re: Should Scotland be independent?

Post by Bird on a Fire » Fri Jul 01, 2022 8:58 pm

temptar wrote:
Fri Jul 01, 2022 8:51 pm
England voted for Brexit. Scottish independence won’t come close to causing that sort of economic damage. So let’s not assume that the English en masse prioritise avoiding economic chaos.

The record is not good here.
Yep. SNP are campaigning on rejoining the EU, which seems to be about the best thing any part of the UK could do for its economy. The English wouldn't go for it of course, so I can understand Scotland wanting rid and equally understand Starmer not making it their thing.
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Re: Should Scotland be independent?

Post by EACLucifer » Fri Jul 01, 2022 9:08 pm

temptar wrote:
Fri Jul 01, 2022 8:51 pm
England voted for Brexit. Scottish independence won’t come close to causing that sort of economic damage. So let’s not assume that the English en masse prioritise avoiding economic chaos.

The record is not good here.
I didn't say the English en masse are priotising avoiding economic chaos, or anything remotely resembling that.

I said a responsible party - something Labour should aspire to being - ought to.

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Re: Should Scotland be independent?

Post by Woodchopper » Fri Jul 01, 2022 9:41 pm

Bird on a Fire wrote:
Fri Jul 01, 2022 6:30 pm
Woodchopper wrote:
Fri Jul 01, 2022 5:50 pm
Bird on a Fire wrote:
Fri Jul 01, 2022 2:50 pm


Minority government it is, then. If we're lucky.

Still, plenty of time for him to figure out what kind of stuff they can do horse-trading on in, especially as he's already ruling out a referendum, which always goes well e.g. Catalonia.
Labour are a unionist party after all. It’s difficult to see how they could have a formal coalition with another party with whom they disagree so fundamentally.
I dunno, it worked ok for the Conservatives having a junior coalition partner with whom they disagreed a lot. Labour just have to offer a referendum on Alternative Scotland Plus or whatever, rather than the thing the SNP actually want, and then do whatever they like.

Starmer seems to be ruling out any kind of confidence-and-supply arrangement too, or any kind of "deal", not just formal coalitions.

Perhaps the simple offering of a referendum, on which any such agreement would have to hinge, is considered a rubicon that can't be crossed. I'm honestly not sure where Scottish independence ranks as a priority for the majority of Labour voters (and potentials), but on other priorities like austerity, the NHS, education, corruption, etc., Labour would probably (a) find much to agree with with SNP, and (b) be considerably more effective with other parties' support than as a minority.

The decision looks more like it's being made for Daily Mail reasons than for policy reasons. Because they won't just make up some other b.llsh.t instead.
A key consideration for the UK Labour leadership is the Labour Party in Scotland. If Labour were to announce a pact with the SNP that would be very bad news for Scottish Labour.

Firstly, Scottish unionists are about 50 per cent of the population. If Labour appears to be supporting the SNP then the only two unionist parties left in Scotland are the Lib Dems and the Tories. So unionist votes would likely go there.

Secondly, the similarities that you write about are the problem. Take out unionism and there’s much less reason for someone to vote Labour instead of the SNP.

Thirdly, unionism or independence is a huge issue. The economic disruption for Scotland would likely be much greater than after Brexit. It may be that it’s a price worth paying. But independence (like Brexit) would dominate the agenda and make it far more difficult to achieve the rest of Labour’s policies.

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Re: Should Scotland be independent?

Post by nekomatic » Sat Jul 02, 2022 7:10 pm

It’s entirely standard for political parties to rule out any deals with other parties before an election. After an election where a deal with another party would offer them a route to power, it’s always possible to come up with a justification for making an exception.

Scottish independence differs from Brexit in that Scotland arguably does labour under the burden of harmful and unwanted laws made far away that they have little or no say in, but it’s similar to Brexit in that doing anything with it implies regulatory divergence from one’s major trading partner, and if Brexit has taught us one thing it’s that regulatory divergence from one’s major trading partner doesn’t come cheap.
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Re: Should Scotland be independent?

Post by EACLucifer » Sat Jul 02, 2022 8:47 pm

nekomatic wrote:
Sat Jul 02, 2022 7:10 pm
It’s entirely standard for political parties to rule out any deals with other parties before an election. After an election where a deal with another party would offer them a route to power, it’s always possible to come up with a justification for making an exception.

Scottish independence differs from Brexit in that Scotland arguably does labour under the burden of harmful and unwanted laws made far away that they have little or no say in, but it’s similar to Brexit in that doing anything with it implies regulatory divergence from one’s major trading partner, and if Brexit has taught us one thing it’s that regulatory divergence from one’s major trading partner doesn’t come cheap.
Little to no say? That's absolute nonsense. Scotland has 59 MPs in the House of Commons - 9% - which isn't bad, given they've only got 8.2% of the population of the UK, they are, in the commons, ever so slightly overrepresented, but also have a devolved legislature on top of that.

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Re: Should Scotland be independent?

Post by Bird on a Fire » Sat Jul 02, 2022 9:37 pm

9% is effectively no say, if Scottish voters en masse want something different to English voters.

I suspect some form of constitutional reform is inevitable.

It would be more consistent for England to also have a devolved parliament for English stuff (solving the West Lothian problem), with Westminster doing UK-wide things. That kind of internal reconfiguration might be less disruptive than Scexit (? What's the cool nickname for it?) while still resolving some of the tension that's understandably accumulated over the last decade or so.
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Re: Should Scotland be independent?

Post by EACLucifer » Sat Jul 02, 2022 9:51 pm

Bird on a Fire wrote:
Sat Jul 02, 2022 9:37 pm
9% is effectively no say, if Scottish voters en masse want something different to English voters.
The same is true of literally any region, except the rest of us don't have our own parliament to address things passed by Westminster.

Or, to put it another way, Scottish voters are, on a voter by voter basis, privileged compared to English ones.

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Re: Should Scotland be independent?

Post by Bird on a Fire » Sat Jul 02, 2022 10:12 pm

Yes, I expect most regions have little no say in the rules that affect them. It doesn't have to be disproportionate to be problematic.
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Re: Should Scotland be independent?

Post by nekomatic » Sun Jul 03, 2022 9:32 am

EACLucifer wrote:
Sat Jul 02, 2022 9:51 pm
Bird on a Fire wrote:
Sat Jul 02, 2022 9:37 pm
9% is effectively no say, if Scottish voters en masse want something different to English voters.
The same is true of literally any region, except the rest of us don't have our own parliament to address things passed by Westminster.
There is no region where the Conservatives’ vote share in 2019 was as far from the national result as it was in Scotland. It’s true in principle of any region, but it’s true in practice in Scotland more than anywhere else.

As a Labour supporter and Hibernophile in England, I’d like to see Scotland stay in the UK and proportional representation for Westminster, which had we had it a while ago might have considerably lessened the pressure for Scottish independence. It may be too late for that though.
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Re: Should Scotland be independent?

Post by temptar » Sun Jul 03, 2022 10:32 am

EACLucifer wrote:
Sat Jul 02, 2022 9:51 pm

Or, to put it another way, Scottish voters are, on a voter by voter basis, privileged compared to English ones.
Yet it isn’t the fault of Scotland that there isn’t a local assembly for England. The fact that England did not get devolution is a very strong indicator that Scotland, Wales and NI were ruled by England and were not equal partners in an equal partnership. Brexit reinforces that btw.

This is something that many English find difficult to comprehend by the way. That the partnerships were broadly not equal. Westminster still comes across as rule by the English for the English. Not rule by the British for Britain.

The UK was Ireland’s biggest trading partner at independence in 1922. It still was in 1973. It is not now. Scotland has experience to draw on and they aren’t actively trying to piss off the rest of Europe.

What will be will be and we don’t get to travel the multiverse to find out what might have been.

But from the outside, A) Scotland would be better of as an EU member than a UK member simply because its representation at Council would be far more equal and B) it wouldn’t be subject to the vagaries of the utterly undemocratic FPTP. In time, it could eve declare a republic if it wants.

In short, if you think Scotland is over privileged, agitate for an English assembly. That is how the Scots and Welsh got theirs. In the meantime, English people telling Scots they shouldn’t have independence is ever so hypocritical in the context of the threats to Scotland’s EU membership in 2014 and what the English did in 2016.

Because that was imposed by England.

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Re: Should Scotland be independent?

Post by shpalman » Sun Jul 03, 2022 11:30 am

If Labour's majority were to be propped up in the UK by SNP MPs, and then Scotland becomes independent such that the SNP is no longer a part of the UK parliament, what happens to Labour's majority?

Or is that not how it works what do I know.
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Re: Should Scotland be independent?

Post by purplehaze » Sun Jul 03, 2022 11:39 am

temptar wrote:
Sun Jul 03, 2022 10:32 am
EACLucifer wrote:
Sat Jul 02, 2022 9:51 pm

Or, to put it another way, Scottish voters are, on a voter by voter basis, privileged compared to English ones.
Yet it isn’t the fault of Scotland that there isn’t a local assembly for England. The fact that England did not get devolution is a very strong indicator that Scotland, Wales and NI were ruled by England and were not equal partners in an equal partnership. Brexit reinforces that btw.

This is something that many English find difficult to comprehend by the way. That the partnerships were broadly not equal. Westminster still comes across as rule by the English for the English. Not rule by the British for Britain.

The UK was Ireland’s biggest trading partner at independence in 1922. It still was in 1973. It is not now. Scotland has experience to draw on and they aren’t actively trying to piss off the rest of Europe.

What will be will be and we don’t get to travel the multiverse to find out what might have been.

But from the outside, A) Scotland would be better of as an EU member than a UK member simply because its representation at Council would be far more equal and B) it wouldn’t be subject to the vagaries of the utterly undemocratic FPTP. In time, it could eve declare a republic if it wants.

In short, if you think Scotland is over privileged, agitate for an English assembly. That is how the Scots and Welsh got theirs. In the meantime, English people telling Scots they shouldn’t have independence is ever so hypocritical in the context of the threats to Scotland’s EU membership in 2014 and what the English did in 2016.

Because that was imposed by England.
This by Temptar, all of it. Great post.

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Re: Should Scotland be independent?

Post by EACLucifer » Sun Jul 03, 2022 11:58 am

temptar wrote:
Sun Jul 03, 2022 10:32 am
EACLucifer wrote:
Sat Jul 02, 2022 9:51 pm

Or, to put it another way, Scottish voters are, on a voter by voter basis, privileged compared to English ones.
Yet it isn’t the fault of Scotland that there isn’t a local assembly for England. The fact that England did not get devolution is a very strong indicator that Scotland, Wales and NI were ruled by England and were not equal partners in an equal partnership. Brexit reinforces that btw.

This is something that many English find difficult to comprehend by the way. That the partnerships were broadly not equal. Westminster still comes across as rule by the English for the English. Not rule by the British for Britain.

The UK was Ireland’s biggest trading partner at independence in 1922. It still was in 1973. It is not now. Scotland has experience to draw on and they aren’t actively trying to piss off the rest of Europe.

What will be will be and we don’t get to travel the multiverse to find out what might have been.

But from the outside, A) Scotland would be better of as an EU member than a UK member simply because its representation at Council would be far more equal and B) it wouldn’t be subject to the vagaries of the utterly undemocratic FPTP. In time, it could eve declare a republic if it wants.

In short, if you think Scotland is over privileged, agitate for an English assembly. That is how the Scots and Welsh got theirs. In the meantime, English people telling Scots they shouldn’t have independence is ever so hypocritical in the context of the threats to Scotland’s EU membership in 2014 and what the English did in 2016.

Because that was imposed by England.
Literally every one of these sentences is responding to a point I didn't make.

The key words which you appeared to miss were "on a voter by voter basis".

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