Should Scotland be independent?

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Woodchopper
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Re: Should Scotland be independent?

Post by Woodchopper » Wed Apr 28, 2021 8:33 am

causan_dux wrote:
Tue Apr 27, 2021 10:33 pm
This doesn't need a graphic (a right or a wrong one) to express it.

If Scotland quits the UK, it can have borders with other countries (which hardly needs to be said).

If an independent Scotland joins the EU, it must have a border with rUK. I think that single sentence is all that is needed to counteract this supposed SNP claim.

It appears to me that the whole diagram is intended to try to insidiously claim that independence and joining the EU would be economically disastrous for Scotland. That could be true "Given Scottish dependence on trade with UK" (meaning rUK), although this would depend on where the EU-UK trade terms are headed. But it is not true given the multitude of other arrangements that are possible, is it?
I don't think the claim is insidious given that it clearly stated.

Whether a border along the Tweed and divergent regulation between Scotland and rUK would be economically disastrous for Scotland is a different question. Partly it'll depend upon how people think of what counts as disastrous. As with Brexit, opinions may differ. Given that the Scottish economy is more integrated with that of the rUK than the UK was integrated with the EU, I can assume that the economic effects would be worse then we've seen with Brexit.

There's a big difference between what's possible and what's plausible within the next few years. If a referendum on Scottish independence were to have a yes result in 2022, then the negotiations would be with the Johnson government. I can't see how it would accept following EU regulations etc in order to keep an open border with Scotland as an EU member. Similarly, given its stance on Ireland, I can't see the EU being willing to accept an open border with the rUK.

That narrows down what other arrangements may be possible.

If the referendum was at some point in the future then other things may be possible. A UK rejoining the EU would make Scottish independence much easier in practice. But realistically that would be decades in the future, if ever.

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bjn
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Re: Should Scotland be independent?

Post by bjn » Wed Apr 28, 2021 12:30 pm

noggins wrote:
Wed Apr 28, 2021 8:27 am
But Ireland is a real nation that suffered under the british imperialism, while scottishnessland is just a region with a funny accent, some odd dietary habits and a chip on its shoulder.

However while the nationalist case for Scotsxit is a load of deluded cryptonationalist drivel, English politics seems to be degenerating to such an extent that the scots might well be better off practically for fleeing.
Can I have a Londxit for the same reason?

jcm
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Re: Should Scotland be independent?

Post by jcm » Wed Apr 28, 2021 8:17 pm

noggins wrote:
Wed Apr 28, 2021 8:27 am
But Ireland is a real nation that suffered under the british imperialism, while scottishnessland is just a region with a funny accent, some odd dietary habits and a chip on its shoulder.

However while the nationalist case for Scotsxit is a load of deluded cryptonationalist drivel, English politics seems to be degenerating to such an extent that the scots might well be better off practically for fleeing.
Please define "real nation"? Was that true of Ireland in 1921? You do realise that The Act of Union defined parts of the Scottish state that should continue (separate legal system, education, faith, etc). "Funny accent" is pretty offensive too, given like in Ireland and Wales one of our languages was banned (Gaelic), and the other certainly discouraged, even 40 years ago (Scots). Outwith your particular area of England you may be surprised to find that many people think you have a "funny accent" too!
Maybe I'm just showing the chip on my shoulder though?

Interesting that you seem to think that's an acceptable response, not exhibiting nasty bigotry and defining the "we're much better than those funny colonies" little Englander attitude that many in Scotland wish to get away from.

What's so wrong with a small european nation wanting to decide for itself how it is governed anyway, given the historical and current differences in political outlook with the rest of the UK?
Obviously there would be considerable difficulties in the initial period, but that is part of the detailed and evidenced discussion amongst the population here, not brushed under the carpet a la Brexit. The 2014 indyref period gave rise to a highly politically engaged generation, which is still visible in the various dialogues currently occurring (if not necessarily in party politics).

noggins
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Re: Should Scotland be independent?

Post by noggins » Thu Apr 29, 2021 8:47 am

I object to the little Scotlander being seen as more virtuous than the little Englander.

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Martin Y
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Re: Should Scotland be independent?

Post by Martin Y » Thu Apr 29, 2021 9:02 am

noggins wrote:
Thu Apr 29, 2021 8:47 am
I object to the little Scotlander being seen as more virtuous than the little Englander.
The Little Scotlander defines himself as punching up and the Little Englander as punching down, so his confidence in his virtue is unshakeable.

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discovolante
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Re: Should Scotland be independent?

Post by discovolante » Thu Apr 29, 2021 9:16 am

I mean, it sort of seems that people have entirely different people in mind when they are talking about Scottish and English people respectively. But if noggins was being serious in the post jcm replied to then it was kind of rude and inaccurate. As per the OP, I'm still relatively new to Scotland and the pandemic has put a bit of a different spin on things so I still don't really want to lash out that confidently but...well like any issue there are a lot of people who are extremely tribal about it (Wings over Scotland anyone?) and those who aren't, but that doesn't mean it's fair to portray the entire debate as if that's all there is. It seems to me that views that Scottish politics is this wonderful mature system compared to the sleaze of Westminster politics is quite naive, but the semi-proportional representation system in the Scottish parliament does seem to allow for a greater plurality of views and overall better governance than Westminster in general (although I'm sure you could find exceptions), which feeds into discussions about independence where there is respectful disagreement among people I know at least.
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