Getting Brexit done

[Stephanie]

Possible movement on fishing? https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... talks-2021

[Fishnut]

I still can't understand why fishing is such a key area. I was listening to a BBC Documentary podcast called the British and their fish and I was left with a real sense of pointlessness. The fishermen were lamenting the start-up costs (£600k for a boat, another £600k for a fishing licence) and how the few big British companies bought all the quotas so they were scraps. One Grimsby-based fisherman was saying that in the 60s the quay would have been full of boats, whereas now there's about 10 of them. Another person said there's about 3 towns that still consider themselves to be 'fishing' towns. Yet somehow the fate of the country depends on placating them.

[Woodchopper]

Possible movement on fishing? https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... talks-2021

Yes, it looks like there is a deal to be had. So long as they don’t run out of time.

[JQH]

Is anyone watching that pair of prize c.nts giving a briefing from No 10?
f.ck me, useless, smirking bullshitting idiots.

I've stopped watching the briefings. I tend to shout at the telly whenever the over promoted public school tw.t opens his lying festering gob.

[Fishnut]

This is a great summary of the current shitshow, and makes very similar points to the podcast I mentioned, but with references this time rather than my own vaguely-recollected ramblings.

...a deal is all but done on everything that matters, according to Michael Gove. Except fish. The government has chosen the sea for the final battle, the most emotive yet least economically important. Harrods alone adds as much to the UK economy as fishing, according to the Financial Times.

Pause here a moment to consider what monumentally dishonest use the Brexiters make of the romance of coastal ports and fishing villages, whose 12,000 small boat fishermen are more precious for picturesque tourism than the value of their catch. True, the overall UK quota is historically unfair. But the greater injustice by far to our fishers is our own government’s allocation of quotas to large companies. Two-thirds of the UK’s quota of fish goes to just three multinationals; boats under 10m long get just 4% though they account for 77% of fishers. A Greenpeace report found a quarter of Britain’s quota was owned by five families, all in the Sunday Times rich list.

What’s more, Britain is almost alone in allowing holders of the UK quota to sell it to foreign companies: so one Dutch ship, landing its fish in the Netherlands, had the right to catch 23% of the UK’s quota. British “slipper skippers” were allowed to put their feet up and live off the earnings from selling their quota to foreign companies. If concern for our small boat fishing fleet were really the impediment to a vital Brexit deal, the government should be getting tough on preventing this sell-off. If Brexit was for protecting the little boats championed in a flotilla up the Thames ahead of the referendum, where’s the pledge to take the quota off the giant companies to give to them?

[Woodchopper]

Fishing rights are important because it’s a symbol, and symbols are important.

The importance of symbols isn’t restricted to Brexiteers. Just look at how upset people have been about a sculpture or statues commemorating dead women and men.

[Woodchopper]

Thread on the practicalities of extending the transition period: https://twitter.com/GeorginaEWright/sta ... 76356?s=20

tl;dr not easy, as the most likely path would be to negotiate a separate agreement which would involve some difficult decisions, especially on how much the UK would continue to provide to and receive from the EU budget.

[Stephanie]

Apparently the EU have rejected the fishing compromise
https://www.theneweuropean.co.uk/brexit ... nt-6864140

[Woodchopper]

Under the terms of an agreement between Spain, Britain and Gibraltar that is in its last stages of negotiation, British nationals traveling to Gibraltar from the United Kingdom would have to go through passport control, while Spaniards would be able to enter freely and Gibraltarians would have open access to Spain and the other countries that are part of the Schengen Area, where border controls have been abolished. Gibraltar would not have a land border for people going into its territory, but it would have reinforced airport border controls.

This is the main practical consequence of a deal to define the British Overseas Territory’s relationship with Spain, whose southern province of Cádiz it borders, when the Brexit transition period ends on December 31. The last hurdle involves the role of the European Border and Coast Guard Agency (Frontex) in this future relationship.

If ongoing talks are successful, Gibraltar will for the first time join the Schengen Area, which allows the free movement of people across 26 European countries (22 members of the European Union plus Norway, Switzerland, Iceland and Liechtenstein). The UK was never a part of Schengen.

https://english.elpais.com/brexit/2020- ... nched.html

[Woodchopper]

Another Tony Connelly summary: https://twitter.com/tconnellyrte/status ... 37604?s=21

Fish and several outstanding issues remain.

The 24th is the deadline for provisional application. Let’s see what happens to that deadline. But there will be a real one before the 31st.

The full text is now circa 2000 pages including annexes.

[plodder]

Another Tony Connelly summary: https://twitter.com/tconnellyrte/status ... 37604?s=21

Fish and several outstanding issues remain.

The 24th is the deadline for provisional application. Let’s see what happens to that deadline. But there will be a real one before the 31st.

The full text is now circa 2000 pages including annexes.

important to note that any text received now won’t be “legally scrubbed” and any deal will therefore be fudgy in nature, with ratification (and presumably further conversation - anyone remember the furore over the word “federal” back in the day?) to follow in the spring.

Also worth noting neither set of parliaments have seen the text, and there are plenty of long-term transitions in there. Really difficult to assess how hard or soft this particular brexit will ultimately be (my guess is hard enough).

Also interesting to note the number of informed commentators on both sides of the Leave / Remain debate who are unhappy. It’s often the case that if neither side is happy then the compromise is about right, but that’s a hopeless approach from a political perspective.

[Woodchopper]

Another Tony Connelly summary: https://twitter.com/tconnellyrte/status ... 37604?s=21

Fish and several outstanding issues remain.

The 24th is the deadline for provisional application. Let’s see what happens to that deadline. But there will be a real one before the 31st.

The full text is now circa 2000 pages including annexes.

important to note that any text received now won’t be “legally scrubbed” and any deal will therefore be fudgy in nature, with ratification (and presumably further conversation - anyone remember the furore over the word “federal” back in the day?) to follow in the spring.

Also worth noting neither set of parliaments have seen the text, and there are plenty of long-term transitions in there. Really difficult to assess how hard or soft this particular brexit will ultimately be (my guess is hard enough).

Also interesting to note the number of informed commentators on both sides of the Leave / Remain debate who are unhappy. It’s often the case that if neither side is happy then the compromise is about right, but that’s a hopeless approach from a political perspective.

Yes, any meaningful ratification is going to take months. The European or UK parliaments ratifying over a few days would have just made them look ridiculous.

A risk with provisional application is that the deal gets implemented, then one party or other has an objection, and it has to be renegotiated (and changing one section may affect others). So everyone remains in limbo.

I doubt that any deal negotiated by Johnson would leave a remainer happy. Though they might support it as an alternative to WTO terms. Johnson appears to be most worried about opinion within his party.

[Woodchopper]

The 24th is the deadline for provisional application. Let’s see what happens to that deadline. But there will be a real one before the 31st.

According to this, provisional application would still require consultation with some national parliaments. That would take some days (especially none are sitting at the moment). So if the 24th isn't the real deadline, its going to be close.
https://www.politico.eu/article/eu-brex ... line-deal/

[plebian]

I still can't understand why fishing is such a key area. I was listening to a BBC Documentary podcast called the British and their fish and I was left with a real sense of pointlessness. The fishermen were lamenting the start-up costs (£600k for a boat, another £600k for a fishing licence) and how the few big British companies bought all the quotas so they were scraps. One Grimsby-based fisherman was saying that in the 60s the quay would have been full of boats, whereas now there's about 10 of them. Another person said there's about 3 towns that still consider themselves to be 'fishing' towns. Yet somehow the fate of the country depends on placating them.

It's a tiny amount for an industry that has already died several times. It is however the hill Boris has decided to die on because it's one of the only things with which they can seem to take back any control. I was laughing at the arbitration clause - somehow releasing our sovereignty to a court of arbitration was better than using the European court of justice. I confess these schismatic semantic nuances are lost on me.

[plebian]

Fishing rights are important because it’s a symbol, and symbols are important.

The importance of symbols isn’t restricted to Brexiteers. Just look at how upset people have been about a sculpture or statues commemorating dead women and men.

I wouldn't compare fishing rights with human rights tbh.

[Little waster]

Fishing rights are important because it’s a symbol, and symbols are important.

The importance of symbols isn’t restricted to Brexiteers. Just look at how upset people have been about a sculpture or statues commemorating dead women and men.

I wouldn't compare fishing rights with human rights tbh.

And TBF if you told me chucking Colston into the Bristol harbour would cost us 20% of the economy I’d probably be happy to leave the mostly-forgotten evil old scrote on his plinth.

[Woodchopper]

Fishing rights are important because it’s a symbol, and symbols are important.

The importance of symbols isn’t restricted to Brexiteers. Just look at how upset people have been about a sculpture or statues commemorating dead women and men.

I wouldn't compare fishing rights with human rights tbh.

I wouldn't dream of suggesting that they are equivalent. I was just thinking of another political dispute over something that's symbolic.

A lot of the most ardent Brexiters want a tangible sign that after all the effort things will be different than they were before. The trade stuff is pretty arcane, but they imagine that fishing rights fit the bill. Will the French, Danes, Dutch etc now have to ask for permission to fish in British waters and will Britain be able to give those rights to British boats instead.*

*Yes, most of the waters aren't UK territorial waters, and most of the boats will probably be crewed by sailors from the Philippines, but that doesn't matter.

[Woodchopper]

Fishing rights are important because it’s a symbol, and symbols are important.

The importance of symbols isn’t restricted to Brexiteers. Just look at how upset people have been about a sculpture or statues commemorating dead women and men.

I wouldn't compare fishing rights with human rights tbh.

And TBF if you told me chucking Colston into the Bristol harbour would cost us 20% of the economy I’d probably be happy to leave the mostly-forgotten evil old scrote on his plinth.

The problem is that the Brexiters have already f.cked the economy. They really need a sign that they gained something, that it was worth it. So its blue passports and fishing rights.

[plodder]

A risk with provisional application is that the deal gets implemented, then one party or other has an objection, and it has to be renegotiated (and changing one section may affect others). So everyone remains in limbo.

It's a big risk. It's not even been translated yet - this is what reminded me of the "federal" hoo-ha years ago - there are lots of words with imprecise translations that lawyers will struggle with.

[dyqik]

Fishing rights are important because it’s a symbol, and symbols are important.

The importance of symbols isn’t restricted to Brexiteers. Just look at how upset people have been about a sculpture or statues commemorating dead women and men.

I wouldn't compare fishing rights with human rights tbh.

I wouldn't dream of suggesting that they are equivalent. I was just thinking of another political dispute over something that's symbolic.

A lot of the most ardent Brexiters want a tangible sign that after all the effort things will be different than they were before. The trade stuff is pretty arcane, but they imagine that fishing rights fit the bill. Will the French, Danes, Dutch etc now have to ask for permission to fish in British waters and will Britain be able to give those rights to British boats instead.*

*Yes, most of the waters aren't UK territorial waters, and most of the boats will probably be crewed by sailors from the Philippines, but that doesn't matter.

Britain has already sold most of its own fishing licenses* to the Dutch, Danes, French and Belgians.

[shpalman]

Italian news reckons a deal is imminent in the next couple of hours.

[Bird on a Fire]

Italian news reckons a deal is imminent in the next couple of hours.

Kuensberg's just said the same on teh Beeb.

[Woodchopper]

Well not today, maybe tomorrow.

Of course there was going to be a false start.

[shpalman]

next few hours would technically be tomorrow, yes

"huge concessions"

"OH MY GOODNESS"

(and other unverifiable stuff)

[Little waster]

next few hours would technically be tomorrow, yes

"huge concessions"

"OH MY GOODNESS"

(and other unverifiable stuff)

Brexiteers are already denouncing it as a betrayal, sight unseen.

It’s heartwarming to see they have retained such faith in the success of Brexit, hold all the cards, have our cake and eat it, sunny uplands, need us more than they need them, free trade area 14-times* the size of the EU from day 1 etc.


*which iirc would make it several times larger than the entire planets GDP, presumably it includes John Redwoods home planet too.