Getting Brexit done

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plodder
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Re: Getting Brexit done

Post by plodder » Mon Jan 27, 2020 9:36 am

sheldrake wrote:
Mon Jan 27, 2020 8:25 am
Your answer combines ignorance about how many IT workers already come from Russia, India &the Ukraine with a projection about what your imaginary brexit voter boogeymen will think about (a thing thats already happened). Too silly.
The carbon footprint of workers travelling from Europe is lower than from the places you list. Plus they won't have to join the long queue at the airport or fill out forms beforehand.

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Re: Getting Brexit done

Post by sheldrake » Mon Jan 27, 2020 10:37 am

plodder wrote:
Mon Jan 27, 2020 9:36 am

The carbon footprint of workers travelling from Europe is lower than from the places you list.
Not if they arrive neatly packed in shipping containers. Much lower carbon than Easyjet.
Plus they won't have to join the long queue at the airport or fill out forms beforehand.
Neither of those things are a big deal.

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Re: Getting Brexit done

Post by plodder » Mon Jan 27, 2020 11:02 am

The workers that arrive here in shipping containers tend to cost quite a lot in police time, funerals, repatriation of bodies etc. They do stimulate the media economy though, like Keynes' broken windows.

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Re: Getting Brexit done

Post by sheldrake » Mon Jan 27, 2020 11:08 am

plodder wrote:
Mon Jan 27, 2020 11:02 am
The workers that arrive here in shipping containers tend to cost quite a lot in police time, funerals, repatriation of bodies etc. They do stimulate the media economy though, like Keynes' broken windows.
If you're really concerned about the carbon footprint of workers who aren't from the EU, you must be incandescant with rage about the import of products from China.

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bjn
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Re: Getting Brexit done

Post by bjn » Mon Jan 27, 2020 11:24 am

plodder wrote:
Mon Jan 27, 2020 9:36 am
sheldrake wrote:
Mon Jan 27, 2020 8:25 am
Your answer combines ignorance about how many IT workers already come from Russia, India &the Ukraine with a projection about what your imaginary brexit voter boogeymen will think about (a thing thats already happened). Too silly.
The carbon footprint of workers travelling from Europe is lower than from the places you list. Plus they won't have to join the long queue at the airport or fill out forms beforehand.
It’s really expensive to employ IT workers from non EU countries. The cost to do that is on both the employer and employee. Its thousands. Upfront and ongoing. It may be worth it some cases. My (as in I’m a director of) company will only employ people with a current legal right to reside and work in the UK as we haven’t found any one where the effort is worth it. Leaving the EU will reduce the talent pool I can draw on.

I also don’t know any Russians or Indian nationals working in my fields in the U.K. Some Americans and Canucks.

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Re: Getting Brexit done

Post by sheldrake » Mon Jan 27, 2020 11:26 am

bjn wrote:
Mon Jan 27, 2020 11:24 am
plodder wrote:
Mon Jan 27, 2020 9:36 am
sheldrake wrote:
Mon Jan 27, 2020 8:25 am
Your answer combines ignorance about how many IT workers already come from Russia, India &the Ukraine with a projection about what your imaginary brexit voter boogeymen will think about (a thing thats already happened). Too silly.
The carbon footprint of workers travelling from Europe is lower than from the places you list. Plus they won't have to join the long queue at the airport or fill out forms beforehand.
It’s really expensive to employ IT workers from non EU countries. The cost to do that is on both the employer and employee. Its thousands. Upfront and ongoing. It may be worth it some cases. My (as in I’m a director of) company will only employ people with a current legal right to reside and work in the UK as we haven’t found any one where the effort is worth it. Leaving the EU will reduce the talent pool I can draw on.

I also don’t know any Russians or Indian nationals working in my fields in the U.K. Some Americans and Canucks.
My company's London office is brimming with people from outside the EU, as are its peers.

plodder
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Re: Getting Brexit done

Post by plodder » Mon Jan 27, 2020 11:37 am

sheldrake wrote:
Mon Jan 27, 2020 11:08 am
plodder wrote:
Mon Jan 27, 2020 11:02 am
The workers that arrive here in shipping containers tend to cost quite a lot in police time, funerals, repatriation of bodies etc. They do stimulate the media economy though, like Keynes' broken windows.
If you're really concerned about the carbon footprint of workers who aren't from the EU, you must be incandescant with rage about the import of products from China.
Consumerism? Don't get me started.

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Re: Getting Brexit done

Post by plodder » Mon Jan 27, 2020 11:41 am

sheldrake wrote:
Mon Jan 27, 2020 11:26 am

My company's London office is brimming with people from outside the EU, as are its peers.
Let's assume you work for a highly successful tech firm, rather than an SME.

The costs are disproportionately smaller for the tech firm and its market-leading salaries. What's a few grand in admin to get someone who you'll pay £200 grand a year to? However the vast majority of people, including immigrants, work for SMEs. That same few grand is a stronger incentive when you're paying £40k.

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Re: Getting Brexit done

Post by sheldrake » Mon Jan 27, 2020 11:52 am

plodder wrote:
Mon Jan 27, 2020 11:41 am
sheldrake wrote:
Mon Jan 27, 2020 11:26 am

My company's London office is brimming with people from outside the EU, as are its peers.
Let's assume you work for a highly successful tech firm, rather than an SME.

The costs are disproportionately smaller for the tech firm and its market-leading salaries. What's a few grand in admin to get someone who you'll pay £200 grand a year to? However the vast majority of people, including immigrants, work for SMEs. That same few grand is a stronger incentive when you're paying £40k.
The 40K IT roles don't really require access to international talent markets to staff, unless we're actively refusing to invest in training for the existing population?

I've worked for SMEs too, and done my time on less than 40k.

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Re: Getting Brexit done

Post by dyqik » Mon Jan 27, 2020 12:08 pm

plodder wrote:
Mon Jan 27, 2020 11:41 am
sheldrake wrote:
Mon Jan 27, 2020 11:26 am

My company's London office is brimming with people from outside the EU, as are its peers.
Let's assume you work for a highly successful tech firm, rather than an SME.

The costs are disproportionately smaller for the tech firm and its market-leading salaries. What's a few grand in admin to get someone who you'll pay £200 grand a year to? However the vast majority of people, including immigrants, work for SMEs. That same few grand is a stronger incentive when you're paying £40k.
It also takes longer to get someone into place if you have to go through the employment visa process - about 6-9 months for us hiring in the US, as a government agency that isn't subject to the annual visa quotas.

Delays in hiring people is also expensive, and can lead to gaps in knowledge because someone leaving doesn't have the opportunity to train their replacement - something that disproportionately hits smaller teams and businesses.

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Re: Getting Brexit done

Post by plodder » Mon Jan 27, 2020 12:09 pm

In my field there are loads and loads of people from abroad working in that salary range. Your perspective is distorted by the relative highest salaries available in the UK. Most immigrants are not in this bracket - this is self evident - most people are not in this bracket.

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Re: Getting Brexit done

Post by jimbob » Mon Jan 27, 2020 4:20 pm

dyqik wrote:
Mon Jan 27, 2020 12:08 pm
plodder wrote:
Mon Jan 27, 2020 11:41 am
sheldrake wrote:
Mon Jan 27, 2020 11:26 am

My company's London office is brimming with people from outside the EU, as are its peers.
Let's assume you work for a highly successful tech firm, rather than an SME.

The costs are disproportionately smaller for the tech firm and its market-leading salaries. What's a few grand in admin to get someone who you'll pay £200 grand a year to? However the vast majority of people, including immigrants, work for SMEs. That same few grand is a stronger incentive when you're paying £40k.
It also takes longer to get someone into place if you have to go through the employment visa process - about 6-9 months for us hiring in the US, as a government agency that isn't subject to the annual visa quotas.

Delays in hiring people is also expensive, and can lead to gaps in knowledge because someone leaving doesn't have the opportunity to train their replacement - something that disproportionately hits smaller teams and businesses.
Exactly.

We have a lot of engineers from inside and outside the EU. Getting work visas for the non-EU engineers has been a long process for many years, and this will extend to EU engineers too. It's not a way of improving the competitiveness of our company.

Our business isn't very small, having a turnover >$400M in this country.
Have you considered stupidity as an explanation

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Re: Getting Brexit done

Post by Little waster » Tue Jan 28, 2020 8:54 am

£46m "Get Ready for Brexit" campaign had "little effect" says NAO.
“Not undertaking the campaign would have risked significant and unnecessary disruption to businesses and to people’s lives,” a spokesperson for the cabinet office said.
I leave the punchline as an exercise for the reader ...
Shamelessly recycling old jokes since 1952.

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Gentleman Jim
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Re: Getting Brexit done

Post by Gentleman Jim » Fri Jan 31, 2020 9:56 am

https://twitter.com/ByDonkeys/status/12 ... 6421946369
EPmYpLoX4AABoBo.jpg
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True friends stab you in the front

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Gentleman Jim
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Re: Getting Brexit done

Post by Gentleman Jim » Fri Jan 31, 2020 10:37 am

wang.jpg
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True friends stab you in the front

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Re: Getting Brexit done

Post by TopBadger » Fri Jan 31, 2020 12:33 pm

So, today is B-Day... that's the name I'm going for anyway as we'll need one to clean up the sh.t.
You can't polish a turd...
unless its Lion or Osterich poo... http://dsc.discovery.com/videos/mythbus ... -turd.html

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Re: Getting Brexit done

Post by dyqik » Fri Jan 31, 2020 12:41 pm

TopBadger wrote:
Fri Jan 31, 2020 12:33 pm
So, today is B-Day... that's the name I'm going for anyway as we'll need one to clean up the sh.t.
Quick reminder that most of the sh.t won't hit until the end of the transition period. Until then, the UK is pretty much still in the EU, but with no say in how it's run.

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Gentleman Jim
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Re: Getting Brexit done

Post by Gentleman Jim » Fri Jan 31, 2020 12:48 pm

Part of me is soooo pissed off by people like Francois that I wish the EU would just say to de Pfeffel - "OK Just f.ck off and leave. Forget alignment etc and just go play with yourself in the corner"
Then watch Brexit places like Sunderland, Swindon, Wrexham etc get what they voted for.

Hopefully, after November, it wont be Trumpland and I can escape there
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Re: Getting Brexit done

Post by JQH » Fri Jan 31, 2020 1:51 pm

Even if it's not Trumpland anymore, do you really want to move to a country with no free-at-the-point-of-use health care?
And remember that if you botch the exit, the carnival of reaction may be coming to a town near you.

Fintan O'Toole

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Gentleman Jim
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Re: Getting Brexit done

Post by Gentleman Jim » Fri Jan 31, 2020 2:03 pm

JQH wrote:
Fri Jan 31, 2020 1:51 pm
Even if it's not Trumpland anymore, do you really want to move to a country with no free-at-the-point-of-use health care?

Good point - although, who replaces him may have some bearing, too
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Re: Getting Brexit done

Post by Orabona » Fri Jan 31, 2020 4:17 pm

The end of B-Day draws near, and soon we may hear the chimes at midnight (Central European Time).

'They may ring their bells now; before long they will be wringing their hands.' *

*Walpole, 1739, at the start of the War of Jenkins' Ear. Exact wording varies with source. 1066 and All That has '...I shall be wringing their necks soon'.

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Gfamily
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Re: Getting Brexit done

Post by Gfamily » Fri Jan 31, 2020 4:51 pm

We should be positive - think of it like this...
Brexit as freedom.jpg
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My avatar was a scientific result that was later found to be 'mistaken' - I rarely claim to be 100% correct

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Re: Getting Brexit done

Post by tenchboy » Fri Jan 31, 2020 5:15 pm

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Re: Getting Brexit done

Post by Pucksoppet » Fri Jan 31, 2020 10:35 pm

It is a big practical experiment: Can plucky Britain confound the dismal predications of expert economists? Will Betteridge's law of headlines apply?

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Re: Getting Brexit done

Post by GeenDienst » Fri Jan 31, 2020 10:56 pm

OK, 5 mins to go and f.ck them. f.ck their jobs, their towns, their communities, their so called righteous left'behind resentment. f.ck rhem all.
Just tell 'em I'm broke and don't come round here no more.

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