Scrutable

Posted: **Tue Jun 30, 2020 6:42 pm**

lpm wrote: ↑
Tue Jun 30, 2020 5:27 pm

Bird on a Fire wrote: ↑
Tue Jun 30, 2020 3:55 pm
Alternatively there's a few countries that do 'investment visas', where you just invest a huge load of cash (€500k in Portugal, over a million in others) e.g. by buying property or a business. That's proving a bit controversial here, because any property worth about €350k+ in the Lisbon area gets put on the market for €500k and bought by a foreigner (usually Chinese people) so they and their family can get EU residence. Not great for locals trying to get on the property ladder! In those cases the visa holder has to reside in Portugal for 6 months of the year.
Presumably it has to be €500k cash? I can't take out a €400k mortgage and buy a €500k house?

I wanna be EUian again. I liked it when I was. Ever since Brexit it seems like I've just be trapped indoors, never going away on holiday, never even going out to restaurants or pubs.

The US equivalent is specifically for investment in a business.

Now, that might be a real estate business that gives you a peppercorn rent in exchange for your investment (I don't know if this is legal or not), but I don't think you could get a mortgage for that investment.

Posted: **Tue Jun 30, 2020 7:34 pm**

sTeamTraen wrote: ↑
Tue Jun 30, 2020 1:30 pm

Woodchopper wrote: ↑
Tue Jun 30, 2020 12:47 pm

Lew Dolby wrote: ↑
Tue Jun 30, 2020 12:45 pm
AIUI from friends who achieved it a year or three ago but after the referendum, they also need to show some level of master of the language and that they've lived and paid their taxes in France for a min of 5 years.

[my understanding may well be flawed !!]
Yes, those as well probably.
Those are requirements to apply for French nationality. France, like most civilised countries, does not impose a requirement for you to have any level of language proficiency before you can become a legal resident; for one thing, it might stop a multinational company from sending a manager there for a posting. I can, however, think of one country that is planning to impose such a requirement...

A language test is required for a French residence permit, though there is an exception for the over 65s.
https://www.service-public.fr/particuli ... its/F34501

This site appears to provide some useful advice for Brits wanting to move to France post-Brexit. The process would seem to be to apply for a 1 year visa, and once in France apply for a Carte de séjour temporaire "visiteur" d'un étranger en France.

The main hurdle is for a couple to show that they have EUR 2048 net income per month, and health insurance (which is going to be expensive for over 65s). That's not possible on a UK state pension, but of course lots of retirees have other sources of income.

So it seems possible that a couple could have bought the property and planned to live there on a UK state pension. That wouldn't be possible now.

Posted: **Tue Jun 30, 2020 7:39 pm**

sTeamTraen wrote: ↑
Tue Jun 30, 2020 1:30 pm
I really want to know if that Twitter thread is real. I'm currently leaning towards it being fake, perhaps based on a couple of crumbs of truth. The author tweeted earlier that it was indeed real (having had some pushback in the comments), but I am skeptical. He seems to be a professional writer and the amusing anecdotes are coming rather thick and fast (oo-er missus). The thread has 50,000 likes and has presumably been seen by people who live nearby and would know exactly who these individuals are. The "idiot son", in particular, might object to that description.

Its common in parts of teh interwebs to change parts of a story in order to protect people's privacy. So the idiot son could be an idiot sister etc.

I don't really care whether its true or not. There are lots of voters who don't pay much attention and believe people like the current Prime Minister who explicitly told them that after Brexit "British people will still be able to go and work in the EU; to live; to travel; to study; to buy homes and to settle down."

Posted: **Tue Jun 30, 2020 9:02 pm**

lpm wrote: ↑
Tue Jun 30, 2020 5:27 pm

Bird on a Fire wrote: ↑
Tue Jun 30, 2020 3:55 pm
Alternatively there's a few countries that do 'investment visas', where you just invest a huge load of cash (€500k in Portugal, over a million in others) e.g. by buying property or a business. That's proving a bit controversial here, because any property worth about €350k+ in the Lisbon area gets put on the market for €500k and bought by a foreigner (usually Chinese people) so they and their family can get EU residence. Not great for locals trying to get on the property ladder! In those cases the visa holder has to reside in Portugal for 6 months of the year.
Presumably it has to be €500k cash? I can't take out a €400k mortgage and buy a €500k house?

I wanna be EUian again. I liked it when I was. Ever since Brexit it seems like I've just be trapped indoors, never going away on holiday, never even going out to restaurants or pubs.

I think it has to be a net investment, so you couldn't get a Portuguese mortgage but probably could borrow the money in the UK (e.g. by remortgaging a property there) and then invest it in Portugal.

There are other options, too:

Capital Transfer - The transfer of at least €1 million to Portugal

Create 10 full-time jobs - Creation of 10 new full-time jobs within a Portuguese business in the format of a single-member limited company. (Reduced to eight positions if in a low-density area)

Invest in €500,000 in Real Estate - Real Estate investment of at least €500,000 of any type of real estate and anywhere in Portugal. (Reduced to €400,000 if it is located in a low-density area);

Invest in Real Estate Rehabilitation - Real Estate and its rehabilitation, investment in eligible properties that are over 30 years of age or are located in designated areas of urban rehabilitation AND (ii) the property purchase price plus the ex-VAT value of the rehabilitation work contract of at least €350,000. (Reduced to €280,000 if located in a low-density area).

Investment into preserving national heritage - Investment into the conservation of national heritage, arts and culture of at least €250,000;

Investment in research - Investment in research conducted by accredited institutions that are part of the national scientific and technological system of at least €350,000

Investment into an existing business - Investment into an existing Portugal-registered business, or at least €350,000 to either incorporate or increase the share capital AND create at least 5 full-time permanent jobs for a minimum period of three years

Investment into private equity funds - A Golden Visa €350,000 minimum investment can be made to a private equity fund. This can be a more convenient option for some as it avoids the hassle of looking for property and subsequent management.

According to Global Citizen Solutions.

Also, I was totally wrong about the residence requirements - you only need to spend seven days in the first year and 14 days in the subsequent years in Portugal (consecutively or non-consecutively).

They're actually changing the rules this year, to exclude the centres of Lisbon and Porto, which will hopefully help a bit with local rents.

You can get amazing properties for that price here. Our two-bed flat was a mere €64k (though it was lacking a kitchen).

Posted: **Tue Jun 30, 2020 9:12 pm**

shpalman wrote: ↑
Tue Jun 30, 2020 1:44 pm

Little waster wrote: ↑
Tue Jun 30, 2020 1:38 pm

shpalman wrote: ↑
Tue Jun 30, 2020 1:35 pm
Officially I think any language out of Italian, French, German or English
You don't fool us, shouting while waving your hands in the air doesn't count as a language.
Whereas English is just... shouting? And making stupid stereotypical "joke" assumptions about foreigners?

SHOUT...ING...VER...RY...SLOW...LY

Posted: **Tue Jun 30, 2020 9:19 pm**

HE'S FROM BARCELONA

Posted: **Tue Jun 30, 2020 9:24 pm**

And Que-ing

Posted: **Wed Jul 01, 2020 6:11 am**

Well Brexit is definitely getting done now then.

Posted: **Wed Jul 01, 2020 9:13 am**

discovolante wrote: ↑
Wed Jul 01, 2020 6:11 am
Well Brexit is definitely getting done now then.

Yup. Deadline day for any extension to the transition period was yesterday. My bet is as close to No Deal as saves the blushes.

Posted: **Wed Jul 01, 2020 9:41 am**

And covid can be blamed for the other "ills" that will soon be upon us

Posted: **Wed Jul 01, 2020 10:03 am**

There is an older British couple in my village who are starting to get worried about their futures because they blindly believed everything would be OK (we can trust Boris, he’s funny) and because they barely speak enough French to order a coffee, let alone deal with gouv.fr and the state’s penchant for form-filling.

Sometimes I channel a kind of Rousseau/Niemöller thing and wonder if I should try to help them. But then I figure that enthusiastic Brexiters can just go and f.ck themselves.

Posted: **Wed Jul 01, 2020 10:04 am**

I have a few friends looking for postdocs at the moment. All of them have said they aren't interested in going to the UK (largely because of the uncertainty about their long-term status, rather than perceived hostility, which is interesting). The same sentiment was prevalent amongst my MSc cohort when we graduated in France in 2016 - so the UK government hasn't managed to convince people that Britain remains "open" in 4 years.

Posted: **Wed Jul 01, 2020 10:35 am**

It isn't at all surprising that the UK govt hasn't persuaded anyone outside the UK that they have a plan for how things will work after Brexit since they haven't persuaded anyone inside the UK either. One side assumes it'll be a shambles and the other side hasn't yet begun to care.

Posted: **Wed Jul 01, 2020 10:39 am**

The deadline for requesting an extension to the transition period has just passed. So Britain will either be out on its own on 1 January, or will have to accept what the EU offers it.

Posted: **Wed Jul 01, 2020 10:55 am**

Woodchopper wrote: ↑
Wed Jul 01, 2020 10:39 am
The deadline for requesting an extension to the transition period has just passed. So Britain will either be out on its own on 1 January, or will have to accept what the EU offers it.

See a few posts up

Posted: **Wed Jul 01, 2020 11:06 am**

Brexit has already happened. On 31 January 2020.

As most Leave voters expected, nothing much changed.

Posted: **Wed Jul 01, 2020 11:11 am**

lpm wrote: ↑
Wed Jul 01, 2020 11:06 am
Brexit has already happened. On 31 January 2020.

As most Leave voters expected, nothing much changed.

That's because the withdrawal agreement was basically a copy and paste of the existing regulations. I'm expecting (hoping) this will happen again at the next deadline.

Posted: **Wed Jul 01, 2020 11:13 am**

Woodchopper wrote: ↑
Wed Jul 01, 2020 10:39 am
The deadline for requesting an extension to the transition period has just passed.

Deadline schmeadline.

(But no, I'm not expecting Boris to do anything useful.)

Posted: **Wed Jul 01, 2020 11:28 am**

discovolante wrote: ↑
Wed Jul 01, 2020 10:55 am

Woodchopper wrote: ↑
Wed Jul 01, 2020 10:39 am
The deadline for requesting an extension to the transition period has just passed. So Britain will either be out on its own on 1 January, or will have to accept what the EU offers it.
See a few posts up

Sorry missed that one.

Posted: **Wed Jul 01, 2020 11:40 am**

Good summary of the differences on state aid, and where there might be a possible solution.
https://twitter.com/pmdfoster/status/12 ... 7478626304

Posted: **Wed Jul 01, 2020 12:18 pm**

I idly wondered at stupid o'clock this morning whether Johnson's adamancy about not extending the transition period was in any way linked ot the likelihood of Trump being ousted in January, and there being only a small window to sign a Trump trade deal before he foxtrot oscars. Not sure where the democrabs are on a trade deal.

Posted: **Wed Jul 01, 2020 12:21 pm**

Woodchopper wrote: ↑
Tue Jun 30, 2020 7:39 pm

sTeamTraen wrote: ↑
Tue Jun 30, 2020 1:30 pm
I really want to know if that Twitter thread is real. I'm currently leaning towards it being fake, perhaps based on a couple of crumbs of truth. The author tweeted earlier that it was indeed real (having had some pushback in the comments), but I am skeptical. He seems to be a professional writer and the amusing anecdotes are coming rather thick and fast (oo-er missus). The thread has 50,000 likes and has presumably been seen by people who live nearby and would know exactly who these individuals are. The "idiot son", in particular, might object to that description.
Its common in parts of teh interwebs to change parts of a story in order to protect people's privacy. So the idiot son could be an idiot sister etc.

I don't really care whether its true or not. There are lots of voters who don't pay much attention and believe people like the current Prime Minister who explicitly told them that after Brexit "British people will still be able to go and work in the EU; to live; to travel; to study; to buy homes and to settle down."

Oh, there are lots of great points about Brexit in the thread, and I have been trying to contribute background information to those who have asked (in good faith, but also to Julia Hartley-Brewer) what the problems are.

But the author has insisted twice now that every detail is true, even though it's just amazing how every character is so colourful: The lawyer (new today) who is paranoid about Skype, the mayor who comes round chummily for an apéro and laughs about how all his staff are going to be taking the piss out of the idiot son, the idiot son's boss WhatsApping with titbits about the idiot son falling off a bridge in Hemel Hempstead... the guy is good, the story is full of laughs, it reminds me of The Fall and Rise of Reginald Perrin in places, but the whole thing is clearly at least 95% fictional. I'd guess the only thing that happened is the neighbours discovered they will need a long-term Schengen visa and private health cover to retire there, and everything else took off in the guy's imagination. Apart from anything else, if he really is who he says he is, someone will have worked out what town it is by now, and the mayor would not take kindly to it being reported that he behaved in such an unprofessional way.

Anyway, he doesn't seem to take kindly to even the gentlest suggestions that it might not all be true, as he has blocked me for saying so.

Posted: **Wed Jul 01, 2020 12:24 pm**

El Pollo Diablo wrote: ↑
Wed Jul 01, 2020 12:18 pm
I idly wondered at stupid o'clock this morning whether Johnson's adamancy about not extending the transition period was in any way linked ot the likelihood of Trump being ousted in January, and there being only a small window to sign a Trump trade deal before he foxtrot oscars. Not sure where the democrabs are on a trade deal.

I think it's very unlikely that if Biden wins on November 3, the House will approve a single thing that Trump puts in front of them. But in any case if Trump loses, he (and Jared and Ivanka) will be too busy arranging to hide all the bodies and have Air Force One drop them off in Moscow.

Posted: **Wed Jul 01, 2020 12:38 pm**

Is the house a part of the process for agreeing trade deals?

Posted: **Wed Jul 01, 2020 12:51 pm**

sTeamTraen wrote: ↑
Wed Jul 01, 2020 12:24 pm

El Pollo Diablo wrote: ↑
Wed Jul 01, 2020 12:18 pm
I idly wondered at stupid o'clock this morning whether Johnson's adamancy about not extending the transition period was in any way linked ot the likelihood of Trump being ousted in January, and there being only a small window to sign a Trump trade deal before he foxtrot oscars. Not sure where the democrabs are on a trade deal.
I think it's very unlikely that if Biden wins on November 3, the House will approve a single thing that Trump puts in front of them. But in any case if Trump loses, he (and Jared and Ivanka) will be too busy arranging to hide all the bodies and have Air Force One drop them off in Moscow.

But on the flip side, any deal between Trump and the UK will be so heavily in the US's favour* that even a Democrat-dominated House, President etc. will just go "thank you very much, now where did I put that rubber-stamp?".

Which is bad news for us, regardless.

*not due to any inherent genius deal making by Trump, just due to the desperate and weak negotiating position the UK has put itself in and the fact any demands on the NHS, food safety, watering down of environmental and workers' rights etc. will be pushing against an open door with the Unchained Britannia ghouls in charge.

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