Associate EU citizenship

[sTeamTraen]

This idea was first floated just after the Brexit referendum and has recently made a reappearance, e.g. here (aside: can this board do embedded tweets?)

I think it's prima facie(*) completely bonkers, but if anyone can explain to me how it might work in practice (show your working, in detail, including the application process and the legal status of people once they have obtained this status), I'm all ears.

(*) I'm not sure if this should be italicised or not. APA style says to use italics for non-English expressions unless they are in common usage. For example, "a priori" would typically not be italicised in a scientific article. </nerdproblems>

[dyqik]

It could involve any rights from a large range of options, so I guess it's hard to criticize it as a concept without specifics. Until there are concrete proposals, I don't think you can say it's obviously bollocks.

A low level and not too difficult option could be something like a permanent or longer term US ESTA status - just being in an EU-wide tourist/business travel visa waiver system permanently (no employment visa status). That could easily be given to anyone currently eligible, and be paid for service for new people asking for it well after Brexit. Adding employment visa status or priority could get messy quickly, but not necessarily.

Estonia's e-residency thing is also out there as an option that could be explored. That's basically working, I think.

[sTeamTraen]

ESTA is basically just a pre-filling in of the I-94 form that people used to complete during the descent into JFK in turbulence after a few drinks. I don't blame the Americans for putting it online so the data actually matches the passport. The new EU system called ETIAS will be similar - I think the mooted price is 5 Euros for 3 years, which is a third of the price per year of the ESTA. But I really don't think that this is what Verhofstadt means.

[Woodchopper]

When it was discussed before by Verhofstadt, Associate Citizenship just meant a visa free right to work in EU member states.

That might be feasible. The hurdle being that working visas are issued by national authorities so negotiations would be complex.

There would be many difficult issues: what about non-working dependents, or if someone lost their job, or decided to retire?

[GeenDienst]

ISTR Verhofstadt (who is wonderful) abandoned the idea back then as it did not fit the treaties.

[Cardinal Fang]

I think as well as concrete things like retaining rights to freedom of movement, there's are more intangible reasons people want this. For many of us being European and being British are not an either/ or thing, and the fact that my (European) citizenship and rights are being taken away from me against my will based on a wafer thin majority in a a fraudulently conducted advisory referendum is something I remain extremely angry about. To be able to retain the part of my identity that is that of a European citizen is quite important to me on an existential level

[Little waster]

Some triggered gammon BTL. How dare this Eurocrat defy the unanimous Will of the People by suggesting a voluntary system for the Remoaner majority to retain some aspects of their European citizenship that the xenophobic minority insist they must relinquish. It’s like something from the Soviet Union!

[dyqik]

ESTA is basically just a pre-filling in of the I-94 form that people used to complete during the descent into JFK in turbulence after a few drinks. I don't blame the Americans for putting it online so the data actually matches the passport. The new EU system called ETIAS will be similar - I think the mooted price is 5 Euros for 3 years, which is a third of the price per year of the ESTA. But I really don't think that this is what Verhofstadt means.

Yeah, that's at the very lowest end of what could be meant, but clearly works in practice and can be implemented.

E-residency is something that could be implemented with a bit more work.

[GeenDienst]

Wot Fang said up there a bit.

[Bird on a Fire]

I'm not having a go, but I don't recall ever hearing anybody ever say that they "identify as European" before the referendum.

[bjn]

I'm not having a go, but I don't recall ever hearing anybody ever say that they "identify as European" before the referendum.

It’s how I described myself pre-2016. I would have worded it differently, but all the same.

[TimW]

Same here, but I'm not sure anyone asked me.

[dyqik]

Same here, but I'm not sure anyone asked me.

Ditto. There was no reason to ask before the referendum campaign, but I knew I had an EU passport, an EHIC, was represented by MEPs and had a bunch of funding from the EU FP7 program.

[GeenDienst]

Count me in also.

[Bird on a Fire]

Fair enough. I stand corrected-ish! (And it's certainly true that I never asked anyone either)

Identity is a weird thing, I think. Hard to pin down. Before the ref I was doing an Erasmus masters with an EU scholarship, living in France and Portugal and using my EHIC on the reg. But while nobody asked me either, I'm not sure I'd have said I felt in some way 'European' exactly. The EU's a fantastic thing, but part of that for me is because it supersedes identities rather than being one, iyswim. Not that I really thought about it.

Anyways watevs, that's a load of pointless waffle. The more EU rights we can opt into the better. It would be great to see the EU taking the high road here and just offering it unilaterally.

And it would be hilarious stepping off a flight to the continent and watching the British passengers split into Leave and Remain(+ hypocrites) queues at the border

[Little waster]

I'm not having a go, but I don't recall ever hearing anybody ever say that they "identify as European" before the referendum.

Concentric identity innit.

I’m a Geordie, I’m northern, I’m English, I’m British, I’m European.

Now some c.nts want to shrink my horizons cos they don’t like brown people and so my living standards and my children’s future have to take the hit so they can have a different coloured passport.


I’m slightly narked.

[Gfamily]

I may primarily think of myself as being a Welshman in <My county> of England, but when it comes to the Ryder Cup, I'm a European.

Me, I was born at a time when I didn't need to worry about whether I would need 'permission' to work in England or Scotland.

Our children; they were born at a time when they didn't [... ditto ...] in most European countries. The potential removal of that right is a f.cking disgrace.

[headshot]

Oh, I always referred to myself as European first, British second, English third.

Mainly because I've never felt I have anything in common with my country people.

[Cardinal Fang]

I'm not having a go, but I don't recall ever hearing anybody ever say that they "identify as European" before the referendum.

Before 2016, EU membership was considered an important issue by only 5% of the population. So the question of whether a person is simultaneous European and British never came up. And until the Brextremists imposed on the country that the idea of leaving the EU meant leaving the Single Market, Customs Union and every single other European program and organisation (something that was never even hinted at as being an option by the Leave campaign), the idea that one had to split the "British" and "European" identity as if they were mutually exclusive also never came up

CF

[Little waster]

I'm not having a go, but I don't recall ever hearing anybody ever say that they "identify as European" before the referendum.

Before 2016, EU membership was considered an important issue by only 5% of the population. So the question of whether a person is simultaneous European and British never came up. And until the Brextremists imposed on the country that the idea of leaving the EU meant leaving the Single Market, Customs Union and every single other European program and organisation (something that was never even hinted at as being an option by the Leave campaign), the idea that one had to split the "British" and "European" identity as if they were mutually exclusive also never came up

CF

Even just a year ago one of the Brexiteers was still promising we’d retain FOM to the EU even after leaving it.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... leaving-eu

Can’t recall what happened to him, I suppose he lost out in the internal power struggle among the Brexiteers so his vision never got a chance to be implemented. Shame

[Pucksoppet]

I'm proud to identify as a European, and I have benefited from FOM and many other European programmes. The fact that Brexit has forcibly reduced the horizons of many young people in the UK is a crying shame, and I don't think that 'global Britain' is an adequate alternative.

There is much to criticise about the EU, but seeking to modify the rules and behaviours of a club works much better from the inside as a paying member than from the outside as a non-paying critic, however, the UK's politicians have made their bed...