Trump Impeachment

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Herainestold
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Re: Trump Impeachment

Post by Herainestold » Sun Jan 26, 2020 3:15 am

Gfamily wrote:
Sun Jan 26, 2020 12:34 am
Herainestold wrote:
Sun Jan 26, 2020 12:12 am
JQH wrote:
Sat Jan 25, 2020 11:03 pm


Legal challenges in the Supreme Court. Armed insurrection. They has guns.
Its the Trump supporters what has the guns. Not the other guys.
They want the Right to bear arms
Its the arms bearing Right who will keep Trump in power.

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Re: Trump Impeachment

Post by bmforre » Mon Jan 27, 2020 3:34 pm

Fresh from NYTimes:
John Roberts Can Call Witnesses to Trump’s Trial. Will He?
Democratic House managers should ask the chief justice to issue subpoenas for John Bolton and others.
Paper states:
An overwhelming number of Americans, including a majority of Republicans, believe the Senate should hear from relevant witnesses and obtain documents during President Trump’s impeachment trial. Striking new revelations about the president’s role in the Ukraine affair, as reported from an unpublished manuscript by John Bolton, underscore the need for his testimony and that of others.

Yet Republican members of the Senate have signaled that they intend to uphold Mr. Trump’s unprecedented decision to block all of this material.

But it turns out they don’t get to make that choice — Chief Justice John Roberts does. This isn’t a matter of Democrats needing four “moderate” Republicans to vote for subpoenas and witnesses, as the Trump lawyers have been claiming. Rather, the impeachment rules, like all trial systems, put a large thumb on the scale of issuing subpoenas and place that power within the authority of the judge, in this case the chief justice.

Most critically, it would take a two-thirds vote — not a majority — of the Senate to overrule that. This week, Democrats can and should ask the chief justice to issue subpoenas on his authority so that key witnesses of relevance like John Bolton and Mick Mulvaney appear in the Senate, and the Senate should subpoena all relevant documents as well.
Fascinating. More at link.

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Re: Trump Impeachment

Post by bmforre » Mon Jan 27, 2020 3:52 pm

Update this afternoon European time, night/early morning US Time:
https://www.nytimes.com/live/2020/impea ... live-01-27
The White House legal team will resume opening arguments at President Trump’s impeachment trial Monday afternoon in dramatically changed circumstances. John R. Bolton, the former national security adviser, revealed that Mr. Trump said he wanted to continue freezing security aid to Ukraine until he got help with investigations into Democrats, and now calls are intensifying for witnesses to appear in the trial.

Just after midnight, President Trump denied Mr. Bolton’s account, accusing his former adviser of trying to sell books.
This hits bothe Trump and his faithful defenders:
Pressure on Republican senators to call witnesses in President Trump’s impeachment trial is not only building in Washington. It is building at home.

On Monday, Majority Forward, an arm of a political action committee affiliated with Senate Democrats, announced it will be airing two new 30-second digital advertisements — one called “Oath,” and the other called “Rigged” — aimed at five Republican senators facing tough re-election battles: Martha McSally of Arizona; Cory Gardner of Colorado; Susan Collins of Maine; Joni Ernst of Iowa and Thom Tillis of North Carolina.

Republicans have so far been mostly silent in the wake of a damaging New York Times report about John Bolton, Mr. Trump’s former national security adviser, who is high on Democrats’ lists of potential witnesses and is writing a memoir scheduled for release in March...

Mr. Bolton’s account that Mr. Trump told him he did not want to release $391 million in military aid to Ukraine until that country’s leaders investigated Democrats directly contradicts Mr. Trump’s assertion that there was no “quid pro quo” demand for investigations in exchange for the funding.

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Re: Trump Impeachment

Post by lpm » Mon Jan 27, 2020 3:59 pm

From a UK/Europe perspective, John Roberts is an extreme right wing judge, heading into fascist territory. He doesn't think voting should be made easy for everyone, for example, plus the usual American desire to control women's bodies.

The fact that he's seen in the US as only vaguely right wing, a bit of a swing vote on the court, shows how f.cked the US is.

There's no chance he'll be the saviour of democracy in this trial. He's not a Trump cultist, but he is a Republican enabler and a coward. He's going to stay invisible - do anything else and the supreme court will come under attack from the cultists.
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Re: Trump Impeachment

Post by Pucksoppet » Mon Jan 27, 2020 5:09 pm

lpm wrote:
Mon Jan 27, 2020 3:59 pm
From a UK/Europe perspective, John Roberts is an extreme right wing judge, heading into fascist territory. He doesn't think voting should be made easy for everyone, for example, plus the usual American desire to control women's bodies.

The fact that he's seen in the US as only vaguely right wing, a bit of a swing vote on the court, shows how f.cked the US is.

There's no chance he'll be the saviour of democracy in this trial. He's not a Trump cultist, but he is a Republican enabler and a coward. He's going to stay invisible - do anything else and the supreme court will come under attack from the cultists.
I take your point. One thing that might give him pause is that he won't want to set a precedent that Democrats could use in a future administration to frustrate the Republicans. The issues at stake are more important than a single Trump presidency, and some Republicans might actually prefer Mike Pence as president.

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Re: Trump Impeachment

Post by bmforre » Mon Jan 27, 2020 8:54 pm

lpm wrote:
Mon Jan 27, 2020 3:59 pm
From a UK/Europe perspective, John Roberts is an extreme right wing judge, heading into fascist territory. He doesn't think voting should be made easy for everyone, for example, plus the usual American desire to control women's bodies.

The fact that he's seen in the US as only vaguely right wing, a bit of a swing vote on the court, shows how f.cked the US is.

There's no chance he'll be the saviour of democracy in this trial. He's not a Trump cultist, but he is a Republican enabler and a coward. He's going to stay invisible - do anything else and the supreme court will come under attack from the cultists.
The first attempt to have the Supreme Court block Obamacare as unconstitutional was rejected by just one vote with Roberts on the Save the Law side. I definitely don't see that as cowardly behavior, on the contrary.

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Re: Trump Impeachment

Post by bmforre » Mon Jan 27, 2020 9:20 pm

Minutes ago from NYTimes:
Republican senators know President Trump tried to cut a corrupt deal with the president of Ukraine. They just don’t want to hear it said out loud.
On Monday morning
Utah’s Mitt Romney said, “I think it’s increasingly likely that other Republicans will join those of us who think we should hear from John Bolton.”

It’s refreshing to hear those words. And yet the fact that such a statement is noteworthy at all tells you how far from responsible governance Senate Republicans have strayed. They hold 53 seats in the Senate, and yet the nation is waiting on just four — four!— to do the right thing and agree to call Mr. Bolton, the former national security adviser, and other key witnesses to testify in Mr. Trump’s impeachment trial.

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Re: Trump Impeachment

Post by lpm » Tue Jan 28, 2020 1:02 pm

It's nice to see Fox "news" commentators confused about what to say. There's no clear message coming from on high about whether to attack Bolton as a democrat or ignore him as saying nothing new.

Still stuck on Romney + Collins, with nobody clearly stepping up to be the 3rd or 4th. Game theory suggests either zero or most is the answer - a dozen or so could suddenly switch if the herd panics. Romney is an amazing coward - zero leadership - so he keeps suggesting heads above the parapet but making it clear he won't do it first.
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Re: Trump Impeachment

Post by lpm » Tue Jan 28, 2020 3:34 pm

- in March a book is being published, for the public to buy and read, in the usual way books work
- publishers and editors have already read it
- Senators therefore argue they must only read the book in a classified setting

What's so good about the silliness of this whole thing is that silly people don't realise how silly they are being. I like it.
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Re: Trump Impeachment

Post by lpm » Tue Jan 28, 2020 3:53 pm

lpm wrote:
Tue Jan 28, 2020 1:02 pm
It's nice to see Fox "news" commentators confused about what to say. There's no clear message coming from on high about whether to attack Bolton as a democrat or ignore him as saying nothing new.
Somebody is not happy at Fox! There have been the occasional rifts before but nothing that's lasted - but I live in hope.
racistDonaldTrump wrote:So, what the hell has happened to @FoxNews. Only I know! Chris Wallace and others should be on Fake News CNN or MSDNC. How’s Shep Smith doing? Watch, this will be the beginning of the end for Fox, just like the other two which are dying in the ratings.
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Re: Trump Impeachment

Post by FlammableFlower » Wed Jan 29, 2020 12:11 pm

Seems McConnell has declared he doesn't have enough votes to block witnesses.

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Re: Trump Impeachment

Post by bolo » Wed Jan 29, 2020 1:06 pm

FlammableFlower wrote:
Wed Jan 29, 2020 12:11 pm
Seems McConnell has declared he doesn't have enough votes to block witnesses.
You are missing the very important word "currently". It could still go either way.

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Re: Trump Impeachment

Post by FlammableFlower » Wed Jan 29, 2020 1:22 pm

bolo wrote:
Wed Jan 29, 2020 1:06 pm
FlammableFlower wrote:
Wed Jan 29, 2020 12:11 pm
Seems McConnell has declared he doesn't have enough votes to block witnesses.
You are missing the very important word "currently". It could still go either way.
Pants

I'm guessing that's his pitch to get more to fall in line.

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Re: Trump Impeachment

Post by dyqik » Wed Jan 29, 2020 1:32 pm

FlammableFlower wrote:
Wed Jan 29, 2020 1:22 pm
bolo wrote:
Wed Jan 29, 2020 1:06 pm
FlammableFlower wrote:
Wed Jan 29, 2020 12:11 pm
Seems McConnell has declared he doesn't have enough votes to block witnesses.
You are missing the very important word "currently". It could still go either way.
Pants

I'm guessing that's his pitch to get more to fall in line.
Or expectation management for the White House.

Note that the filing deadline for the Kentucky primaries has passed, so McConnell can't be primaried.

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Re: Trump Impeachment

Post by plodder » Fri Jan 31, 2020 3:55 pm

So I’ve been a bit busy and was surprised to read that Trump is about to be acquitted. Any able to explain?

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Re: Trump Impeachment

Post by dyqik » Fri Jan 31, 2020 4:12 pm

plodder wrote:
Fri Jan 31, 2020 3:55 pm
So I’ve been a bit busy and was surprised to read that Trump is about to be acquitted. Any able to explain?
Republicans don't believe in Republics any more, if doing so owns the libs.

Republican Senators (e.g. Lamar) are saying that it's proven that Trump illegally withheld Congressionally appropriated aid from Ukraine in exchange for political dirt on an election opponent to help him personally in the 2020 election, that they don't need to hear from any witnesses to establish that, and that they don't care that he did it.

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Re: Trump Impeachment

Post by Bird on a Fire » Fri Jan 31, 2020 4:16 pm

Checks and balances, they said.

What a clusterf.ck.
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Re: Trump Impeachment

Post by lpm » Fri Jan 31, 2020 5:34 pm

It's been a fun show. I've tried to watch parts every night - it's a mixture of boring stuff, amazing stuff and endless repetition.

Because no defense was mounted, it was a bit like watching football with only one side on the field. One-sided, and also boringly repetitive. The Democrats score a goal, trot back to the middle, score another goal. While the Republicans just ignore it and claim those goals don't exist but boast about the fantasy ones they pretend they scored.

It's a remarkable moment in history. The greatest democratic superpower the world has seen - in desperate trouble, the rule of law tossed aside, deliberately heading to a rigged election.

And it could have been even worse - if Trump had given the masses the huge tax cut, plus given them amazing healthcare - he'd be incredibly popular right now with a great economy behind him.

Such a weird coincidence, the USA self-destructing on the night the UK wrecks itself. The sort of thing scriptwriters do for the blockbuster final episode in a season, not something that should happen in real life.
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Re: Trump Impeachment

Post by lpm » Fri Jan 31, 2020 7:05 pm

I'll miss him after he's died in prison

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Re: Trump Impeachment

Post by dyqik » Fri Jan 31, 2020 10:14 pm

https://twitter.com/rgoodlaw/status/122 ... 90881?s=19
CNN discussion is explaining what’s going on in the Senate:

Due to a mistake in drafting the rules, Senator Schumer now has ability to submit amendments—one implication is it can force GOP to make uncomfortable votes. Gives Schumer leverage he otherwise hasn’t had in the process

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Re: Trump Impeachment

Post by Herainestold » Fri Jan 31, 2020 11:19 pm

lpm wrote:
Fri Jan 31, 2020 5:34 pm
It's been a fun show. I've tried to watch parts every night - it's a mixture of boring stuff, amazing stuff and endless repetition.

Because no defense was mounted, it was a bit like watching football with only one side on the field. One-sided, and also boringly repetitive. The Democrats score a goal, trot back to the middle, score another goal. While the Republicans just ignore it and claim those goals don't exist but boast about the fantasy ones they pretend they scored.

It's a remarkable moment in history. The greatest democratic superpower the world has seen - in desperate trouble, the rule of law tossed aside, deliberately heading to a rigged election.

And it could have been even worse - if Trump had given the masses the huge tax cut, plus given them amazing healthcare - he'd be incredibly popular right now with a great economy behind him.

Such a weird coincidence, the USA self-destructing on the night the UK wrecks itself. The sort of thing scriptwriters do for the blockbuster final episode in a season, not something that should happen in real life.
For the America boosters who promote it as the best and original democracy, what say you?

In any case democracy is over -rated, the major problems facing the earth are not amenable to democracy. Climate change and the Coronovirus are collective action problems with no neat democtratic solutions.

The non-democracy that America has evolved into is not a solution for anything except for the President and his cronies to accumulate even more wealth.At this point the most that the rest of this world can hope for is that the decline of America is swift and relatively smooth and that its successor
is better suited to acting on global level concerns.

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Re: Trump Impeachment

Post by plodder » Fri Jan 31, 2020 11:22 pm

Sorry, how does the acceptance of guilt lead to acquittal?

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Re: Trump Impeachment

Post by lpm » Sat Feb 01, 2020 12:13 am

From twitter:

January 31, 2020: Britain withdraws from Europe and America withdraws from the Constitution.
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Re: Trump Impeachment

Post by Martin_B » Sat Feb 01, 2020 3:44 am

Herainestold wrote:
Fri Jan 31, 2020 11:19 pm
lpm wrote:
Fri Jan 31, 2020 5:34 pm
It's been a fun show. I've tried to watch parts every night - it's a mixture of boring stuff, amazing stuff and endless repetition.

Because no defense was mounted, it was a bit like watching football with only one side on the field. One-sided, and also boringly repetitive. The Democrats score a goal, trot back to the middle, score another goal. While the Republicans just ignore it and claim those goals don't exist but boast about the fantasy ones they pretend they scored.

It's a remarkable moment in history. The greatest democratic superpower the world has seen - in desperate trouble, the rule of law tossed aside, deliberately heading to a rigged election.

And it could have been even worse - if Trump had given the masses the huge tax cut, plus given them amazing healthcare - he'd be incredibly popular right now with a great economy behind him.

Such a weird coincidence, the USA self-destructing on the night the UK wrecks itself. The sort of thing scriptwriters do for the blockbuster final episode in a season, not something that should happen in real life.
For the America boosters who promote it as the best and original democracy, what say you?

In any case democracy is over -rated, the major problems facing the earth are not amenable to democracy. Climate change and the Coronovirus are collective action problems with no neat democtratic solutions.

The non-democracy that America has evolved into is not a solution for anything except for the President and his cronies to accumulate even more wealth.At this point the most that the rest of this world can hope for is that the decline of America is swift and relatively smooth and that its successor
is better suited to acting on global level concerns.
Ah yes, democracy; the worst form of government, except for all of the others.

What Churchill actually said was: "Many forms of Gov­ern­ment have been tried, and will be tried in this world of sin and woe. No one pre­tends that democ­ra­cy is per­fect or all-wise. Indeed it has been said that democra­cy is the worst form of Gov­ern­ment except for all those oth­er forms that have been tried from time to time."
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Re: Trump Impeachment

Post by plodder » Thu Feb 06, 2020 7:29 pm

It’s all gone a bit quiet in here, given the weirdness of the decision.

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