As you well know, I am a graduate of the school of life and the university of Google.plodder wrote: ↑Fri Jan 03, 2020 12:49 pmAnecdote alert - but I know some people who were caned off their boxes during their A levels, who went to sh.t schools, and who frankly didn't have a clue what was in the full A-level physics syllabus at the time. This was reflected in their grades.
Did you get straight A's in your A-levels, sheldrake? That would give you the perspective to assess your <cough>, erm, choice of a physics degree at Birmingham.
has education funding increased?
Re: has education funding increased?
Re: has education funding increased?
But I also know people who got 4 As at A-level before GCSEs were introduced who then went to places like Oxford and Imperial who've looked at these new syllabi with me and had the same view
Re: has education funding increased?
No I wasn't aware of this. Links?sheldrake wrote: ↑Fri Jan 03, 2020 10:40 amHave you noticed that in UK STEM degrees the material that used to be taught in a 3 year degree is now taught over a 4 year master's degree, with the first year significantly repeating material that used to be learned during A-levels ? I've sat with people who did physics degrees in the 80s looking at modern syllabi and they confirm that their 3rd year subjects are now often being taught in year 4.
And remember that if you botch the exit, the carnival of reaction may be coming to a town near you.
Fintan O'Toole
Fintan O'Toole
Re: has education funding increased?
It's a common viewpoint, particularly among those who are inclined to also believe that spelling has got worse and standards have slipped because people can no longer name a long list of kings and queens.
But you'll have to do much analysis, including of the full breadth of material taught, and including non-syllabus/examined skills taught, to show this. That probably means making sure you look at the actual course materials as well as the syllabuses.
Re: has education funding increased?
Give me an example of something taught at first year in the UK now outside of 'soft skills' that wasnt taught in the 1970s
Re: has education funding increased?
Have a read through the year 1 syllabus here https://le.ac.uk/courses/physics-bsc/2020JQH wrote: ↑Fri Jan 03, 2020 4:25 pmNo I wasn't aware of this. Links?sheldrake wrote: ↑Fri Jan 03, 2020 10:40 amHave you noticed that in UK STEM degrees the material that used to be taught in a 3 year degree is now taught over a 4 year master's degree, with the first year significantly repeating material that used to be learned during A-levels ? I've sat with people who did physics degrees in the 80s looking at modern syllabi and they confirm that their 3rd year subjects are now often being taught in year 4.
Note that General Relativity isn't even an option until the 4th year of this integrated Masters https://le.ac.uk/courses/physics-mphys/2020#
Re: has education funding increased?
As I recall, my Astronomy BSc (77-80) didn't cover GR as a separate option at all. There were Cosmology options that covered GR as a semi quantitative topic, but no more than that.sheldrake wrote: ↑Fri Jan 03, 2020 5:50 pmHave a read through the year 1 syllabus here https://le.ac.uk/courses/physics-bsc/2020JQH wrote: ↑Fri Jan 03, 2020 4:25 pmNo I wasn't aware of this. Links?sheldrake wrote: ↑Fri Jan 03, 2020 10:40 amHave you noticed that in UK STEM degrees the material that used to be taught in a 3 year degree is now taught over a 4 year master's degree, with the first year significantly repeating material that used to be learned during A-levels ? I've sat with people who did physics degrees in the 80s looking at modern syllabi and they confirm that their 3rd year subjects are now often being taught in year 4.
Note that General Relativity isn't even an option until the 4th year of this integrated Masters https://le.ac.uk/courses/physics-mphys/2020#
My avatar was a scientific result that was later found to be 'mistaken' - I rarely claim to be 100% correct
ETA 5/8/20: I've been advised that the result was correct, it was the initial interpretation that needed to be withdrawn
Meta? I'd say so!
ETA 5/8/20: I've been advised that the result was correct, it was the initial interpretation that needed to be withdrawn
Meta? I'd say so!
Re: has education funding increased?
And those options were 3rd year rather than part of a master's degree/4th year of study?Gfamily wrote: ↑Fri Jan 03, 2020 6:13 pmAs I recall, my Astronomy BSc (77-79) didn't cover GR as a separate option at all. There were Cosmology options that covered GR as a semi quantitative topic, but no more than that.sheldrake wrote: ↑Fri Jan 03, 2020 5:50 pmHave a read through the year 1 syllabus here https://le.ac.uk/courses/physics-bsc/2020
Note that General Relativity isn't even an option until the 4th year of this integrated Masters https://le.ac.uk/courses/physics-mphys/2020#
Re: has education funding increased?
GR was a third or fourth year course when I did physics in the 90s.sheldrake wrote: ↑Fri Jan 03, 2020 5:50 pmHave a read through the year 1 syllabus here https://le.ac.uk/courses/physics-bsc/2020JQH wrote: ↑Fri Jan 03, 2020 4:25 pmNo I wasn't aware of this. Links?sheldrake wrote: ↑Fri Jan 03, 2020 10:40 amHave you noticed that in UK STEM degrees the material that used to be taught in a 3 year degree is now taught over a 4 year master's degree, with the first year significantly repeating material that used to be learned during A-levels ? I've sat with people who did physics degrees in the 80s looking at modern syllabi and they confirm that their 3rd year subjects are now often being taught in year 4.
Note that General Relativity isn't even an option until the 4th year of this integrated Masters https://le.ac.uk/courses/physics-mphys/2020#
You don't have the maths to do it properly until then.
Re: has education funding increased?
Of an Astronomy degree, not a general physics degree.sheldrake wrote: ↑Fri Jan 03, 2020 6:14 pmAnd those options were 3rd year rather than part of a master's degree/4th year of study?Gfamily wrote: ↑Fri Jan 03, 2020 6:13 pmAs I recall, my Astronomy BSc (77-79) didn't cover GR as a separate option at all. There were Cosmology options that covered GR as a semi quantitative topic, but no more than that.sheldrake wrote: ↑Fri Jan 03, 2020 5:50 pm
Have a read through the year 1 syllabus here https://le.ac.uk/courses/physics-bsc/2020
Note that General Relativity isn't even an option until the 4th year of this integrated Masters https://le.ac.uk/courses/physics-mphys/2020#
Re: has education funding increased?
It was a 3rd year course on my mates' BSc physics degree at Sussex in the 80s. He reported most of the class finding the maths hrd.
Re: has education funding increased?
But it is covered in both courses in the second year, as part of the Relativity, Quantum Physics and Particles module.sheldrake wrote: ↑Fri Jan 03, 2020 5:50 pmHave a read through the year 1 syllabus here https://le.ac.uk/courses/physics-bsc/2020JQH wrote: ↑Fri Jan 03, 2020 4:25 pmNo I wasn't aware of this. Links?sheldrake wrote: ↑Fri Jan 03, 2020 10:40 amHave you noticed that in UK STEM degrees the material that used to be taught in a 3 year degree is now taught over a 4 year master's degree, with the first year significantly repeating material that used to be learned during A-levels ? I've sat with people who did physics degrees in the 80s looking at modern syllabi and they confirm that their 3rd year subjects are now often being taught in year 4.
Note that General Relativity isn't even an option until the 4th year of this integrated Masters https://le.ac.uk/courses/physics-mphys/2020#
The core of that BSc syllabus is pretty similar to what I did ~20 years ago, albeit structured differently.
Re: has education funding increased?
the 2nd year doesn't do quantitative GR. It only does quantitative SR.monkey wrote: ↑Fri Jan 03, 2020 6:28 pmBut it is covered in both courses in the second year, as part of the Relativity, Quantum Physics and Particles module.sheldrake wrote: ↑Fri Jan 03, 2020 5:50 pmHave a read through the year 1 syllabus here https://le.ac.uk/courses/physics-bsc/2020
Note that General Relativity isn't even an option until the 4th year of this integrated Masters https://le.ac.uk/courses/physics-mphys/2020#
The core of that BSc syllabus is pretty similar to what I did ~20 years ago, albeit structured differently.
Re: has education funding increased?
GR (with tensors) was an option in the third year for A level entry students in my daughter's Edinburgh degree course in 2012 - it would have been the 4th year for Scottish students entering with Highers.sheldrake wrote: ↑Fri Jan 03, 2020 6:14 pmAnd those options were 3rd year rather than part of a master's degree/4th year of study?Gfamily wrote: ↑Fri Jan 03, 2020 6:13 pmAs I recall, my Astronomy BSc (77-79) didn't cover GR as a separate option at all. There were Cosmology options that covered GR as a semi quantitative topic, but no more than that.sheldrake wrote: ↑Fri Jan 03, 2020 5:50 pm
Have a read through the year 1 syllabus here https://le.ac.uk/courses/physics-bsc/2020
Note that General Relativity isn't even an option until the 4th year of this integrated Masters https://le.ac.uk/courses/physics-mphys/2020#
My avatar was a scientific result that was later found to be 'mistaken' - I rarely claim to be 100% correct
ETA 5/8/20: I've been advised that the result was correct, it was the initial interpretation that needed to be withdrawn
Meta? I'd say so!
ETA 5/8/20: I've been advised that the result was correct, it was the initial interpretation that needed to be withdrawn
Meta? I'd say so!
Re: has education funding increased?
Do you have a syllabus from the 70s /80s that does it in the second year?sheldrake wrote: ↑Fri Jan 03, 2020 6:33 pmthe 2nd year doesn't do quantitative GR. It only does quantitative SR.monkey wrote: ↑Fri Jan 03, 2020 6:28 pmBut it is covered in both courses in the second year, as part of the Relativity, Quantum Physics and Particles module.sheldrake wrote: ↑Fri Jan 03, 2020 5:50 pm
Have a read through the year 1 syllabus here https://le.ac.uk/courses/physics-bsc/2020
Note that General Relativity isn't even an option until the 4th year of this integrated Masters https://le.ac.uk/courses/physics-mphys/2020#
The core of that BSc syllabus is pretty similar to what I did ~20 years ago, albeit structured differently.
My avatar was a scientific result that was later found to be 'mistaken' - I rarely claim to be 100% correct
ETA 5/8/20: I've been advised that the result was correct, it was the initial interpretation that needed to be withdrawn
Meta? I'd say so!
ETA 5/8/20: I've been advised that the result was correct, it was the initial interpretation that needed to be withdrawn
Meta? I'd say so!
Re: has education funding increased?
It's listed only under year 4 now http://www.drps.ed.ac.uk/19-20/dpt/utphysb.htmGfamily wrote: ↑Fri Jan 03, 2020 6:37 pmIt was an option in the third year option for A level entry students in my daughter's Edinburgh degree course in 2012 - it would have been the 4th year for Scottish students entering with Highers.
Re: has education funding increased?
They used to do it in the 3rd year of BSc as an option in the 80s, now it's only 4th.
Re: has education funding increased?
That's almost certainly more to do with programming than anything else. GR courses don't depend on others so much, just maths and SR, which is a first year course. The maths is pretty separate to the rest of the maths for physics as well.
Re: has education funding increased?
Quant SR is not a first year course in a lot of universities now. It is still at Oxford and a few other places in a similar league.
Re: has education funding increased?
When GR appears on a syllabus is not going to tell you anything. You can learn a little bit as a special topic as a first year undergrad. You can learn it in a more sophisticated way as an advanced undergrad. You can learn it in a much more sophisticated way as a grad student. These are not equivalent and need not be mutually exclusive.
Re: has education funding increased?
You can tell a fair amount by the module description. TBH I think you're working quite hard to avoid the conclusion that people generally arrive at university a bit less well-prepared than they used to given the other information we have about A-level grades, the opinion of admissions tutors etc..bolo wrote: ↑Fri Jan 03, 2020 7:03 pmWhen GR appears on a syllabus is not going to tell you anything. You can learn a little bit as a special topic as a first year undergrad. You can learn it in a more sophisticated way as an advanced undergrad. You can learn it in a much more sophisticated way as a grad student. These are not equivalent and need not be mutually exclusive.
Re: has education funding increased?
Whereas you've done no work at all to support this claim. Just made comments based on a superficial understanding of course syllabuses.sheldrake wrote: ↑Fri Jan 03, 2020 7:10 pmYou can tell a fair amount by the module description. TBH I think you're working quite hard to avoid the conclusion that people generally arrive at university a bit less well-prepared than they used to given the other information we have about A-level grades, the opinion of admissions tutors etc..bolo wrote: ↑Fri Jan 03, 2020 7:03 pmWhen GR appears on a syllabus is not going to tell you anything. You can learn a little bit as a special topic as a first year undergrad. You can learn it in a more sophisticated way as an advanced undergrad. You can learn it in a much more sophisticated way as a grad student. These are not equivalent and need not be mutually exclusive.
Re: has education funding increased?
I've actually posted more independent sources for my claims about educational standards than anybody else so far. Research on A-level grade inflation, comments from admissions tutors about the need to introduce new exams, comments from lecturers about students arriving less prepared etc.. I'm relying on unverifiable personal experience less than most people up until now.dyqik wrote: ↑Fri Jan 03, 2020 7:26 pmWhereas you've done no work at all to support this claim. Just made comments based on a superficial understanding of course syllabuses.sheldrake wrote: ↑Fri Jan 03, 2020 7:10 pmYou can tell a fair amount by the module description. TBH I think you're working quite hard to avoid the conclusion that people generally arrive at university a bit less well-prepared than they used to given the other information we have about A-level grades, the opinion of admissions tutors etc..bolo wrote: ↑Fri Jan 03, 2020 7:03 pmWhen GR appears on a syllabus is not going to tell you anything. You can learn a little bit as a special topic as a first year undergrad. You can learn it in a more sophisticated way as an advanced undergrad. You can learn it in a much more sophisticated way as a grad student. These are not equivalent and need not be mutually exclusive.
Re: has education funding increased?
And you haven't responded to any of the criticisms of these anecdotes.sheldrake wrote: ↑Fri Jan 03, 2020 7:33 pmI've actually posted more independent sources for my claims about educational standards than anybody else so far.dyqik wrote: ↑Fri Jan 03, 2020 7:26 pmWhereas you've done no work at all to support this claim. Just made comments based on a superficial understanding of course syllabuses.sheldrake wrote: ↑Fri Jan 03, 2020 7:10 pm
You can tell a fair amount by the module description. TBH I think you're working quite hard to avoid the conclusion that people generally arrive at university a bit less well-prepared than they used to given the other information we have about A-level grades, the opinion of admissions tutors etc..