Anti-trans sentiment

[Grumble]

I’m a bit baffled by the amount of anti-trans sentiment from feminists. I don’t want this to be a slanging match, can someone explain it to me with the maximum amount of sympathy for both sides?

[Cardinal Fang]

Not sure I can manage sympathy.

Basically it boils down to a minority of so-called feminists who, after insisting that women cannot just be defined by their anatomy when it comes to objectification (rightly), then insist that women should only be defined by their anatomy (i.e. ownership of a vagina)

[mediocrity511]

Some feminists have a problem with the concept of gender identity. They feel that throughout history women have been oppressed and abused because of their biological sex, not because of their identity. They have a problem with the concept that being a woman is something that you feel as opposed to something that you are. Some feminists feel that gender identity as a concept reinforces stereotypical views on what behaviours and interests are appropriate for men and for women.

So when people have an issue with the whole concept of gender identity, then they tend to not be sympathetic to many forms of transgender rights activism. They tend to argue for sex based protections for women and not gender identity based protections.

[Martin Y]

The arguments I've seen elsewhere involve women claiming examples of males who declare themselves to be women to demand access to women-only spaces while exhibiting no trace of femininity or making no effort not to look and act like men, or who seem to get their kicks from claiming to be women and calling out lesbians who won't have sex with them.

I have absolutely no information about the veracity of such claims but the battle lines appear to be drawn such that you either accept everyone's self identity or you are an opponent of trans rights.

There appears to be no leeway for allowing that some men really are just creepy entitled bullying pricks and that may even include a few who declare they're women.

[Grumble]

I have no doubt that some trans people are dickheads, they’re people after all.

[Grumble]

Some feminists have a problem with the concept of gender identity. They feel that throughout history women have been oppressed and abused because of their biological sex, not because of their identity. They have a problem with the concept that being a woman is something that you feel as opposed to something that you are. Some feminists feel that gender identity as a concept reinforces stereotypical views on what behaviours and interests are appropriate for men and for women.

So when people have an issue with the whole concept of gender identity, then they tend to not be sympathetic to many forms of transgender rights activism. They tend to argue for sex based protections for women and not gender identity based protections.

Thanks. I’ve seen bad feeling directed against trans men as well, I guess for consistency. But I’d be interested to know what they think the problem is there.

[Fishnut]

Some feminists have a problem with the concept of gender identity. They feel that throughout history women have been oppressed and abused because of their biological sex, not because of their identity. They have a problem with the concept that being a woman is something that you feel as opposed to something that you are. Some feminists feel that gender identity as a concept reinforces stereotypical views on what behaviours and interests are appropriate for men and for women.

So when people have an issue with the whole concept of gender identity, then they tend to not be sympathetic to many forms of transgender rights activism. They tend to argue for sex based protections for women and not gender identity based protections.

Thanks. I’ve seen bad feeling directed against trans men as well, I guess for consistency. But I’d be interested to know what they think the problem is there.

I think it's something about how they think it's just women who have gone too far in being tomboys, or something. The focus is very much on trans women because all men are predators who will do anything to get access to vulnerable women and as such we need protecting from the dreaded penises. There's also claims that trans women still have male privilege (because having to hide who you are is such a privileged position to be in ).

[Boustrophedon]

This is not going to end well.

[Grumble]

This is not going to end well.

I don’t want it to go that way. I want a feminist who’s not sympathetic to trans people to tell me why they feel that way. FrozenWarnings or Le Canard Noir being two on twitter whose names may be familiar to people.

[Boustrophedon]

This is not going to end well.

I don’t want it to go that way. I want a feminist who’s not sympathetic to trans people to tell me why they feel that way. FrozenWarnings or Le Canard Noir being two on twitter whose names may be familiar to people.

I have learnt through bitter experience that I can seriously upset people in the old place debating sexual politics, whilst trying very hard not to. This is because I am a dickhead with the emotional intelligence of a stone and a similar low ability to express nuance. I do not want to see another shirtgate.

My Daughter is trans so I feel this debate personally.

Some time ago there was a video posted of a feminist meeting at speakers corner being disrupted by trans activists. Google that phrase, you'll find it. I did not understand WTF was happening so I started researching. I found a great divide between the "Terfs" and the trans community. I use the term Terf in a purely descriptive way, to describe their position, not in any pejorative way.

If you want an insight go to the late Magdalen Berns Youtube channel and listen to her position and follow the links on her videos to those she is replying to. https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCvTTak ... kMnsH8r0qQ

Positions are entrenched and a long way from a meeting of minds.

[nekomatic]

The feminist perspective I’m aware of is not ‘not sympathetic to trans people’ but is critical of a specific strand of trans activism that for example says anyone who declares themselves female is immediately entitled to full access to female-only spaces such as women’s refuges, women’s toilets, or women’s sports. I can’t comment on the actual scale of this situation but I feel reasonably convinced that it does exist and that therefore the perspective is valid.

[Grumble]

The feminist perspective I’m aware of is not ‘not sympathetic to trans people’ but is critical of a specific strand of trans activism that for example says anyone who declares themselves female is immediately entitled to full access to female-only spaces such as women’s refuges, women’s toilets, or women’s sports. I can’t comment on the actual scale of this situation but I feel reasonably convinced that it does exist and that therefore the perspective is valid.

Thank you, that’s some of the nuance that you simply don’t get on Twitter, which is why I’m scared of asking the question on there.

[mediocrity511]

The feminist perspective I’m aware of is not ‘not sympathetic to trans people’ but is critical of a specific strand of trans activism that for example says anyone who declares themselves female is immediately entitled to full access to female-only spaces such as women’s refuges, women’s toilets, or women’s sports. I can’t comment on the actual scale of this situation but I feel reasonably convinced that it does exist and that therefore the perspective is valid.

To add to this there's also concerns where some strands of trans activism consider it transphobic for a lesbian not to want to date someone with a penis. And other specific concerns about how there's a large rise in the numbers of young autistic women experiencing gender dysphoria and seeking transition.

[Matatouille]

And other specific concerns about how there's a large rise in the numbers of young autistic women experiencing gender dysphoria and seeking transition.

Do we have much information on whether this is a new thing, or that we weren't looking/listening for it so much before?

[Grumble]

To add to this there's also concerns where some strands of trans activism consider it transphobic for a lesbian not to want to date someone with a penis. And other specific concerns about how there's a large rise in the numbers of young autistic women experiencing gender dysphoria and seeking transition.

The first part is clearly ridiculous, you can’t demand people be sexually attracted to you. The second part I’m with Matatouille, that feels like a change that might be due to greater acceptance of trans people allowing more to transition.

[Gfamily]

And other specific concerns about how there's a large rise in the numbers of young autistic women experiencing gender dysphoria and seeking transition.

Do we have much information on whether this is a new thing, or that we weren't looking/listening for it so much before?

Isn't it that previously, transitioning wasn't an option until they would be older; and the concern is that early support and intervention may be premature. I knew that this was a concern with the recent 'Mermaids' funding discussion.

[El Pollo Diablo]

Apart from Don's, there haven't yet been many links, and not being fully immersed in these things, I'm going to continue not providing any. But just to mention, from the trans perspective, there have been some pretty terrible behaviours from the TERF side, and things seem to have got to a sort of Israel/Palestine type of fallout where each side does unhelpful things that convince the other side there's no point in trying to be helpful.

For me, my sympathies lie more with the trans side.

I have learnt through bitter experience that I can seriously upset people in the old place debating sexual politics, whilst trying very hard not to. This is because I am a dickhead with the emotional intelligence of a stone and a similar low ability to express nuance. I do not want to see another shirtgate.

For what it's worth, Don, you're very much not the only one, but your heart is in the right place, and that's good. It's just hard to shed decades of thinking or seeing things in one way to then shift that around, particularly in terms of language. I was in a similar place to you, and still fail to understand things sometimes.

My Daughter is trans so I feel this debate personally.

Some time ago there was a video posted of a feminist meeting at speakers corner being disrupted by trans activists. Google that phrase, you'll find it. I did not understand WTF was happening so I started researching. I found a great divide between the "Terfs" and the trans community. I use the term Terf in a purely descriptive way, to describe their position, not in any pejorative way.

If you want an insight go to the late Magdalen Berns Youtube channel and listen to her position and follow the links on her videos to those she is replying to. https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCvTTak ... kMnsH8r0qQ

Positions are entrenched and a long way from a meeting of minds.

Thanks for that, Don.

[murmur]

And other specific concerns about how there's a large rise in the numbers of young autistic women experiencing gender dysphoria and seeking transition.

Do we have much information on whether this is a new thing, or that we weren't looking/listening for it so much before?

I'm not sure how much reliable information there is about that (the Tavistock, as the national specialist centre, may have something - I'll have a rummage later when I get back from going out).

Anecdotally, I'd suggest that this might be linked to more females on the spectrum being seen by the likes of me than was the case and thus having more opportunity to talk about stuff. We did have a couple of Aspergery lads with GI issues, one of whom went to the Tavvy. Again anecdotally, 'cos I'm not aware of any proper research into this area, I wonder to what extent any gender dysphoria is part of a generalised autistic awareness of not fitting in, not being the same as others, not conforming to many social stereotypes'n'that. It would be interesting to pick that apart further to try to understand the processes and issues better.

[Stephanie]

I think this is an interesting read - hopefully might clarify some of the legal aspects

https://legalresearch.blogs.bris.ac.uk/ ... ion-rules/

[noggins]

Patriachy is a tough nut to crack, and the struggle against it raises all sorts of intersectional issues. So punch down with theoretical correctness instead.

[Tessa K]

Trans men certainly have a lower media profile at the moment but here's an interesting, thoughtful article on the experiences of four of them (in the US) with some intersectional elements as well.

As someone said above, some trans people will be a..eholes because some people are a..eholes but there has been a tendency to brand all trans women with the behaviour of a few who may or may not be genuine and who abuse other women.

[Fishnut]

To add to this there's also concerns where some strands of trans activism consider it transphobic for a lesbian not to want to date someone with a penis. And other specific concerns about how there's a large rise in the numbers of young autistic women experiencing gender dysphoria and seeking transition.

The first part is clearly ridiculous, you can’t demand people be sexually attracted to you. The second part I’m with Matatouille, that feels like a change that might be due to greater acceptance of trans people allowing more to transition.

Trans people aren't demanding that people be sexually attracted to them, they're asking that you judge them on who they are individually rather than lumping them together, judging them solely on their genitalia and rejecting even contemplating seeing if there's any attraction there. It's dismissing the idea wholesale that a trans person could be someone you're attracted to. This piece puts its well,

nobody’s saying that every cis person should run out of the house, find the first trans person they see and immediately invite them ’round for candlelit dinners. It’s just that, well, if you’re cis and you meet someone who you think is the cat’s pyjamas, and if you find out she’s trans and your first instinct is to run away screaming? Taking a few deep breaths, educating yourself, and working out why you feel the way you do might just lead to something awesome.

[GeenDienst]

Patriachy is a tough nut to crack, and the struggle against it raises all sorts of intersectional issues. So punch down with theoretical correctness instead.

But there has to be a practical line. The idea that I and my penis could pretend I identify as a woman and use that as a free pass to letch over all the women in a changing room is clearly at the very far end of cuntastication, and a terrible prospect for women who fear being subjected to that in somewhere they currently have as a safe space. And it doesn't really matter if it's an uncommon event, it's a breaking of trust in the facilities. So where's the line that has to be drawn that will preserve some trust? Post surgery?

[Fishnut]

Patriachy is a tough nut to crack, and the struggle against it raises all sorts of intersectional issues. So punch down with theoretical correctness instead.

But there has to be a practical line. The idea that I and my penis could pretend I identify as a woman and use that as a free pass to letch over all the women in a changing room is clearly at the very far end of cuntastication, and a terrible prospect for women who fear being subjected to that in somewhere they currently have as a safe space. And it doesn't really matter if it's an uncommon event, it's a breaking of trust in the facilities. So where's the line that has to be drawn that will preserve some trust? Post surgery? [my emphasis]

There's nothing stopping you doing this now. There's nothing stopping a man from walking into the women's toilets, or a woman walking into a men's. I've done it a few times when the ladies queue has been long and the men's has been empty, and I'm not alone in that. Feeling safe is important, but I have yet to work out how having someone with a penis in the stall next to mine is putting me at risk. The people who are more at risk are trans people. At the moment we limit access to gendered bathrooms based on appearance and self-indentification. I know if I'm entering the men's I'm transgressing and any man who enters a ladies feels, I suspect, the same. By saying that a trans woman should use the mens if she's not had bottom surgery is asking her - someone who looks and identifies as female - to enter a men's bathroom. You're asking her to transgress because the part of her no-one sees somehow trumps the rest of her. As for trans men, I'm not sure how making them use the ladies helps anyone.

[GeenDienst]

I wasn't talking about toilets, because they are easy. Manchester University's concert venue has all-access bogs now, no urinals, just cubicles that anyone can use.

I was using as an example a locker room type changing room, where women might be naked or near naked, and I'm sure it's easy to come up with other examples. And I suspect that if I walked into one of those during opening hours, Her Maj's Constabulary might take an interest, but that's beside the point. It's about whether I should be allowed to get away with claiming a false justfication to do that, and how to stop me doing so.