Anti-trans sentiment

[lpm]

None of that says what you seem to think it does. Transwomen do of course have XY genetics - will produce sperm not eggs - and although they are women by gender it might be very misleading to include any crimes within statistics of crimes committed by women. Biology does matter and the sex differences in crime rates are stark. What exactly are you finding so outrageous in her views?

[Woodchopper]

An example should be easy to present, therefore. I'd be amazed if you found a feminist with such a view.

Link below posted as lpm doesn't believe that such sentiments exist among feminists. Posted to answer lpm's question and not because I endorse the content.

Spoiler:

https://www.reddit.com/r/GenderCritical ... m_wm_2018/

[lpm]

That is not an example of what we are discussing. You are confused. It does not mention gender, only biological sex. "Woman is a biological reality" might be completely irrelevant to the discussion and not carry any practical meaning for determining policy, but it is not factually wrong.

[Tessa K]

How is this different from every other thread we've had on this subject? It started off with a different angle but has descended into the usual argy-bargy

[lpm]

I'm not sure what you think of as argy-bargy.

But if some of the contents of this thread had been posted on twitter, there would have been threats of violence, obscene abuse and attempted doxxing. You and several others have strayed from the trans activist orthodoxy, supported by Stonewall and other organisations, an orthodoxy that does not permit deviation from a simple slogan. You would be added to lists of TERF scum to be pursued, blocked and banned.

The following have posted what are labelled as TERF opinions:

Martin Y
Nekomatic
Tessa K
lpm
GeenDienst
greyspoke
Science_fox
Woodchopper
EllyCat
TAFKAsoveda

Grumble would have seen the outrage against these TERFs and would be "a bit baffled by the amount of anti-trans sentiment from Scrutable members".

[Tessa K]

I'm not sure what you think of as argy-bargy.

But if some of the contents of this thread had been posted on twitter, there would have been threats of violence, obscene abuse and attempted doxxing. You and several others have strayed from the trans activist orthodoxy, supported by Stonewall and other organisations, an orthodoxy that does not permit deviation from a simple slogan. You would be added to lists of TERF scum to be pursued, blocked and banned.

The following have posted what are labelled as TERF opinions:

Martin Y
Nekomatic
Tessa K
lpm
GeenDienst
greyspoke
Science_fox
Woodchopper
EllyCat
TAFKAsoveda

Grumble would have seen the outrage against these TERFs and would be "a bit baffled by the amount of anti-trans sentiment from Scrutable members".

What did I say?

[lpm]

I know, right. Happens to feminists all the time. Totally supportive of trans rights, want to see better support for a vulnerable minority, constantly fighting against male violence against women and the LGBT community.

And suddenly told you're are a transphobe and that your words constitute violence against transpeople. You are left bemused, wondering what the hell in your reasonable and supportive comments could possibly have upset trans orthodoxy.

[Grumble]

I’ve not seen outrage against TERFs, and don’t think I’ve used that term, I was reacting to seeing lots of anger towards trans issues expressed on Twitter. I don’t think I saw much pro-trans stuff at all. I definitely didn’t see any reasoned arguments which is why I thought I’d ask on here, hoping to get more light and less heat which to some extent I have.

(Mostly I use twitter to follow comedians, Stockport County and various MotoGP & BSB riders to be honest. I’m unfollowing politics and other issues based posters actively, although there’s a large crossover with comedians. The lack of reasoned arguments is a function of the short format, but drives simplification and puts me off even people I agree with.)

[TAFKAsoveda]

Oddly despite keeping silent on the matter on Twitter I have been blocked by both sides of the argument.
I suspect purely because I follow people on both sides of the argument.

[Tessa K]

Oddly despite keeping silent on the matter on Twitter I have been blocked by both sides of the argument.
I suspect purely because I follow people on both sides of the argument.

Yes, you can get blocked because of who you follow. I think I'm OK with a bunch of Mediaeval historians.

[purplehaze]

This is from a guide:

DICK: We use this word to describe external genitals. Dicks come
in all shapes and sizes and can belong to people of all genders.

FRONT HOLE: We use this word to talk about internal genitals,
sometimes referred to as a vagina. A front hole may self-lubricate,
depending on age and hormones.

STRAPLESS: We use this word to describe the genitals of trans
women who have not had genital reconstruction (or “bottom
surgery”), sometimes referred to as a penis.

VAGINA: We use this word to talk about the genitals of trans
women who have had bottom surgery.

So only trans women have a vagina? I find this highly insensitive to all cis born women.

https://assets2.hrc.org/files/assets/re ... 1534872273

I do not have internal genitals. I was born with an internal reproductive system that produced six pregnancies with one ovary. My external genital is the vulva with the explicit organ for pleasure the clitoris. The intermediary between the two, outer genitals and inner reproductive system, is the vagina, topped by the cervix - the window to the world!

I'm allowed to say this without being transphobic. I can celebrate being a born female without being transphobic.

[Gfamily]

VAGINA: We use this word to talk about the genitals of trans
women who have had bottom surgery.

So only trans women have a vagina? I find this highly insensitive to all cis born women.

I don't that is intended to be the exclusive use of the word "vagina", rather it's the term to use for that part of a trans woman's body.
It is a pamphlet explaining what terms to use related to safer sex for Trans people, so it's a specific glossary.
I could be wrong.

[purplehaze]

If trans women ARE women, then why the need for specific words for trans?

[Gfamily]

If trans women ARE women, then why the need for specific words for trans?

It's not a specific word for trans. It's the word to use for trans women who have had bottom surgery.

[purplehaze]

If trans women ARE women, then why the need for specific words for trans?

It's not a specific word for trans. It's the word to use for trans women who have had bottom surgery.

How many trans women do you think have 'bottom surgery'?

And separate your thoughts from the reality. What is the actual percentage of trans women who have 'bottom surgery'?

Front hole and bottom surgery.

Thankfully my children were told during sex education classes the exact names of their genitals and reproductive systems. Thankfully they all got vaccinated.

People who wish to change the gender system - go for it! I hated dressing up girly.

People who wish to change their genital body parts due to hatred - every sympathy and they should NEVER have to wait - and these people are not going to go away through self gender id. They still need support and surgery.

[Tessa K]

Here's another aspect of this issue that's about to kick off. Expect much heat to be generated and very little light.

Legal action is being launched against the NHS over the prescribing of drugs to delay puberty.

Papers have been lodged at the High Court by a mother and a nurse against the Tavistock and Portman NHS Trust, which runs the UK's only gender-identity development service (Gids).

Lawyers will argue it is illegal to prescribe the drugs, as children cannot give informed consent to the treatment.

Children can't give informed consent to most medical treatment so that doesn't seem like a good case although it is inevitably more complex than that.

[murmur]

I thought about linking to the Graun piece on that over the weekend, but didn't as I thought it moved discussion too much.

Fraser (nee Gillick - f.cking Graun was still calling it Gillick) guidelines on consent have been around for a very long time and clinicians in relevant services (oooooh, that was me, as all referrals to GIDS at the Tavvy have to come from local CAMHS) are well aware of this and apply it every single working day (in essence we have to be able to justify every single decision we take about whether we seek consent from a bairn, their parent/s or a combination or whatever). Arguing that bairns cannot give informed consent is not borne out in current English law, nor is it, in practice, a sensible thing to try and make blanket statements about (hence Fraser), as there are many bairns out there as capable of considered views and informed consent as most adults. Which is why we have to spend the time going through all these things on a case by case basis.

Some parents still insist on non-sensical variants of their children being their property, which is not the case in English law.

Some of the statements attributed to Evans in the Graun do not sound like my experience of the Tavvy's practice nor the practice of the likes of me as a referrer to them.

And puberty blockers are not automatically prescribed, contrary to the flavour of both pieces, and if they are it is a drawn out process of assessment and discussion, which involves parents unless they choose not to be involved.

[TAFKAsoveda]

I thought about linking to the Graun piece on that over the weekend, but didn't as I thought it moved discussion too much.

Fraser (nee Gillick - f.cking Graun was still calling it Gillick) guidelines on consent have been around for a very long time and clinicians in relevant services (oooooh, that was me, as all referrals to GIDS at the Tavvy have to come from local CAMHS) are well aware of this and apply it every single working day (in essence we have to be able to justify every single decision we take about whether we seek consent from a bairn, their parent/s or a combination or whatever). Arguing that bairns cannot give informed consent is not borne out in current English law, nor is it, in practice, a sensible thing to try and make blanket statements about (hence Fraser), as there are many bairns out there as capable of considered views and informed consent as most adults. Which is why we have to spend the time going through all these things on a case by case basis.

Some parents still insist on non-sensical variants of their children being their property, which is not the case in English law.

Some of the statements attributed to Evans in the Graun do not sound like my experience of the Tavvy's practice nor the practice of the likes of me as a referrer to them.

And puberty blockers are not automatically prescribed, contrary to the flavour of both pieces, and if they are it is a drawn out process of assessment and discussion, which involves parents unless they choose not to be involved.

My experience of the Tavvy with adults is that anything takes a looooooooong time and mucho discussion and head scratching so the idea they would rush things in children I find a bit counter intuitive.

[murmur]

Yup, the young person bit of the service is just as "slow" and deliberate, to the point that 2 of my bairns became quite taxed about the "lack" of progress.

Some of the "reporting" around cases like this and many other things to do with GI services leaves much to be desired and usually displays a lack of knowledge and an abundance of axe-grinding from various quarters...See that Carol Sarler piece from The Heil I used to bring up, which referred to a "gender identity industry", before denying the existence of ADHD.

[murmur]

And that brings us back round to the original topic, as one must question the motivation of some involeved in such things.

[sTeamTraen]

This is in French, but Chrome does a reasonable job of translating.

Summary:
- French feminist is a key member of an anti-(violence-against-women) movement, which has come to be an important voice for feminists in France more generally.
- She considers that the movement is being increasingly taken over by trans activists (e.g., in this Twitter thread), again in French. (I am not in a position to judge the merits of this claim.)
- She claims that this is evidence of the patriarchy oppressing women (e.g., "I see this as an attempt by men to prevent women from expressing themselves").

That last bit is quite a common viewpoint among (I believe the term is) "gender-critical". I find it to be stretching things quite a lot. I have trouble believing in a misogynist cabal who have come up with the evil genius idea of infiltrating transwomen into feminism to undermine it. Maybe I'm naive, but ISTM that you average misogynist is also not too big on the idea of a biological male becoming a woman either. It seems to me that the average alt-righter is far more anti-trans ("gender fluid hur hur", cf Titiana McGrath) then they are anti-women, at least when it comes to explicit statements.

FWIW, as a mostly clueless cishet white male boomer, I just wish that both sides could find some common ground (although I do have some sympathy for the "please don't bring your functioning hairy penis into a changing room full of 13-year-old girls" argument), but other than trying to be a decent human being in my daily interactions with other people, I don't know what else I can do. It seems to me that this is a problem for progressive people to sort out among themselves; the politics that won the civil rights movement won't suffice here, and nor will blaming everything on the Koch brothers, as in the attached bit of (to me) bizarre fingerpointing.

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[nekomatic]

You don’t get, like, a membership card and a monthly magazine for being a member of the patriarchy. You can be in it without even thinking you are. Certainly without someone organising you.

[noggins]

Actually we do, we just don't like you.

[frozenwarning]

This is not going to end well.

I don’t want it to go that way. I want a feminist who’s not sympathetic to trans people to tell me why they feel that way. FrozenWarnings or Le Canard Noir being two on twitter whose names may be familiar to people.

Someone just told me my name was mentioned here. Excuse me? Not sympathetic to trans people? Where did you get that idea? Feel free to PM if you're interested in my views, and I'll happily tell you the real story.

[Grumble]

This is not going to end well.

I don’t want it to go that way. I want a feminist who’s not sympathetic to trans people to tell me why they feel that way. FrozenWarnings or Le Canard Noir being two on twitter whose names may be familiar to people.

Someone just told me my name was mentioned here. Excuse me? Not sympathetic to trans people? Where did you get that idea? Feel free to PM if you're interested in my views, and I'll happily tell you the real story.

Sorry, didn’t want to misrepresent you, and yes I would be happy to have a proper discussion/hearing of your views. I’ll try to find an example of why I got that idea. It’s entirely possible that I got the wrong idea having read single sentences on Twitter, which is why I wanted to have a longer form discussion here.