Veganism.

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bmforre
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Re: Veganism.

Post by bmforre » Thu Jan 09, 2020 3:51 pm

mediocrity511 wrote:
Thu Jan 09, 2020 10:01 am
... I quite specifically mentioned "commercially farmed animals". Worth pointing out that humans used to also receive some of their b12 from vegetables grown in "night soil". The point is that modern farming practises mean we either need to supplement ourselves with b12 or we need to provide sources for animals to supplement themselves.
If you blame the varying availability of cobalt in nature on "modern farming practises" I think that's wrong.
see f.ex. Cobalt in soils.
Snippet:
Why is cobalt added to some soils?

Due to problems associated with cobalt deficiency in agricultural soils, the behaviour of cobalt entering, and within, soils has been studied for a number of years. A lack of cobalt in a form which plants or earth dwelling organisms are able to absorb can have major effects on the health of the wildlife in an area. A classic example of this is the “Nova Scotia Moose Mystery” (Frank et al. 2004), where moose in Eastern North America were observed to have a wasting debilitating disease. It was found to be related to inadequate levels of bioavailable cobalt in their diet. The authors concluded that cobalt salt licks should be introduced in limited areas of Nova Scotia to balance the moose’s diet and restore them to health.

Bioavailable cobalt in soil is also necessary for the healthy functioning of some plants. This is especially true for leguminous plants, with cobalt being an essential nutrient for the micro-organisms which fix atmospheric nitrogen in the plants’ root nodules (Gad 2002).
Modern farming is surely not to blame for such problems.

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Re: Veganism.

Post by Woodchopper » Thu Jan 09, 2020 4:28 pm

Farming may not be responsible for the levels of cobalt in the soil (I just don’t know).

But farming does frequently involve large numbers of animals living in areas that couldn’t provide all of them with an adequate diet without support from humans. For example, regarding cobalt wild sheep could roam over a wide area and probably graze in enough cobalt rich areas. Sheep kept in a field can’t do that. So they get supplements.

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Re: Veganism.

Post by bmforre » Thu Jan 09, 2020 4:48 pm

Woodchopper wrote:
Thu Jan 09, 2020 4:28 pm
Farming may not be responsible for the levels of cobalt in the soil (I just don’t know).

But farming does frequently involve large numbers of animals living in areas that couldn’t provide all of them with an adequate diet without support from humans. For example, regarding cobalt wild sheep could roam over a wide area and probably graze in enough cobalt rich areas. Sheep kept in a field can’t do that. So they get supplements.
The moose on Nova Scotia reported on in the cobalt webpage were wild, not farmed. And suffered from consequences of lack of cobalt because their natural environment offered too little.

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Re: Veganism.

Post by Woodchopper » Thu Jan 09, 2020 4:59 pm

bmforre wrote:
Thu Jan 09, 2020 4:48 pm
Woodchopper wrote:
Thu Jan 09, 2020 4:28 pm
Farming may not be responsible for the levels of cobalt in the soil (I just don’t know).

But farming does frequently involve large numbers of animals living in areas that couldn’t provide all of them with an adequate diet without support from humans. For example, regarding cobalt wild sheep could roam over a wide area and probably graze in enough cobalt rich areas. Sheep kept in a field can’t do that. So they get supplements.
The moose on Nova Scotia reported on in the cobalt webpage were wild, not farmed. And suffered from consequences of lack of cobalt because their natural environment offered too little.
Certainly, but the Nova Scotian moose appears to be an exceptional case. Whereas in my experience giving farmed animals supplements is not unusual.

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Re: Veganism.

Post by Bird on a Fire » Sat Jan 11, 2020 3:33 pm

bmforre wrote:
Wed Jan 08, 2020 1:38 pm
Bird on a Fire wrote:
Wed Jan 08, 2020 12:53 pm
To be honest of all the issues DDB raises I think veganism is the least of that kid's worries.
Not if she goes years and years lacking vit B12.
Well sure, but that's not a necessary or even particularly likely consequence of veganism in 2020.

Absolutely loads of people take a vitamin and/or eat fortified foods regularly. It's really not a big deal.
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Re: Veganism.

Post by GeenDienst » Sat Jan 11, 2020 3:37 pm

Any vegans taking metformin might want to be a bit careful.
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Re: Veganism.

Post by Bird on a Fire » Sat Jan 11, 2020 3:56 pm

plodder wrote:
Thu Jan 09, 2020 8:53 am
Are there any large-group studies of vegans, their health &ct?
Compared to what?

Most public health bodies (eg the WHO, or the Lancet Commission on diet) are mostly trying to get people to eat way more fruits, vegetables and whole grains, less meat and less sugar and salt and fat. So veganism is more inline with an "ideal" diet than a standard western one that turns you into an obese diabetic.

On the other hand there are not many vegans and they may be atypical in other ways. Last time I looked there was good evidence that vegetarians tend to be healthier than the general population, but not many studies on vegans.

That's echoed by this study:
The long-term health of vegetarians and vegans.
Review article
Appleby PN, et al. Proc Nutr Soc. 2016.
Show full citation
Abstract

Vegetarians, who do not eat any meat, poultry or fish, constitute a significant minority of the world's population. Lacto-ovo-vegetarians consume dairy products and/or eggs, whereas vegans do not eat any foods derived wholly or partly from animals. Concerns over the health, environmental and economic consequences of a diet rich in meat and other animal products have focussed attention on those who exclude some or all of these foods from their diet. There has been extensive research into the nutritional adequacy of vegetarian diets, but less is known about the long-term health of vegetarians and vegans. We summarise the main findings from large cross-sectional and prospective cohort studies in western countries with a high proportion of vegetarian participants. Vegetarians have a lower prevalence of overweight and obesity and a lower risk of IHD compared with non-vegetarians from a similar background, whereas the data are equivocal for stroke. For cancer, there is some evidence that the risk for all cancer sites combined is slightly lower in vegetarians than in non-vegetarians, but findings for individual cancer sites are inconclusive. Vegetarians have also been found to have lower risks for diabetes, diverticular disease and eye cataract. Overall mortality is similar for vegetarians and comparable non-vegetarians, but vegetarian groups compare favourably with the general population. The long-term health of vegetarians appears to be generally good, and for some diseases and medical conditions it may be better than that of comparable omnivores. Much more research is needed, particularly on the long-term health of vegans.
I think the suggestion is that most people are not eating enough plants and have way more animal produce in their diets than they should, but that it is possible to be as healthy as a vegetarian without going the whole hog as long as you pay attention to your diet.

The recent Lancet report on future diets was really interesting and full of evidence about how transitioning to a plant-based diet would be beneficial from public health and sustainability perspectives.
https://eatforum.org/eat-lancet-commission/

What struck me looking at their ideal food plate is that it is much closer to a vegan meal than to a conventional one.
Image
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Re: Veganism.

Post by Bird on a Fire » Sat Jan 11, 2020 4:03 pm

Bonus article about shorter-term effects of plant-based diets.
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41398-019-0552-0
The effects of plant-based diets on the body and the brain: a systematic review

Western societies notice an increasing interest in plant-based eating patterns such as vegetarian and vegan, yet potential effects on the body and brain are a matter of debate. Therefore, we systematically reviewed existing human interventional studies on putative effects of a plant-based diet on the metabolism and cognition, and what is known about the underlying mechanisms. Using the search terms “plant-based OR vegan OR vegetarian AND diet AND intervention” in PubMed filtered for clinical trials in humans retrieved 205 studies out of which 27, plus an additional search extending the selection to another five studies, were eligible for inclusion based on three independent ratings. We found robust evidence for short- to moderate-term beneficial effects of plant-based diets versus conventional diets (duration ≤ 24 months) on weight status, energy metabolism and systemic inflammation in healthy participants, obese and type-2 diabetes patients. Initial experimental studies proposed novel microbiome-related pathways, by which plant-based diets modulate the gut microbiome towards a favorable diversity of bacteria species, yet a functional “bottom up” signaling of plant-based diet-induced microbial changes remains highly speculative. In addition, little is known, based on interventional studies about cognitive effects linked to plant-based diets. Thus, a causal impact of plant-based diets on cognitive functions, mental and neurological health and respective underlying mechanisms has yet to be demonstrated. In sum, the increasing interest for plant-based diets raises the opportunity for developing novel preventive and therapeutic strategies against obesity, eating disorders and related comorbidities. Still, putative effects of plant-based diets on brain health and cognitive functions as well as the underlying mechanisms remain largely unexplored and new studies need to address these questions
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Re: Veganism.

Post by Bird on a Fire » Sat Jan 11, 2020 4:19 pm

Woodchopper wrote:
Thu Jan 09, 2020 4:59 pm
bmforre wrote:
Thu Jan 09, 2020 4:48 pm
Woodchopper wrote:
Thu Jan 09, 2020 4:28 pm
Farming may not be responsible for the levels of cobalt in the soil (I just don’t know).

But farming does frequently involve large numbers of animals living in areas that couldn’t provide all of them with an adequate diet without support from humans. For example, regarding cobalt wild sheep could roam over a wide area and probably graze in enough cobalt rich areas. Sheep kept in a field can’t do that. So they get supplements.
The moose on Nova Scotia reported on in the cobalt webpage were wild, not farmed. And suffered from consequences of lack of cobalt because their natural environment offered too little.
Certainly, but the Nova Scotian moose appears to be an exceptional case. Whereas in my experience giving farmed animals supplements is not unusual.
It's probably also worth noting that moose in Nova Scotia are probably going to go extinct, so are probably not the best example of nature functioning as intended:
The surveys, conducted in the winters of 2017 and 2018 for the provincial government, conclude the mainland moose population is in steep decline. This summer, a team of scientists will begin to put together a "status report," and will ultimately determine what, if anything, should be done to save the animal.

In the early 1900s thousands of mainland moose roamed Nova Scotia. By the 1930s there were only around 3,200 left, a number that fell to 1,000 by the early 2000s. Now, according to one of Millette's estimates, there could be fewer than 100 mainland moose remaining in the wild
Lands and Forestry staff note as part of the 2017 survey a series of "drivers" that could be contributing to the decline in the mainland moose. They include climate change, changes in the forest, problems with access to good food, land management practices, road development and poaching.
I don't know much about moose or Nova Scotia specifically, but certainly elsewhere in North America fencing off vast areas of land to exclude herbivores has ended up altering other large ruminants' migrations and use of the landscape. So agricultural and forestry practices could yet be to blame ;)

Link: https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-sco ... -1.5148572
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Re: Veganism.

Post by Sciolus » Sun Jan 12, 2020 7:19 pm

Bird on a Fire wrote:
Sat Jan 11, 2020 3:56 pm
On the other hand there are not many vegans and they may be atypical in other ways. Last time I looked there was good evidence that vegetarians tend to be healthier than the general population, but not many studies on vegans.

That's echoed by this study:
The long-term health of vegetarians and vegans.
Overall mortality is similar for vegetarians and comparable non-vegetarians, but vegetarian groups compare favourably with the general population.
So there is a "volunteer effect" confounder that vegetarians tend to be healthier than average in other ways (e.g. not smoking). That makes it tricky.

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Re: Veganism.

Post by Woodchopper » Sun Jan 12, 2020 8:27 pm

Sciolus wrote:
Sun Jan 12, 2020 7:19 pm
Bird on a Fire wrote:
Sat Jan 11, 2020 3:56 pm
On the other hand there are not many vegans and they may be atypical in other ways. Last time I looked there was good evidence that vegetarians tend to be healthier than the general population, but not many studies on vegans.

That's echoed by this study:
The long-term health of vegetarians and vegans.
Overall mortality is similar for vegetarians and comparable non-vegetarians, but vegetarian groups compare favourably with the general population.
So there is a "volunteer effect" confounder that vegetarians tend to be healthier than average in other ways (e.g. not smoking). That makes it tricky.
For lots more research from the same large cohort study see here: http://www.epic-oxford.org/epic-oxford-publications/

These articles will also be relevant: Mortality in vegetarians and comparable nonvegetarians in the United Kingdom. and Vegetarian Dietary Patterns and Mortality in Adventist Health Study 2

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Re: Veganism.

Post by Woodchopper » Sun Jan 12, 2020 8:34 pm

Bird on a Fire wrote:
Sat Jan 11, 2020 3:56 pm

I think the suggestion is that most people are not eating enough plants and have way more animal produce in their diets than they should, but that it is possible to be as healthy as a vegetarian without going the whole hog as long as you pay attention to your diet.
That's what is looks like from this small study which compares a Mediterranean diet to a vegan diet, and finds that the health benefits are similar.

Contrasting Effects of Short-Term Mediterranean and Vegan Diets on Microvascular Function and Cholesterol in Younger Adults: A Comparative Pilot Study

Looks like the way to health for most people in developed countries is to eat a lot less meat and dairy. It may be that becoming a vegan is a more effective way of doing that compared to trying to cut down.

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Re: Veganism.

Post by sheldrake » Sun Jan 12, 2020 8:43 pm

Vegans who know which fruit and veg to get their amino acids from (e.g. ackee, breadfruit etc..), get plenty of healthy fats from nuts, coconut & olive oils, avocado etc.. and take their vitamin B supplements can be very healthy and athletic.

IIRC the biggest studies on cardiovascular health cite Pescatarians as the healthiest, with vegans coming second. Those studies don't tend to be fine-grained enough to differentiate between 'vegan atheletes' like above and other less careful types of vegan, or indeed to differentiate people carefully choosing good quality cuts of meat to cook with lots of fresh veg from people who stuff down Iceland pepperoni pizza as a staple.

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Re: Veganism.

Post by JQH » Mon Jan 13, 2020 9:34 am

Can a diet which requires taking supplements actually be regarded as healthy?
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Re: Veganism.

Post by cvb » Mon Jan 13, 2020 9:44 am

JQH wrote:
Mon Jan 13, 2020 9:34 am
Can a diet which requires taking supplements actually be regarded as healthy?
This is a point I think is important.

I have nothing against veganism as we probably eat way too much meat that is not very good for the planet as a whole.

Are there breakdowns of veganism by social class as a vegan diet is not cheap, if you need to source avocados and such. Could this be a big confounder when measuring health outcomes?

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Re: Veganism.

Post by discovolante » Mon Jan 13, 2020 9:55 am

cvb wrote:
Mon Jan 13, 2020 9:44 am
JQH wrote:
Mon Jan 13, 2020 9:34 am
Can a diet which requires taking supplements actually be regarded as healthy?
This is a point I think is important.

I have nothing against veganism as we probably eat way too much meat that is not very good for the planet as a whole.

Are there breakdowns of veganism by social class as a vegan diet is not cheap, if you need to source avocados and such. Could this be a big confounder when measuring health outcomes?
Avocados aren't that expensive compared to meat (I know you can get cheap meat) and stuff like that can be offset against eating beans/pulses etc as a protein source.

I think the point is that even if there are deficiencies that require supplementation, if you encourage a plant based diet then that can counteract much more common problems of heart disease etc.

It seems a bit like criticizing people taking up running (who don't otherwise exercise) because it might be bad for their knees.
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Re: Veganism.

Post by discovolante » Mon Jan 13, 2020 9:57 am

Having said that fresh fruit and veg is not always widely available without access to decent transport etc, I wasn't trying to suggest there arent other social/societal issues affecting diet but I think cost may be a slight red herring if you are comparing different types of fresh food.
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Re: Veganism.

Post by Bird on a Fire » Mon Jan 13, 2020 10:59 am

Purely anecdotally, but the most expensive things in our shopping basket are always meat (for my wife), cheese (for us both) and wine (mainly for me, tbh). Vegetables and pulses are really really cheap by comparison.

I don't think stuff like avocados are essential. There are plenty of much cheaper ways of getting plant oils in your diet.
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Re: Veganism.

Post by Bird on a Fire » Mon Jan 13, 2020 11:03 am

JQH wrote:
Mon Jan 13, 2020 9:34 am
Can a diet which requires taking supplements actually be regarded as healthy?
I think this is an interesting philosophical question - as long as you include the supplements in your characterisation of the diet, sure.

All modern agriculture is totally dependent on a raft of synthetic external inputs at some stage in the game. I don't see how a B12 supplement is 'cheating' any more than the (dangerously overused) antibiotics to keep cattle productive in overcrowded conditions, for example.
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Re: Veganism.

Post by Woodchopper » Mon Jan 13, 2020 4:17 pm

Bird on a Fire wrote:
Mon Jan 13, 2020 11:03 am
JQH wrote:
Mon Jan 13, 2020 9:34 am
Can a diet which requires taking supplements actually be regarded as healthy?
I think this is an interesting philosophical question - as long as you include the supplements in your characterisation of the diet, sure.

All modern agriculture is totally dependent on a raft of synthetic external inputs at some stage in the game. I don't see how a B12 supplement is 'cheating' any more than the (dangerously overused) antibiotics to keep cattle productive in overcrowded conditions, for example.
I don't see how its meaningful to differentiate between taking supplements in pill form and, say, eating processed food.

That said, a diet that requires supplements may be less healthy in that people have to make more of a conscious effort to eat healthily. As some people are lazy they might end up with a vitamin deficiency. That applies to omnivores too, but Vitamin D aside, British omnivores eating junk food etc are unlikely to suffer from things like scurvy.

Mechanized farming is completely unnatural. To start with, fields often need to be irrigated, and livestock usually need to be provided with water by the farmer. An argument based upon 'naturalness' is basically a logical fallacy.

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Re: Veganism.

Post by Woodchopper » Mon Jan 13, 2020 4:18 pm

Bird on a Fire wrote:
Mon Jan 13, 2020 10:59 am
Purely anecdotally, but the most expensive things in our shopping basket are always meat (for my wife), cheese (for us both) and wine (mainly for me, tbh). Vegetables and pulses are really really cheap by comparison.

I don't think stuff like avocados are essential. There are plenty of much cheaper ways of getting plant oils in your diet.
Yes, but you live where the vegetables I eat at this time of year are grown. They're more expensive here.

It would be interesting to compare calories per Euro for different foods in different places.

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Re: Veganism.

Post by dyqik » Mon Jan 13, 2020 4:32 pm

Woodchopper wrote:
Mon Jan 13, 2020 4:18 pm
Bird on a Fire wrote:
Mon Jan 13, 2020 10:59 am
Purely anecdotally, but the most expensive things in our shopping basket are always meat (for my wife), cheese (for us both) and wine (mainly for me, tbh). Vegetables and pulses are really really cheap by comparison.

I don't think stuff like avocados are essential. There are plenty of much cheaper ways of getting plant oils in your diet.
Yes, but you live where the vegetables I eat at this time of year are grown. They're more expensive here.

It would be interesting to compare calories per Euro for different foods in different places.
That could be somewhat misleading, as calories are fairly cheap everywhere in the developed world, and fresh vegetables, for example, generally aren't purchased for their calorie content. You can eat a complete protein vegan diet* for pretty small amounts of money, and for most well off people, a big chunk of the cost will be spices and add-ins to make it interesting and palatable, plus the time investment to cook it.

*Rice and beans, etc.

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Re: Veganism.

Post by Fishnut » Mon Jan 13, 2020 4:46 pm

Woodchopper wrote:
Mon Jan 13, 2020 4:18 pm
Bird on a Fire wrote:
Mon Jan 13, 2020 10:59 am
Purely anecdotally, but the most expensive things in our shopping basket are always meat (for my wife), cheese (for us both) and wine (mainly for me, tbh). Vegetables and pulses are really really cheap by comparison.

I don't think stuff like avocados are essential. There are plenty of much cheaper ways of getting plant oils in your diet.
Yes, but you live where the vegetables I eat at this time of year are grown. They're more expensive here.

It would be interesting to compare calories per Euro for different foods in different places.
I haven't looked at calories per Euro but I did find this site that compares prices around the world. They have a list of products here. I had a look at some staples - onions, tomatoes, bananas and apples. I was surprised that onions were more expensive in France than the rest of western europe (excluding Switzerland). Clearly my stereotypes about the French spending their days cycling around with garlands of onions are outdated! Norway and Switzerland have higher food prices than surrounding countries.

I don't know how frequently prices get updated - it seems to be user-contributed data - so I don't know if it's possible to track prices over the year.

As an aside, when I lived in the Falkland Islands fruit and vegetables were the most expensive part of my shopping. Lamb and mutton was pretty cheap as it was locally sourced, and fish was free (perks of working in the Fisheries Department!) but apart from a very small proportion that was grown in a market garden, everything was shipped in from Chile. If there were delays then the shelves could get incredibly bare.
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Re: Veganism.

Post by mediocrity511 » Mon Jan 13, 2020 4:49 pm

Woodchopper wrote:
Mon Jan 13, 2020 4:17 pm
Bird on a Fire wrote:
Mon Jan 13, 2020 11:03 am
JQH wrote:
Mon Jan 13, 2020 9:34 am
Can a diet which requires taking supplements actually be regarded as healthy?
I think this is an interesting philosophical question - as long as you include the supplements in your characterisation of the diet, sure.

All modern agriculture is totally dependent on a raft of synthetic external inputs at some stage in the game. I don't see how a B12 supplement is 'cheating' any more than the (dangerously overused) antibiotics to keep cattle productive in overcrowded conditions, for example.
I don't see how its meaningful to differentiate between taking supplements in pill form and, say, eating processed food.

That said, a diet that requires supplements may be less healthy in that people have to make more of a conscious effort to eat healthily. As some people are lazy they might end up with a vitamin deficiency. That applies to omnivores too, but Vitamin D aside, British omnivores eating junk food etc are unlikely to suffer from things like scurvy.

Mechanized farming is completely unnatural. To start with, fields often need to be irrigated, and livestock usually need to be provided with water by the farmer. An argument based upon 'naturalness' is basically a logical fallacy.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/heal ... 95686.html

Although we are currently seeing large rises in the number of people admitted to hospital with malnutrition related illnesses. Including a small number of cases of children with scurvy!

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Re: Veganism.

Post by AMS » Mon Jan 13, 2020 5:30 pm

Fishnut wrote:
Mon Jan 13, 2020 4:46 pm
I was surprised that onions were more expensive in France than the rest of western europe (excluding Switzerland). Clearly my stereotypes about the French spending their days cycling around with garlands of onions are outdated!
Maybe they're a status symbol? Rural bling.

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