Veganism.

[discovolante]

My D-i-L is driving me f.cking crazy with her new-found vegan activism. I've been vegetarian for over 30 years. Now, there's little chance of me forswearing cheese and dairy. The evangelism is strong in this one, and she's making me a bit angry. We'll have to have an awkward conversation quite soon.
She's not really helping to get to get the 'thoughtful eating' message across.

Militant vegans aren't convincing many people. It's Corbynism with food.

I was talking to a friend yesterday evening who is trying to be 'more vegan' i.e. reduce meat and dairy - she spent new year with several couples including some heavy meat eaters who apparently spent a good chunk of the evening 'jokingly' making fun of her for it.

It'd just be really nice if people could discuss dietary preferences in a respectful way all round without trying to make each other feel bad or stupid about it, wouldn't it.

[mediocrity511]

My D-i-L is driving me f.cking crazy with her new-found vegan activism. I've been vegetarian for over 30 years. Now, there's little chance of me forswearing cheese and dairy. The evangelism is strong in this one, and she's making me a bit angry. We'll have to have an awkward conversation quite soon.
She's not really helping to get to get the 'thoughtful eating' message across.

Militant vegans aren't convincing many people. It's Corbynism with food.

The zeal of the converts!

The funny thing is, I know quite a few extreme vegans. As in quite heavily involved in animal rights activism. They actually aren't preachy in their personal life at all. One of them even ate cheesy bread once at mine when hadn't realised it was cheesy and didn't even say anything.

Me, I probably describe myself as a dairy reducing vegetarian. I don't use milk any more, finding various alternatives preferable taste wise even. I found a very good butter substitute over Christmas, so will cross that of the list. It's basically just bits of dairy in prepared foods and the odd bit of paneer and halloumi. Miniocrity2 is allergic to egg, so that was cut out without making a choice about it.

[Opti]

My D-i-L is driving me f.cking crazy with her new-found vegan activism. I've been vegetarian for over 30 years. Now, there's little chance of me forswearing cheese and dairy. The evangelism is strong in this one, and she's making me a bit angry. We'll have to have an awkward conversation quite soon.
She's not really helping to get to get the 'thoughtful eating' message across.

Militant vegans aren't convincing many people. It's Corbynism with food.

I was talking to a friend yesterday evening who is trying to be 'more vegan' i.e. reduce meat and dairy - she spent new year with several couples including some heavy meat eaters who apparently spent a good chunk of the evening 'jokingly' making fun of her for it.

It'd just be really nice if people could discuss dietary preferences in a respectful way all round without trying to make each other feel bad or stupid about it, wouldn't it.

Totally right. I've been the one on the receiving end this week. Constant comment about my lack of 'purity'. When I'm in their house I am totally vegan, no probs. I don't need to be lectured about my dietary choices. Sometimes it's not the vegans being on the end of a diatribe.
I'm ethically content with my choices.

[GeenDienst]

Apparently, corn fed vegans taste delicious.

[discovolante]

My D-i-L is driving me f.cking crazy with her new-found vegan activism. I've been vegetarian for over 30 years. Now, there's little chance of me forswearing cheese and dairy. The evangelism is strong in this one, and she's making me a bit angry. We'll have to have an awkward conversation quite soon.
She's not really helping to get to get the 'thoughtful eating' message across.

Militant vegans aren't convincing many people. It's Corbynism with food.

I was talking to a friend yesterday evening who is trying to be 'more vegan' i.e. reduce meat and dairy - she spent new year with several couples including some heavy meat eaters who apparently spent a good chunk of the evening 'jokingly' making fun of her for it.

It'd just be really nice if people could discuss dietary preferences in a respectful way all round without trying to make each other feel bad or stupid about it, wouldn't it.

Totally right. I've been the one on the receiving end this week. Constant comment about my lack of 'purity'. When I'm in their house I am totally vegan, no probs. I don't need to be lectured about my dietary choices. Sometimes it's not the vegans being on the end of a diatribe.
I'm ethically content with my choices.

Hopefully she will calm down when enough people tell her to tone it down. And maybe realises that ethical purchase/consumption choices are always going to be a bit messy and difficult regardless of what we eat.

[Squeak]

Opti - I assume that DIL eats grains and/or pulses. In which case, a quiet question about the social lives, intelligence, and capacity for suffering of rodents might add a bit of nuance to her thinking. A large part of the reason that we can feed so many humans is our successful pest control in plant cropping and storage.

As a vegetarian, I'm a bit uncomfortable about the animal suffering involved in my egg and dairy consumption but I'm also a bit uncomfortable with the suffering associated with protecting my plant-based foods. There is no perfect diet, just many, many trade-offs.

[plodder]

A lot of food labelled "vegan" is grown using manure-based soil conditioners and fertilisers. It's entirely sensible to want to consume food that's grown as sustainably as possible but perfect is the enemy of good after all.

[daydreambeliever]

Hi everyone - lovely to hear from Disco on this thread re: DIL. Sadly she is just surrounding herself with people who back up her point of view. The thing that really annoys me is that they pay a lot of attention to lovely food for them but don't seem to have a clue how to bring up a child that they have decided will be vegan. Whilst we were there she asked for scrambled eggs, sushi & fish & chips. We feel she is being punished as these were foods that she had on our last visit. I just know it's not a point of discussion. DIL is on a vegan website & someone asked how to bring up a child as vegan and she really didn't have any ideas.....kids eh?

[plodder]

Meh, hippies (!). I know people with vegan dogs. They muddle through.

[mediocrity511]

Hi everyone - lovely to hear from Disco on this thread re: DIL. Sadly she is just surrounding herself with people who back up her point of view. The thing that really annoys me is that they pay a lot of attention to lovely food for them but don't seem to have a clue how to bring up a child that they have decided will be vegan. Whilst we were there she asked for scrambled eggs, sushi & fish & chips. We feel she is being punished as these were foods that she had on our last visit. I just know it's not a point of discussion. DIL is on a vegan website & someone asked how to bring up a child as vegan and she really didn't have any ideas.....kids eh?

How old is your granddaughter?

https://www.firststepsnutrition.org/eat ... arly-years

First Steps Nutrition produce a really clear guide on how to raise vegan under 5s. They have nice illustrations of what the diet could look like and advice about the most common pitfalls. It's a good starting point and an unbiased source.

[daydreambeliever]

Hiya, she's four & DIL still insists on the odd breast feeding......even grand daughter told me is wasn't any good for her anymore. They aren't planning on sending her to school, home ed instead. Basically they are bringing her up following attachment parenting (US) term, here I think it's referred to as child led. That is unless of course she wants to eat fish & eggs. The not going to school thing is starting to get to me too! They aren't planning to visit us in Spain anytime soon. She hasn't had a sleep over, and I think so much of that is so they can control her environment.

[Bird on a Fire]

So after today's ruling can we still take the piss out of them?

Take the piss out of them for what?

Everyone who knows anything agrees that more veganism is necessary to address the climate and biodiversity crises.

Is it just because they're different to you, or does the knowledge that they're actually probably right make you feel a bit funny so you get over it by pisstaking instead?

I'm not a vegan btw. But I do know how draining it is when every meal in public becomes an inquisition, to the extent that I have avoided spending time with certain older relatives and family friends who are just relentlessly f.cking tedious from the getgo without the slightest provocation beyond my daring to eat slightly differently.

[Grumble]

Hiya, she's four & DIL still insists on the odd breast feeding......even grand daughter told me is wasn't any good for her anymore. They aren't planning on sending her to school, home ed instead. Basically they are bringing her up following attachment parenting (US) term, here I think it's referred to as child led. That is unless of course she wants to eat fish & eggs. The not going to school thing is starting to get to me too! They aren't planning to visit us in Spain anytime soon. She hasn't had a sleep over, and I think so much of that is so they can control her environment.

I think our eldest child’s first sleepover was at the age of 9 or so. Middle and youngest child have not had one yet. Separately from us I mean. I don’t think sleepovers away from parents (if that’s what you mean) are particularly common by age four.

[cvb]

Hiya, she's four & DIL still insists on the odd breast feeding......even grand daughter told me is wasn't any good for her anymore. They aren't planning on sending her to school, home ed instead. Basically they are bringing her up following attachment parenting (US) term, here I think it's referred to as child led. That is unless of course she wants to eat fish & eggs. The not going to school thing is starting to get to me too! They aren't planning to visit us in Spain anytime soon. She hasn't had a sleep over, and I think so much of that is so they can control her environment.

I think our eldest child’s first sleepover was at the age of 9 or so. Middle and youngest child have not had one yet. Separately from us I mean. I don’t think sleepovers away from parents (if that’s what you mean) are particularly common by age four.

That's probably true enough. It depends on the age of their cousins/friends etc

My ones would probably have been around 5 or 6 but 4 year olds have slept over with us, younger cousin staying with his two elder brothers.

The other things would be more concerning. Home educating parents are often very woo.

[noggins]

I cant unsee Viz' Modern Parents in ddb's posts. Condolences.

[Woodchopper]

Hiya, she's four & DIL still insists on the odd breast feeding......even grand daughter told me is wasn't any good for her anymore. They aren't planning on sending her to school, home ed instead. Basically they are bringing her up following attachment parenting (US) term, here I think it's referred to as child led. That is unless of course she wants to eat fish & eggs. The not going to school thing is starting to get to me too! They aren't planning to visit us in Spain anytime soon. She hasn't had a sleep over, and I think so much of that is so they can control her environment.

Your last sentence is most concerning.

If they are determined that the child be raised solely on a vegan diet then they will need to limit its interaction with other people. For example, its normal for small children to share food so play with non-vegan children may be a problem (especially if they want to stop the child getting a taste for sweets or chocolate). As they get older, children like to visit their friends and may have access to all sorts of food.

Speaking as a parent, its important that a child is given some limited autonomy which is slowly extended as they get older. That's going to be difficult with such a level of parental control.

[cvb]

Hiya, she's four & DIL still insists on the odd breast feeding......even grand daughter told me is wasn't any good for her anymore. They aren't planning on sending her to school, home ed instead. Basically they are bringing her up following attachment parenting (US) term, here I think it's referred to as child led. That is unless of course she wants to eat fish & eggs. The not going to school thing is starting to get to me too! They aren't planning to visit us in Spain anytime soon. She hasn't had a sleep over, and I think so much of that is so they can control her environment.

Your last sentence is most concerning.

If they are determined that the child be raised solely on a vegan diet then they will need to limit its interaction with other people. For example, its normal for small children to share food so play with non-vegan children may be a problem (especially if they want to stop the child getting a taste for sweets or chocolate). As they get older, children like to visit their friends and may have access to all sorts of food.

Speaking as a parent, its important that a child is given some limited autonomy which is slowly extended as they get older. That's going to be difficult with such a level of parental control.

Children need to socialise with other children if they are going to develop properly.

Don't know much about vegan diet but I have heard it is fairly hard to bring a child up on a strict vegan diet.

[Tessa K]

That child is going to have so much to rebel against in about ten years time.

[Pucksoppet]

If you are concerned about a child's welfare, which I would think includes the adequacy of the nutrition the child obtains, there are channels...

Veganism is a reasonable tradition in which to raise a child, but doing it poorly can have long-term consequences. This is about protecting the child from poor decisions made by the parents. On the other hand, children are quite capable of choosing to eat a poor diet themselves. Some are remarkably picky eaters, but manage to survive into adulthood.

Maybe one strategy is to offer to help pay for the foods that assure a nutritionally adequate diet - offering to go halves on a list of ingredients the mother may not be aware of as being necessary/useful until she reads the list might be helpful. This comes across more as "Let me help you (do the right thing)..." rather than "You should be doing...".

[mediocrity511]

Hiya, she's four & DIL still insists on the odd breast feeding......even grand daughter told me is wasn't any good for her anymore. They aren't planning on sending her to school, home ed instead. Basically they are bringing her up following attachment parenting (US) term, here I think it's referred to as child led. That is unless of course she wants to eat fish & eggs. The not going to school thing is starting to get to me too! They aren't planning to visit us in Spain anytime soon. She hasn't had a sleep over, and I think so much of that is so they can control her environment.

Your last sentence is most concerning.

If they are determined that the child be raised solely on a vegan diet then they will need to limit its interaction with other people. For example, its normal for small children to share food so play with non-vegan children may be a problem (especially if they want to stop the child getting a taste for sweets or chocolate). As they get older, children like to visit their friends and may have access to all sorts of food.

Speaking as a parent, its important that a child is given some limited autonomy which is slowly extended as they get older. That's going to be difficult with such a level of parental control.

I wouldn't think that raising a vegan child means limiting their interaction with other people. I know people raising vegan children who certainly don't! Obviously the teenage years will get more challenging. But especially with the rise of food allergies, most parents/schools/groups are much more aware of different diets and ask parents what foods their child can or can't eat.

Most of the vegans I know do allow their child to choose to eat animal products at some point in their lives.

[daydreambeliever]

Sadly I think we have covered all bases! We pay money into DIL bank account when we stay, we also do shopping. This child led thing means she can have an ice lolly for breakfast, lots of biscuits, and chocolate (all vegan). The last visit was really upsetting! DIL mentioned the amount of biscuits she had but said it was really just because it was Christmas. We were there from 30/12 till 4/1. I just can't believe the turn around in the way they are. I'm putting it down to them moving from London to Barry & trying to get their dog walking business off the ground. When we did sit down to dinner with them she spends her time not eating (never the same food as them - because she wouldn't like it!) but chasing the dog under the table. The one thing they do offer her is fruit - which is basically f.cking her teeth up - as she doesn't have to brush them - child led! As she doesn't have any friends then a sleepover isn't going to happen - although I don't think 4 is too young - if you have been around the other child & parent for a couple of years.

Sorry everyone! But seriously we have tried - the last talk we had was about her having her own room (She sleeps with them) but has been asking to have her room. We made the point that they had promised her room when they moved to Barry. It was an amicable discussion, but the diet thing just seems to be off the table. I think the point that upsets me the most is that they put so much effort into their food, £35 balsamic vinegar & tomatoes ordered off the net, & literally hours making their dinner! I actually don't think she has had a lentil & doesn't get offered nuts, avocado, hummus & olives (all these things she used to eat & are in the fridge) I know you can't force food on children & I know she will survive - children get by on way less, and she is bright. I'm just sad that they obviously want the best for her - but really seem to be loosing the plot!

[Woodchopper]

Hiya, she's four & DIL still insists on the odd breast feeding......even grand daughter told me is wasn't any good for her anymore. They aren't planning on sending her to school, home ed instead. Basically they are bringing her up following attachment parenting (US) term, here I think it's referred to as child led. That is unless of course she wants to eat fish & eggs. The not going to school thing is starting to get to me too! They aren't planning to visit us in Spain anytime soon. She hasn't had a sleep over, and I think so much of that is so they can control her environment.

Your last sentence is most concerning.

If they are determined that the child be raised solely on a vegan diet then they will need to limit its interaction with other people. For example, its normal for small children to share food so play with non-vegan children may be a problem (especially if they want to stop the child getting a taste for sweets or chocolate). As they get older, children like to visit their friends and may have access to all sorts of food.

Speaking as a parent, its important that a child is given some limited autonomy which is slowly extended as they get older. That's going to be difficult with such a level of parental control.

I wouldn't think that raising a vegan child means limiting their interaction with other people. I know people raising vegan children who certainly don't! Obviously the teenage years will get more challenging. But especially with the rise of food allergies, most parents/schools/groups are much more aware of different diets and ask parents what foods their child can or can't eat.

Most of the vegans I know do allow their child to choose to eat animal products at some point in their lives.

Of course vegan children can be brought up with normal interaction with people. But I think that your last sentence is key to that happening. The parents being described seem to want to control their child in order to prevent any consumption - eg homeschooling etc.

[Woodchopper]

Opti - I assume that DIL eats grains and/or pulses. In which case, a quiet question about the social lives, intelligence, and capacity for suffering of rodents might add a bit of nuance to her thinking. A large part of the reason that we can feed so many humans is our successful pest control in plant cropping and storage.

As a vegetarian, I'm a bit uncomfortable about the animal suffering involved in my egg and dairy consumption but I'm also a bit uncomfortable with the suffering associated with protecting my plant-based foods. There is no perfect diet, just many, many trade-offs.

I just read about the vast numbers of bees that die in order to polinate almond trees (which are used to produce almond milk).
https://www.theguardian.com/environment ... -hives-aoe

[FairySmall]

Hi ddb - great to see you on here! Families can be tough, huh? But it sounds like you're doing everything you can, and kids are amazingly resilient. I must admit zealous pushing of any parenting method is a bugbear of mine, probably because I've been on the receiving end of so much in the past couple of years. Lots of attachment theory is evidence based and sensible (giving your child lots of hugs, sure!) but as with everything it can get taken to extremes.

[basementer]

One of the most widely applied pesticides is the herbicide...

FFS.