Plastic packaging is not the enemy

[bjn]

OK, but let's ignore the Nigerian coast(1) and the Soviet Union's horrendous treatment of the environment in places like the Kazakhstan oil fields(2).

The oil industry tends to go out of it's way to prevent oil spills, if for no other reason than it's lost revenue. Arguably the biggest environmental impact from the oil industry in recent years has been the damage caused by fracking in America (I think Tennessee would be upset if you called it the 3rd world!) when fracking was a new technology and still not well understood, so they: a) fracked where the geology wasn't suitable, and b) didn't clean-up their water properly before disposal.

Not that I'm trying to paint the oil industry as saints (hey, I work for them) - they are capitalist industries who try to maximise profits for their shareholders - but they aren't the rapacious environmental murders that many people seem to believe.

(1) Most of the Nigerian spills were caused by local people trying to get compensation for damage to their land, and underestimating the extent of the spills they would cause.
(2) The Soviet's simply didn't care about the locals, they needed the oil for their industry and didn't care about the environment. But this had nothing to do with the oil industries.

Nigeria and Russia was mainly what I was thinking of. But the Alberta tar sands are bastard things as well, consuming a huge amount of water to process them, even if they don't spill that often.

True, and not the cleanest way of producing hydrocarbons, but again I think it's off to call Canada a 3rd world country!

I’ve lived in Quebec!

[nekomatic]

I’m wondering currently if I should replace my diesel car with an electric. It’s nowhere near the end of its life.

I would start by trying to find out what the actual NOx emissions of your diesel are, as I believe the ones that are bad for that are really bad while the ones that aren’t are a whole lot better. Not sure where you find that info most easily but if I discover I’ll share it.

I found this site which claims to use real driving emission data, where available. I’m still not sure yet whether that’s ‘real’ as measured by the tests which the dodgy software was designed to cheat, or really real though…

[Sciolus]

Never heard of that one. Equa Index is probably the most authoritative independent source of real-world emissions data. But please don't confuse NOx (local air quality, getting better) with CO2 (global climate change, getting worse).

[nekomatic]

Very interesting, thanks.

But please don't confuse NOx (local air quality, getting better) with CO2 (global climate change, getting worse).

Of course. But the challenge is to figure out what relative weighting to give to those two concerns.

[secret squirrel]

I have nothing sensible or evidenced based to add atm but overall i feel (broadly speaking) we are almost hard wired to see the solution to problems such as plastic, food waste etc as being to replace one type of consumption with another, rather than just trying to look at how we can reduce consumption. E.g. buying reusable coffee cups rather than just not having a cup of coffee on the go.

I do mean broadly speaking but I'm kind of interested to see if my hunch is right or not. I mean the reality is that we need to eat and practically nobody has the space or time to even consider being remotely self-sustaining so there are limits to what we can do. But e.g. buying lots of snacks in disposable packaging, buying new clothes etc.

We have had discussions about buying new economic appliances vs running old ones into the ground quite a few times but I'm talking more broadly here.

For what it's worth, this is a theme in Naomi Klein's book This changes everything.

[plodder]

Of course, the grown up solution is to do what people did only about 20 years ago, and not expect to be able to drink coffee wherever and whenever you want.

[Martin_B]

I have nothing sensible or evidenced based to add atm but overall i feel (broadly speaking) we are almost hard wired to see the solution to problems such as plastic, food waste etc as being to replace one type of consumption with another, rather than just trying to look at how we can reduce consumption. E.g. buying reusable coffee cups rather than just not having a cup of coffee on the go.

Only ~20 years ago I was considered a dinosaur in the office because I had a mug which I used multiple times a day and washed (not daily - usually ~twice-weekly, depending on how tea-stained it was).

The office was trying to reduce energy usage (early 'green') and disposable plastic cups which were used once and collected (dirty) for recycling was considered the 'greener' option than generating hot water and cleaning a mug.

OK, people are probably better educated on how to conserve energy these days, but I still find a lack of understanding on whole lifecycle energy costs, and a blinkered view that nothing used energy before they saw it and no energy is used once it's out of their sight.

[bjn]

Of course, the grown up solution is to do what people did only about 20 years ago, and not expect to be able to drink coffee wherever and whenever you want.

You aren’t Italian are you.

[dyqik]

Of course, the grown up solution is to do what people did only about 20 years ago, and not expect to be able to drink coffee wherever and whenever you want.

You aren’t Italian are you.

Italians would drink it standing up from a ceramic cup that they then leave behind in the coffee shop.

In Our Time from a couple of months back informed me that this is due to Italy having had price control on cups of coffee, but not including service etc. So the cheapest coffee option was an espresso downed at the counter.

Which suggests a simple solution - mandatory charges for take-out cups.

[Bird on a Fire]

Of course, the grown up solution is to do what people did only about 20 years ago, and not expect to be able to drink coffee wherever and whenever you want.

You aren’t Italian are you.

Italians would drink it standing up from a ceramic cup that they then leave behind in the coffee shop.

In Our Time from a couple of months back informed me that this is due to Italy having had price control on cups of coffee, but not including service etc. So the cheapest coffee option was an espresso downed at the counter.

Which suggests a simple solution - mandatory charges for take-out cups.

It's like this in Portugal. You can get a €0,60 espresso absolutely everywhere, or €1 max diluted with water or milk or both. In a ceramic cup, often with seating options. Literally everywhere.

My town of 100k+ has no Starbucks or similar. I think the only place you can get a takeaway coffee is the McDonalds.

I suspect that there are cultural factors as well as market forces, though that is a two-way street.

ETA what episode of In Our Time? Might check it out if you can remember the topic

[Gfamily]

ETA what episode of In Our Time? Might check it out if you can remember the topic

I could be wrong, but most likely the 12th Dec one called 'Coffee'

[Bird on a Fire]

ETA what episode of In Our Time? Might check it out if you can remember the topic

I could be wrong, but most likely the 12th Dec one called 'Coffee'

Very plausible, thanks!

[bjn]

Of course, the grown up solution is to do what people did only about 20 years ago, and not expect to be able to drink coffee wherever and whenever you want.

You aren’t Italian are you.

Italians would drink it standing up from a ceramic cup that they then leave behind in the coffee shop.

In Our Time from a couple of months back informed me that this is due to Italy having had price control on cups of coffee, but not including service etc. So the cheapest coffee option was an espresso downed at the counter.

Which suggests a simple solution - mandatory charges for take-out cups.

But in Italy you can get such a coffee wherever and whenever you want. Or pop a moka pot onto your stove and make one yourself. I've even got a lovely tiny moka pot I use when wild camping.

[dyqik]

ETA what episode of In Our Time? Might check it out if you can remember the topic

I could be wrong, but most likely the 12th Dec one called 'Coffee'

Very plausible, thanks!

Yeah, that's the floppy eared furry thing that lives in burrows.

[plodder]

that’s equally complex as all the others.

[Martin Y]

… ETA what episode of In Our Time? Might check it out if you can remember the topic

Ah. That would be the one about the history of coffee, from last December: https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m000c4x1

[plodder]

Consumerism is a modern phenomenon created by modern conditions. To end consumerism all we need to do is remove those conditions.

[bjn]

Consumerism is a modern phenomenon created by modern conditions. To end consumerism all we need to do is remove those conditions.

Good luck with that when so many people and organisations have a vested interest in it.

[plodder]

Most people always have a vested interest in the status quo, yet things change constantly.

[Herainestold]

Consumerism is a modern phenomenon created by modern conditions. To end consumerism all we need to do is remove those conditions.

I dont know what you mean apart from removing capitalism..which is obvious.

[plodder]

Right, but what exactly does that mean in practice? It's as simple as a few tweaks on the creation and flows of cash, that's all. It would have profound effects.

[Herainestold]

Right, but what exactly does that mean in practice? It's as simple as a few tweaks on the creation and flows of cash, that's all. It would have profound effects.

I have no idea what you are talking about. Carry on.

[plodder]

capitalism is just the result of free flows of cash. used to be that the plebs couldn’t get access to credit, now they can, they’ve invested and borrowed more and boom. Consumerism. It’s not a difficult concept.

[Woodchopper]

I've split the food production derail into a new thread, as it seemed to deserve more exposure
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