Personal success (Split thread)
Re: Personal success (Split thread)
Oh no, I object to the statement that parenthood leads to greater financial success. I've asked a couple of questions regarding this that I'd be grateful if you could revisit. I think most parents would see success in non-financial terms.
I also want to understand whether you mean financial success relative to a baseline of greater immaturity in the same individual, or financial success relative to peers.
The former is a silly definition - we know people's earnings increase with age and it's not due to having children, it's to do with increased skill. However I think this is the definition you want to use?
For the latter definition many adults (especially women) feel that they need to make a choice between career and family. Are these people wrong?
I also want to understand whether you mean financial success relative to a baseline of greater immaturity in the same individual, or financial success relative to peers.
The former is a silly definition - we know people's earnings increase with age and it's not due to having children, it's to do with increased skill. However I think this is the definition you want to use?
For the latter definition many adults (especially women) feel that they need to make a choice between career and family. Are these people wrong?
Re: Personal success (Split thread)
To establish a strong correlation, you would have to show that it is rare that highly conscientious people are financially precarious.
My avatar was a scientific result that was later found to be 'mistaken' - I rarely claim to be 100% correct
ETA 5/8/20: I've been advised that the result was correct, it was the initial interpretation that needed to be withdrawn
Meta? I'd say so!
ETA 5/8/20: I've been advised that the result was correct, it was the initial interpretation that needed to be withdrawn
Meta? I'd say so!
Re: Personal success (Split thread)
And also that they are more likely to achieve run away success.
Conscientiousness obviously has a direct and mechanistic effect on financial matters. If you don't check things very carefully and can regularly, a financially disadvantaged position is more likely to result disaster - that's obvious. So you can't use things like bankruptcy rate etc. to demonstrate that precariousness directly. What you'd need to do is show that conscientious people are less often in a precarious financial position where the average person would be at some level of risk of disaster, and that they are better at getting away from that precarious position. That's fairly likely to be true because there's pretty easy to understand mechanisms whereby that could happen.
You should then also look at the role that lucky factors, like parents character, availability of role-models, access to good advice, etc., plays in developing conscientiousness. Conscientiousness is massively entangled with social capital, and general availability of time and effort to carry it out, after all.
Re: Personal success (Split thread)
That would do it. My experience (back to the anecdotes) is that those who are most conscientious (i.e. full time carers, volunteers, the helpful person on my street) tend to have relatively small amounts of disposable income, whereas the selfish thoughtless cynical bastards drive round in the big Audis. But I'm probably completely wrong.
Re: Personal success (Split thread)
I think we need to agree a very precise definition of conscientiousness.
Re: Personal success (Split thread)
That's easy, it's just your bank balance multiplied by the number of children you have. We can work backwards from there.
Re: Personal success (Split thread)
It's as if... as if... the rich deserve it. All of it. Because they're better people.
Or perhaps Frank Grimes has a point:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=axHoy0h ... e=youtu.be
Or perhaps Frank Grimes has a point:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=axHoy0h ... e=youtu.be
Re: Personal success (Split thread)
I'm sure Grimes disagrees - is she still dating Elon Musk?plodder wrote: ↑Thu Jan 16, 2020 1:29 pmIt's as if... as if... the rich deserve it. All of it. Because they're better people.
Or perhaps Frank Grimes has a point:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=axHoy0h ... e=youtu.be
Re: Personal success (Split thread)
Other things accounted for, it is rarer that they're poor and more likely that they are rich.
I don't think you've read the existing research on this yet....
You should then also look at the role that lucky factors, like parents character, availability of role-models, access to good advice, etc., plays in developing conscientiousness. Conscientiousness is massively entangled with social capital, and general availability of time and effort to carry it out, after all.
The role models, parental character etc.. are all things that help form conscientiousness, correct.
Re: Personal success (Split thread)
We're only discussing economic success here.
The former.I also want to understand whether you mean financial success relative to a baseline of greater immaturity in the same individual, or financial success relative to peers.
here's a body of research supporting social investment theory which says that assumption isn't right. I think you're working very hard to suggest that people's children are foremost in their minds when they're motivated to provideThe former is a silly definition - we know people's earnings increase with age and it's not due to having children, it's to do with increased skill. However I think this is the definition you want to use?
Re: Personal success (Split thread)
Lets start with an objective measure of conscientiousness - got one yet?
My avatar was a scientific result that was later found to be 'mistaken' - I rarely claim to be 100% correct
ETA 5/8/20: I've been advised that the result was correct, it was the initial interpretation that needed to be withdrawn
Meta? I'd say so!
ETA 5/8/20: I've been advised that the result was correct, it was the initial interpretation that needed to be withdrawn
Meta? I'd say so!
Re: Personal success (Split thread)
Conscientiousness itself is tested psychometrically.
Re: Personal success (Split thread)
You keep snipping this bit
Is it because you have no evidence for your claim
My avatar was a scientific result that was later found to be 'mistaken' - I rarely claim to be 100% correct
ETA 5/8/20: I've been advised that the result was correct, it was the initial interpretation that needed to be withdrawn
Meta? I'd say so!
ETA 5/8/20: I've been advised that the result was correct, it was the initial interpretation that needed to be withdrawn
Meta? I'd say so!
Re: Personal success (Split thread)
Re: Personal success (Split thread)
No, I don't think you have.
My avatar was a scientific result that was later found to be 'mistaken' - I rarely claim to be 100% correct
ETA 5/8/20: I've been advised that the result was correct, it was the initial interpretation that needed to be withdrawn
Meta? I'd say so!
ETA 5/8/20: I've been advised that the result was correct, it was the initial interpretation that needed to be withdrawn
Meta? I'd say so!
Re: Personal success (Split thread)
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3498890/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2747784/
There's loads of research on this, I can keep going until you're satisfied
Re: Personal success (Split thread)
Didn't think you had.sheldrake wrote: ↑Thu Jan 16, 2020 4:48 pmhttps://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3498890/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2747784/
There's loads of research on this, I can keep going until you're satisfied
conscientiousness demonstrated beneficial associations of small-to-medium magnitude with all success outcomes1
Finally, Conscientiousness is unrelated to extrinsic career success (Boudreau et al., 2001), salary and promotions (Seibert & Kraimer, 2001), and hourly wage2
My avatar was a scientific result that was later found to be 'mistaken' - I rarely claim to be 100% correct
ETA 5/8/20: I've been advised that the result was correct, it was the initial interpretation that needed to be withdrawn
Meta? I'd say so!
ETA 5/8/20: I've been advised that the result was correct, it was the initial interpretation that needed to be withdrawn
Meta? I'd say so!
Re: Personal success (Split thread)
From the abstract: -Gfamily wrote: ↑Thu Jan 16, 2020 5:07 pmDidn't think you had.sheldrake wrote: ↑Thu Jan 16, 2020 4:48 pmhttps://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3498890/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2747784/
There's loads of research on this, I can keep going until you're satisfiedThat supports my point.conscientiousness demonstrated beneficial associations of small-to-medium magnitude with all success outcomes1
Finally, Conscientiousness is unrelated to extrinsic career success (Boudreau et al., 2001), salary and promotions (Seibert & Kraimer, 2001), and hourly wage2
The part you have quoted is not the conclusion of the paper linked, it is the conclusion of an older paper the study mentions in a literature review section, it then goes on to critique the methodology.https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2747784/ wrote:Measured concurrently, emotionally stable and conscientious participants reported higher incomes and job satisfaction.
The first paper, from 2012, also contradicts the much study you've just cited.
Re: Personal success (Split thread)
I'm not sure what point you think you're making, but a low to medium correlation is not a high correlation.
My avatar was a scientific result that was later found to be 'mistaken' - I rarely claim to be 100% correct
ETA 5/8/20: I've been advised that the result was correct, it was the initial interpretation that needed to be withdrawn
Meta? I'd say so!
ETA 5/8/20: I've been advised that the result was correct, it was the initial interpretation that needed to be withdrawn
Meta? I'd say so!
Re: Personal success (Split thread)
Also, learned helplessness is a phenomenon that probably has an effect. If you've been ground down by a combination of external factors outside your control, it's going to be far harder to actually develop the go-getting, conscientious-yet-risk-taking personality that might, if you're lucky, make you rich.
Have you considered stupidity as an explanation
Re: Personal success (Split thread)
This is after controlling for family circumstances, trauma, mental illness etc..jimbob wrote: ↑Thu Jan 16, 2020 7:04 pmAlso, learned helplessness is a phenomenon that probably has an effect. If you've been ground down by a combination of external factors outside your control, it's going to be far harder to actually develop the go-getting, conscientious-yet-risk-taking personality that might, if you're lucky, make you rich.
Last edited by sheldrake on Thu Jan 16, 2020 7:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Personal success (Split thread)
OK - you're clearly stuck in that place.
My avatar was a scientific result that was later found to be 'mistaken' - I rarely claim to be 100% correct
ETA 5/8/20: I've been advised that the result was correct, it was the initial interpretation that needed to be withdrawn
Meta? I'd say so!
ETA 5/8/20: I've been advised that the result was correct, it was the initial interpretation that needed to be withdrawn
Meta? I'd say so!
Re: Personal success (Split thread)
There are conflicting studies about whether IQ or Conscientiousness correlate more highly, and I suspect it depends on which other variables you control for. Conscientiousness seems to be more trainable though, and it's important to note that at no point have I said that either are more important than family socioeconomic background.