Democratic Candidate 2020

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Stephanie
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Re: Democratic Candidate 2020

Post by Stephanie » Tue Mar 10, 2020 4:42 pm

dyqik wrote:
Tue Mar 10, 2020 4:18 pm
secret squirrel wrote:
Tue Mar 10, 2020 4:09 pm
dyqik wrote:
Tue Mar 10, 2020 4:05 pm
I see it constantly. Asking for evidence of clearly visible harassment from Sanders supporters is a really bad look for someone who supports Sanders.
I'm saying 'above the background level', which is high across the board.
I haven't seen any significant abuse from Warren, Biden and others' supporters.
I have. I haven't got any to hand, not am I cataloguing it, but it has come up on my timeline. I think like boaf said, it depends on the circles you're in.
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Re: Democratic Candidate 2020

Post by Bird on a Fire » Tue Mar 10, 2020 5:16 pm

dyqik wrote:
Tue Mar 10, 2020 4:39 pm
Bird on a Fire wrote:
Tue Mar 10, 2020 4:31 pm
dyqik wrote:
Tue Mar 10, 2020 4:18 pm


I haven't seen any significant abuse from Warren, Biden and others' supporters.
Somebody put this collection together on reddit, of comments from as single anti-Sanders forum. https://www.reddit.com/r/enoughsanderss ... oments_of/

So it probably depends where you look. If you know a lot of Warren supporters you'll see them getting abused. If you know a lot of Sanders supporters, likewise.
A dedicated forum is very much not what we are talking about. I'm talking about general twitter threads. etc.
Sure, but it does provide examples of the kind of abuse that's out there, without having to go trawling through the whole internet. Unless you seriously think that that kind of posting was 100% restricted to a single forum?

It's the internet. Everyone is abusing everyone else (and there's a lot of self-abuse too). That doesn't excuse it at all - it's abhorrent all round - and it doesn't mean that all groups are equally guilty, either. I don't think any of us have the numbers to support that.

I'm just saying, like Stephanie and secret squirrel, that it's out there too, and if you want to see what it's like there's some stuff you can read.
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Re: Democratic Candidate 2020

Post by lpm » Tue Mar 10, 2020 5:28 pm

But the Sanders vs Warren abuse seems particularly heated? The Sanders vs Biden wars don't seem to have the same vibe.

The original question was on why Warren isn't endorsing Sanders. Even though she's a woman, it might be worth listening to what she has to say: "It’s not just about me. I think there’s a real problem with this online bullying and sort of organised nastiness. And I’m not just talking about ‘who said mean things’, I’m talking about some really ugly stuff that went on."
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Re: Democratic Candidate 2020

Post by Bird on a Fire » Tue Mar 10, 2020 5:35 pm

lpm wrote:
Tue Mar 10, 2020 5:28 pm
But the Sanders vs Warren abuse seems particularly heated? The Sanders vs Biden wars don't seem to have the same vibe.
I've got to say that while I've come across a lot of vocal Warren and Sanders supporters, I haven't really come across any big Biden fans. Everyone seems to accept that he's a bit bumbling with a dodgy track record and middle-of-the-road policies, but hey at least he's electable. It's much easier to have a war when both sides care, rather than one passionate side vs meh?

Plus the sexism, of course.
lpm wrote:
Tue Mar 10, 2020 5:28 pm
The original question was on why Warren isn't endorsing Sanders. Even though she's a woman, it might be worth listening to what she has to say: "It’s not just about me. I think there’s a real problem with this online bullying and sort of organised nastiness. And I’m not just talking about ‘who said mean things’, I’m talking about some really ugly stuff that went on."
Is that Warren on bullying, or Warren specifically on why she isn't endorsing Sanders?

I'm not sure who you're accusing of ignoring women - who has said some really ugly stuff hasn't gone on?
Last edited by Bird on a Fire on Tue Mar 10, 2020 5:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: typos
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Re: Democratic Candidate 2020

Post by dyqik » Tue Mar 10, 2020 5:39 pm

Bird on a Fire wrote:
Tue Mar 10, 2020 5:16 pm
dyqik wrote:
Tue Mar 10, 2020 4:39 pm
Bird on a Fire wrote:
Tue Mar 10, 2020 4:31 pm

Somebody put this collection together on reddit, of comments from as single anti-Sanders forum. https://www.reddit.com/r/enoughsanderss ... oments_of/

So it probably depends where you look. If you know a lot of Warren supporters you'll see them getting abused. If you know a lot of Sanders supporters, likewise.
A dedicated forum is very much not what we are talking about. I'm talking about general twitter threads. etc.
Sure, but it does provide examples of the kind of abuse that's out there, without having to go trawling through the whole internet. Unless you seriously think that that kind of posting was 100% restricted to a single forum?
Of course it's not restricted to a single forum. But that is a self-selected source rather than a general forum.

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Re: Democratic Candidate 2020

Post by Woodchopper » Tue Mar 10, 2020 5:42 pm

Bird on a Fire wrote:
Tue Mar 10, 2020 5:35 pm
lpm wrote:
Tue Mar 10, 2020 5:28 pm
But the Sanders vs Warren abuse seems particularly heated? The Sanders vs Biden wars don't seem to have the same vibe.
I've got to say that while I've come across a lot of vocal Warren and Sanders supporters, I haven't really come across any big Biden fans. Everyone seems to accept that he's a bit bumbling with a dodgy track record and middle-of-the-road policies, but hey at least he's electable. It's much easier to have a war when both sides care, rather than one passionate side vs meh?
I agree with that. Biden supporters I know on Facebook etc tend to be pretty low key. Maybe because they’re older. Their tenth campaign as an adult might be a bit more relaxed than if their first.

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Re: Democratic Candidate 2020

Post by Bird on a Fire » Tue Mar 10, 2020 5:43 pm

dyqik wrote:
Tue Mar 10, 2020 5:39 pm
Bird on a Fire wrote:
Tue Mar 10, 2020 5:16 pm
dyqik wrote:
Tue Mar 10, 2020 4:39 pm

A dedicated forum is very much not what we are talking about. I'm talking about general twitter threads. etc.
Sure, but it does provide examples of the kind of abuse that's out there, without having to go trawling through the whole internet. Unless you seriously think that that kind of posting was 100% restricted to a single forum?
Of course it's not restricted to a single forum. But that is a self-selected source rather than a general forum.
And the only actual source in the discussion so far ;)
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Re: Democratic Candidate 2020

Post by Bird on a Fire » Tue Mar 10, 2020 5:47 pm

Woodchopper wrote:
Tue Mar 10, 2020 5:42 pm
Bird on a Fire wrote:
Tue Mar 10, 2020 5:35 pm
lpm wrote:
Tue Mar 10, 2020 5:28 pm
But the Sanders vs Warren abuse seems particularly heated? The Sanders vs Biden wars don't seem to have the same vibe.
I've got to say that while I've come across a lot of vocal Warren and Sanders supporters, I haven't really come across any big Biden fans. Everyone seems to accept that he's a bit bumbling with a dodgy track record and middle-of-the-road policies, but hey at least he's electable. It's much easier to have a war when both sides care, rather than one passionate side vs meh?
I agree with that. Biden supporters I know on Facebook etc tend to be pretty low key. Maybe because they’re older. Their tenth campaign as an adult might be a bit more relaxed than if their first.
That's true. He's also quite small-c conservative, keen to reign in some of the more egregious bits of recent Republicanism but without promoting any drastic changes that would scare people.

If there were a big fight between proponents of chips vs salad on the side with dinner, Biden is rice. Nobody gets angry about rice, but nobody is that excited either. And at least it isn't dogshit.
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Re: Democratic Candidate 2020

Post by dyqik » Tue Mar 10, 2020 6:18 pm

Bird on a Fire wrote:
Tue Mar 10, 2020 5:43 pm
dyqik wrote:
Tue Mar 10, 2020 5:39 pm
Bird on a Fire wrote:
Tue Mar 10, 2020 5:16 pm

Sure, but it does provide examples of the kind of abuse that's out there, without having to go trawling through the whole internet. Unless you seriously think that that kind of posting was 100% restricted to a single forum?
Of course it's not restricted to a single forum. But that is a self-selected source rather than a general forum.
And the only actual source in the discussion so far ;)
Feel free to visit Twitter.com for a wider view

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Re: Democratic Candidate 2020

Post by Bird on a Fire » Tue Mar 10, 2020 6:27 pm

dyqik wrote:
Tue Mar 10, 2020 6:18 pm
Bird on a Fire wrote:
Tue Mar 10, 2020 5:43 pm
dyqik wrote:
Tue Mar 10, 2020 5:39 pm


Of course it's not restricted to a single forum. But that is a self-selected source rather than a general forum.
And the only actual source in the discussion so far ;)
Feel free to visit Twitter.com for a wider view
Don't be silly. As we all know, everybody sees different things on social media depending on who they follow, what content they engage with, and how black-box algorithms interpret those things.

I'm on twitter quite a lot at the moment, and haven't seen much of anyone getting abused nastily. I also accept that it happens. Not really sure what your problem is?
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Re: Democratic Candidate 2020

Post by Bird on a Fire » Tue Mar 10, 2020 8:38 pm

Maybe Biden's not so boring after all. Some gun fan in a factory he was visiting just challenged his gun reform proposals, and Biden responds "You're full of sh.t!"

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/03/10/joe-bid ... -guns.html

Let's hope the presidential debates are just him saying that to Trump for an hour.
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Re: Democratic Candidate 2020

Post by Bird on a Fire » Tue Mar 10, 2020 8:46 pm

The Hill wrote:Biden replied, "Don't tell me that, pal, or I'm going to go outside with your ass."

"You're working for me, man!" the worker said.

"I'm not working for you," Biden said. "Don't be such a horse's ass."
Take that footage, print TRUMP 2020 on it, broadcast everywhere.
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Re: Democratic Candidate 2020

Post by El Pollo Diablo » Tue Mar 10, 2020 8:50 pm

Bird on a Fire wrote:
Tue Mar 10, 2020 5:35 pm
lpm wrote:
Tue Mar 10, 2020 5:28 pm
The original question was on why Warren isn't endorsing Sanders. Even though she's a woman, it might be worth listening to what she has to say: "It’s not just about me. I think there’s a real problem with this online bullying and sort of organised nastiness. And I’m not just talking about ‘who said mean things’, I’m talking about some really ugly stuff that went on."
Is that Warren on bullying, or Warren specifically on why she isn't endorsing Sanders?
I think that comes from the vox link I posted earlier.
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Re: Democratic Candidate 2020

Post by Bird on a Fire » Tue Mar 10, 2020 9:06 pm

El Pollo Diablo wrote:
Tue Mar 10, 2020 8:50 pm
I think that comes from the vox link I posted earlier.
So it does, thanks. It's a good article - I think I only read to the first advert earlier, then thought it ended.

This seems like a reasonable summary to me:
Roughly 22 percent of Americans use Twitter, a not-so-large percentage of the overall public. But virtually everyone in politics and media uses the platform, so the behavior of what are almost certainly a small fraction of Bernie fans on that platform has an outsized impact on the way that the American elite views Sanders. And that does matter for his campaign.

To understand how this works, it’s worth watching the entirety of Warren’s interview with Maddow on the subject. She starts off by talking about her long friendship with Sanders, how much respect she has for him. And then she pivots to an emotional discussion of online harassment; you can hear that it’s clearly shaped her perception of the race:

In the interview, it’s clear that Sanders’s disavowals of online harassment ring a little hollow in Warren’s ears. Given that the candidate and his staff have appeared on Chapo, you can understand her thinking. It might seem like Sanders is speaking out of both sides of his mouth: vaguely disavowing online anger in public statements while his campaign reaches out and appeals directly to the people purveying it.
It certainly seems plausible that Warren might have endorsed Sanders and that something was holding her back. I chalked it up to pressure from the party establishment but disliking an element of his support base / his dealing with the problem could well also be (part of) the explanation.
Last edited by Bird on a Fire on Tue Mar 10, 2020 9:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Democratic Candidate 2020

Post by Bird on a Fire » Tue Mar 10, 2020 9:16 pm

Also quoting this bit
In the first few primaries this cycle, Sanders cleaned up with Latino voters and Asian voters. He has won outright with young women and young African-Americans, reflecting the fact that age — rather than race or gender — is the biggest determinant of Sanders versus Biden support. It’s simply false to call Sanders a candidate of privileged white men.
as it confirms what I see on my social media. I really haven't seen any lack of women supporting Sanders - but most people I follow are pretty young (friends from when I studied there 7 years ago). Lots of Latin folk in the mix.
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Re: Democratic Candidate 2020

Post by lpm » Wed Mar 11, 2020 12:05 am

Bird on a Fire wrote:
Tue Mar 10, 2020 8:38 pm
Maybe Biden's not so boring after all. Some gun fan in a factory he was visiting just challenged his gun reform proposals, and Biden responds "You're full of sh.t!"

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/03/10/joe-bid ... -guns.html

Let's hope the presidential debates are just him saying that to Trump for an hour.
That's great.

Reminds me of when President Bartlet "accidently" says on a live mike that Ritchie is "a .22 caliber mind in a .357 magnum world." 
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Re: Democratic Candidate 2020

Post by Woodchopper » Wed Mar 11, 2020 7:17 am

Looks like it’s Biden to run against Trump. Difficult to see how Sanders can recover from here.

I’m assuming that most of the hundreds of thousands of votes for Warren and Bloomberg were delivered by post before they dropped out.

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Re: Democratic Candidate 2020

Post by Bird on a Fire » Wed Mar 11, 2020 12:13 pm

Woodchopper wrote:
Wed Mar 11, 2020 7:17 am
Looks like it’s Biden to run against Trump. Difficult to see how Sanders can recover from here.
Yes, the way all the centrist candidates rallied around Biden seems to have given his campaign a lot of momentum - crucially avoiding the risk of a messy brokered convention, according to 538. It's a very impressive comeback.

OTOH, it does feel like a bit of a disappointment from very perspectives.

Biden's climate plans are weaker than the EU's (which are too weak), which kicks the can dangerously down the road unless the USA is engulfed by further massive environmental disasters - not the storms and fires that everyone is used to, but something totally unprecedented.

Sanders was the most promising left-wing candidate in the USA for a long time. It seems that it will continue to be an outlier on things like access to healthcare, workers rights, the environment and so on for at least another generation. Bad for people who live there, obviously, but also could encourage the creeping relaxation of these things in places like Brexit Britain.

Still, he should be able to comfortably beat Trump, as long as he doesn't put too many people off with evidence of his cognitive decline, stops being creepy, and doesn't threaten any more voters with physical violence or challenge them to pushup contests or whatever. Should be easy. We got this.
Woodchopper wrote:
Wed Mar 11, 2020 7:17 am
I’m assuming that most of the hundreds of thousands of votes for Warren and Bloomberg were delivered by post before they dropped out.
It'll be interesting to see how second-choice (etc) votes stack up. I assume that most of the centrist candidates' voters would have Biden as a backup, whereas Warren's will split on age (and possibly class), with the younger and poorer skewing Sanders and the older, better-off for Biden - but that's just a hunch.
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Re: Democratic Candidate 2020

Post by secret squirrel » Wed Mar 11, 2020 12:33 pm

Bird on a Fire wrote:
Wed Mar 11, 2020 12:13 pm
...Still, he should be able to comfortably beat Trump, as long as he doesn't put too many people off with evidence of his cognitive decline, stops being creepy, and doesn't threaten any more voters with physical violence or challenge them to pushup contests or whatever. Should be easy. We got this.
I'm excited for Trump vs Biden. Their debates can be alternating rounds of doing pushups and drawing clocks.

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Re: Democratic Candidate 2020

Post by Bird on a Fire » Wed Mar 11, 2020 12:39 pm

secret squirrel wrote:
Wed Mar 11, 2020 12:33 pm
Bird on a Fire wrote:
Wed Mar 11, 2020 12:13 pm
...Still, he should be able to comfortably beat Trump, as long as he doesn't put too many people off with evidence of his cognitive decline, stops being creepy, and doesn't threaten any more voters with physical violence or challenge them to pushup contests or whatever. Should be easy. We got this.
I'm excited for Trump vs Biden. Their debates can be alternating rounds of doing pushups and drawing clocks.
I doubt Trump can actually do pushups, seeing as he's obese and wears a nappy.

Neither of them could draw a clock.

Suggests narrow victory for Biden.
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Re: Democratic Candidate 2020

Post by secret squirrel » Wed Mar 11, 2020 12:45 pm

Bird on a Fire wrote:
Wed Mar 11, 2020 12:39 pm
secret squirrel wrote:
Wed Mar 11, 2020 12:33 pm
I'm excited for Trump vs Biden. Their debates can be alternating rounds of doing pushups and drawing clocks.
I doubt Trump can actually do pushups, seeing as he's obese and wears a nappy.

Neither of them could draw a clock.

Suggests narrow victory for Biden.
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Re: Democratic Candidate 2020

Post by dyqik » Wed Mar 11, 2020 1:46 pm

Bird on a Fire wrote:
Wed Mar 11, 2020 12:13 pm
Sanders was the most promising left-wing candidate in the USA for a long time. It seems that it will continue to be an outlier on things like access to healthcare, workers rights, the environment and so on for at least another generation. Bad for people who live there, obviously, but also could encourage the creeping relaxation of these things in places like Brexit Britain.
Sanders actual major policies in office would have been what ever he could convince the right wing of the Democratic Party to vote for, as those policies all need legislation to pass the House and Senate to be implemented.

That's assuming he could help win Senate seats in purple and red states, which largely gave Biden their primary votes. No Senate = no policies at all, as the courts are stacked.

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Re: Democratic Candidate 2020

Post by Pucksoppet » Wed Mar 11, 2020 1:54 pm

A quick Internet search has not answered this for me, as searching for "Vice-President" with Biden gets a lot of irrelevant hits.

So, who is Biden going to anoint as Vice-Presidential candidate? Or has someone been anointed already?

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Re: Democratic Candidate 2020

Post by lpm » Wed Mar 11, 2020 2:02 pm

Kamala Harris.

Ticks all the boxes. Not too left wing to scare anyone. Only 55 so likely to survive the pandemic and take over the nomination later this year.
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Re: Democratic Candidate 2020

Post by lpm » Wed Mar 11, 2020 3:17 pm

Doesn't look like Sanders is going to carry on. Why bother trying in FL and AZ next week? He's too old and ill, Covid is ending the rallies and I don't think he'll repeat his treatment of Clinton.
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