Democratic Candidate 2020

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Re: Democratic Candidate 2020

Post by Woodchopper » Mon May 04, 2020 5:42 am

Millennie Al wrote:
Mon May 04, 2020 2:23 am
Let me pose a moral dilemma. Alice and Betty are the two candidates to lead the nation. Alice is a serial killer who has killed 47 people already and if elected will take advantage of her position to kill 94 more. Her politcal policies will result in no particular changes to the nation as she is very much a pragmatist. Betty is personally saintly. Her strong personal values mean she has never hurt anyone, nor stolen as much as a paperclip. Her political policies are such that if elected she will lead the nation into military conflict that will kill 100,000 people. Which will you vote for?
IMHO the only answer is to try to prevent either from taking power. Even if one or other gets elected it would be possible to try to stop them actually doing anything.

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Re: Democratic Candidate 2020

Post by Fishnut » Mon May 04, 2020 9:26 am

lpm wrote:
Sun May 03, 2020 9:03 pm
Why couldn't the Democrats have found a nominee who had zero sexual assault allegations? There were so many people who were standing, there must have been at least one there who understands consent.
Any and every candidate would have been accused of sexual assault.

It's hard why to see why you jumped to conviction, when the allegation is internally inconsistent, the accuser has a track record of writing fictions, and the accuser's 180 degree reversals are odd to say the least.
I don't know where I "jumped to conviction". I may be wrong but I thought conviction was a legal term and Biden hasn't been convicted of anything.

My dad died in 1994, so a year after Tara Reade claims the assault took place. It was the worst day of my life and I feel like it's seared into my memory in vivid detail. But I expect if someone started asking me questions about it, picking my story apart, it would quite quickly start to seem dubious. 'Fortunately' I have external evidence that it happened - I have a death certificate for one, and there'll be receipts from the funeral directors, the announcement in the paper and his cremation and burial records. But if I was just relying on my memory then I have no doubt that the story could be pulled apart in such a way as to "prove" that my dad didn't really die, or didn't die then, or that it wasn't really that big a deal.

For sexual assault it's almost always a private incident with little or no evidence, and certainly not evidence that persists for decades after the fact, so you're reliant on people's fallible memories. The British Psychological Society explains that,
Research suggests that in clinical cases the victim’s memory for the trauma is likely to be fragmented into several key “hotspot” moments (5.21, 5.24, 5.26, 5.27 and 5.35). Hotspots are typically the “worst moments” for the person during the trauma, and are also those points that tend to come back, as intrusive memories. While the hotspots are generally remembered as very vivid and clear, they may be recalled in a jumbled order. At the same time, other parts of the trauma can be more difficult to recall (eg details that were less important to the person at the time). Thus, while some parts of the trauma memory may be recalled consistently and in detail, it is common that other parts will be more vague, have some gaps, in jumbled order and, possibly, contain inaccuracies (5.7, 5.9, 5.17, 5.19, 5.23, 5.28, 5.31, 5.42, 5.44, 5.47, 5.50 and 5.52). [my emphasis]
For Reade, now that people are starting to properly investigate her claims, they are being corroborated. Business Insider has a nice summary of the people who are saying that Reade told them about the incident years before she went public.

False allegations do happen, and maybe Reade is a Russian stooge, but she must be playing a really long game if that's the case.
Bird on a Fire wrote:
Sun May 03, 2020 8:58 pm
It also is strange that nobody seemed to have seen this coming. One of the arguments for Biden was that he's supposed to have been thoroughly vetted and have no skeletons in his closet (hours of video footage of him creeping women out notwithstanding), whereas people were arguing that there must be loads of dirt on Sanders left that didn't come out in 2016.
That's a really good point. I suspect part of it was that when it was 'just' claims of inappropriate touching everyone, including some of the victims, "assumed it was how men behaved" and were brushed off as 'no big deal'.

Going back to the political fallout of this, I really like this piece by Rebecca Traister where she discusses the impact these allegations are going to have on Biden's Vice Presidential nominee, who he's said will be "A Woman". She points out,
The damage often inflicted by sexual power abuses extend far beyond those who have been abused to others who are reliant on those accused of abuse — whether as employees, dependent economically; family members, dependent emotionally and economically; or voters, dependent politically. One of the hallmarks of systemic gender inequity is that women wind up paying for the misdeeds of the more powerful men to whom they are subsidiary, a setup that reinforces men’s ability to perpetuate and profit from abuse.

...make no mistake, if Biden loses, regardless of his running mate, even as feminists are being criticized for hypocrisy in not condemning him more swiftly, it will also be feminists and women who are blamed for his loss, for encouraging an environment in which claims of sexual harm are taken seriously enough to damage a politician.

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Re: Democratic Candidate 2020

Post by lpm » Mon May 04, 2020 12:57 pm

Fishnut wrote:
Mon May 04, 2020 9:26 am
For Reade, now that people are starting to properly investigate her claims, they are being corroborated. Business Insider has a nice summary of the people who are saying that Reade told them about the incident years before she went public.
If so, why not also believe Eva Murry? She has six people confirming she told them about the incident years before she went public. And yet the evidence shows the incident could not possibly have happened.

It seems spectacularly wrong to view this in terms of other #MeToo events, where global power is not at stake. If Biden wins powerful people know they will be facing jail, if Trump wins powerful people have the potential to make billions. There is unparalleled pressure to exploit every allegation and an unlimited budget to finance dirty tricks. It simply can't be seen through the same lens as any other accusation.

If I was suddenly to start praising Trump and supporting his agenda, you'd probably ask questions about the sudden shift. Reversals of opinion are rare in these bipartisan times. So it's odd, to say the least, that someone can condemn Putin consistently, then suddenly reverse into expressing fervent support. It's odd that someone consistently praised Biden across many years, including expressing support for his actions against sexual harassment, then suddenly switched to claiming sexual assault. It's odd that someone claims in April that Biden fired her for not being compliant, but in March gave a different story for her departure, which was different again from the story told in 2019. It's hard to believe someone who has a long track record of lies and stories with internal inconsistencies.
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Re: Democratic Candidate 2020

Post by Fishnut » Mon May 04, 2020 1:25 pm

I've not heard of Eva Murry so did some googling. While admittedly that googling was perfunctory the results suggest that she has only recently come out with her accusation and they were pretty quickly shown to be impossible. As Woodchopper pointed out, fake accusations do occur and so far they've been caught out pretty quickly.
Woodchopper wrote:
Sun May 03, 2020 10:53 pm
False allegations against politicians do happen. From the US over the past couple of years:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the ... -opposite/

https://www.nbcnews.com/think/opinion/p ... cna1000501

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/justic ... ts-n929951

It looks like all the above were fabricated. They are all pretty amateurish though.

Then in the UK there’s Operation Midland
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Midland

Which is not to say that I think that Reade is lying. Just that it’s not easy to draw conclusions.
This differs from Reade who made her first claims a year ago, along with several other women who accused Biden of inappropriate touching. I can understand why she wouldn't come out straight away and say that he sexually assaulted her and why she'd keep it quiet even from people she was close to. Admitting that your boss fingered you non-consensually is pretty even tough now, I can't imagine how hard it would have been in the early 90s. And I could easily see it leaving you bitter that the man who did that to you faces no repercussions and is now potentially going to be the next president. It might even leave you a bit twisted and 'a plague on both your houses' to see the democratic party - the party who are supposed to care about these things - prefer to make you out as a liar than recognise that they're trying to put yet another sexual abuser in the White House.

If it comes out that she's making it up I'll happily admit I'm wrong. And I'll be relieved too. But I see nothing incredible in her story, unfortunately.

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Re: Democratic Candidate 2020

Post by lpm » Mon May 04, 2020 2:00 pm

Fishnut wrote:
Mon May 04, 2020 1:25 pm
This differs from Reade who made her first claims a year ago,
But the claims made a year ago, repeated several times until December 2019, are different from the claims she made in December, which are different from the claims made in March, and different again in April.
I can understand why she wouldn't come out straight away and say that he sexually assaulted her and why she'd keep it quiet even from people she was close to.
She has claimed she kept it secret at the time. And she has also claimed she told two supervisors, her manager and friends.

She claimed she was shunned by the entire office for her accusation.; nobody has any recollection. She has claimed she filed a formal complaint with Senate Personnel; no record has been found.
And I could easily see it leaving you bitter that the man who did that to you faces no repercussions and is now potentially going to be the next president.
She displayed no signs of bitterness until 2019. On the contrary, she expressed praise of Biden, expressed delight at him become VP, expressed support for his anti-harassment initiatives.
If it comes out that she's making it up I'll happily admit I'm wrong. And I'll be relieved too. But I see nothing incredible in her story, unfortunately.
In which story? She has told several versions. There is nothing particularly unbelievable in any of these stories. The problem is the quantity of her stories, not the quality.
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Re: Democratic Candidate 2020

Post by Bird on a Fire » Mon May 04, 2020 4:20 pm

Has anybody got a link (or willingness to paraphrase, for the link-averse) to the substantial discrepancies in Reade's account?

I've been looking through this https://medium.com/@eddiekrassenstein/e ... cb3ee38460, which relies an awful lot on twitter. For instance, liking a few articles about Biden (out of 506 total likes, apparently) is viewed as 'expressing praise' - which it is, but a twitter like weighs a lot less than an on-the-record interview IMHO.

She is unclear as to whether she quit or Biden fired her, which is odd - only one can be the case in a literal sense (if she's alleging something like constructive dismissal it would be better to be up front about that).

She gives different reasons for leaving Washington DC, but it's not unlikely that a major life decision would be informed by multiple motivations.

Her praise for Putin is pretty weird, though, especially following a couple of years of apparently endorsing (again based on retweets) typical US liberal talking points about Russia's interference in US politics and its sh.tty human rights record.

So not an ideal witness, but Fishnut and others have made the point well that people do not have perfect memories for details of events 27 years ago. The core incident does appear to be somewhat corroborated, even if her claims to have escalated a complaint up the chain of command aren't substantiated. And, more problematically, the story is consistent with people's general view of Biden as being creepy and touch-feely around young women, which was widely criticised before Reade made her allegations.

Typically in cases like this other accusers come forward and allege the same kind of behaviour. That doesn't seem to have happened (yet?). So we're left with a single account that seems somewhat plausible, but with details that can't be confirmed and aren't always recalled consistently, from an accuser with some problematic views and online activity that call her reliability into question. It's hard to conclude much either way.

One possibility that occurs to me is that there was an incident of some kind, of the sort many other women have complained about and of which numerous examples are on video - drawn-out, unwanted physical intimacy. I can see how that might create the kernel of an incident which gets embellished in the retelling.

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Re: Democratic Candidate 2020

Post by Woodchopper » Mon May 04, 2020 5:45 pm

If Biden were to step down and withdraw from the race, what would happen?

If we assume that he does so in July before the Democratic National Convention in late August. There it would be like old times and the delegates would vote who they wanted to be the party candidate for President and Vice President.

Sanders, Warren, Bloomberg, Buttigieg and Klobuchar would be in the running. But as far as I recall they could vote for anyone.

Its likely that either Sanders or Warren would face Trump, I expect Warren is more likely as the eventual candidate as majority of delegates would by then be pledged to Biden (no one else is at the moment and he is currently at 42.9%).

That polling there was showed Warren ahead of Trump in the polls, though that was from pre-Covid times.

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Re: Democratic Candidate 2020

Post by dyqik » Mon May 04, 2020 6:53 pm

Woodchopper wrote:
Mon May 04, 2020 5:45 pm
If Biden were to step down and withdraw from the race, what would happen?

If we assume that he does so in July before the Democratic National Convention in late August. There it would be like old times and the delegates would vote who they wanted to be the party candidate for President and Vice President.

Sanders, Warren, Bloomberg, Buttigieg and Klobuchar would be in the running. But as far as I recall they could vote for anyone.

Its likely that either Sanders or Warren would face Trump, I expect Warren is more likely as the eventual candidate as majority of delegates would by then be pledged to Biden (no one else is at the moment and he is currently at 42.9%).

That polling there was showed Warren ahead of Trump in the polls, though that was from pre-Covid times.
Sanders et al have technically lost a chunk of state-wide delegates by withdrawing from the race. However, mostly they have "suspended their campaign" rather than withdrawing outright, and could unsuspend. Biden would lose his statewide delegates in this scenario, and so the mix at the convention would be different to the current delegate count.

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Re: Democratic Candidate 2020

Post by Millennie Al » Tue May 05, 2020 2:15 am

Woodchopper wrote:
Mon May 04, 2020 5:45 pm
If Biden were to step down and withdraw from the race, what would happen?
I suspect that it would result in Trump being re-elected. Such a major change at this late stage would be seen as casting doubt on the ability of the Democratic party to vet and choose their candidate, which would spread to doubt of what might later be found out about whoever ended up being their candidate. There would be the equivalent of the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth who would pop up and make accusations, and the Democrats' denials would be greatly weakened by the perception from the Biden situation that they didn't really know their own candidate, so were just being partisan. This effect is greatly amplified by the fact that American politics really is very partisan, with both sides from time to time doing things which are clearly mainly motivated by opposition ot the other side rather than a desire for truth or to do the right thing.
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Re: Democratic Candidate 2020

Post by Woodchopper » Tue May 05, 2020 8:12 am

Millennie Al wrote:
Tue May 05, 2020 2:15 am
Woodchopper wrote:
Mon May 04, 2020 5:45 pm
If Biden were to step down and withdraw from the race, what would happen?
I suspect that it would result in Trump being re-elected. Such a major change at this late stage would be seen as casting doubt on the ability of the Democratic party to vet and choose their candidate, which would spread to doubt of what might later be found out about whoever ended up being their candidate. There would be the equivalent of the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth who would pop up and make accusations, and the Democrats' denials would be greatly weakened by the perception from the Biden situation that they didn't really know their own candidate, so were just being partisan. This effect is greatly amplified by the fact that American politics really is very partisan, with both sides from time to time doing things which are clearly mainly motivated by opposition ot the other side rather than a desire for truth or to do the right thing.
So basically you're suggesting that whether it was Warren, Sanders or someone else, they'd be hit but an avalanche of spurious allegations, which the public wouldn't ignore as the candidate hadn't been properly vetted.

Maybe.

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Re: Democratic Candidate 2020

Post by Woodchopper » Tue May 05, 2020 8:12 am

dyqik wrote:
Mon May 04, 2020 6:53 pm
Woodchopper wrote:
Mon May 04, 2020 5:45 pm
If Biden were to step down and withdraw from the race, what would happen?

If we assume that he does so in July before the Democratic National Convention in late August. There it would be like old times and the delegates would vote who they wanted to be the party candidate for President and Vice President.

Sanders, Warren, Bloomberg, Buttigieg and Klobuchar would be in the running. But as far as I recall they could vote for anyone.

Its likely that either Sanders or Warren would face Trump, I expect Warren is more likely as the eventual candidate as majority of delegates would by then be pledged to Biden (no one else is at the moment and he is currently at 42.9%).

That polling there was showed Warren ahead of Trump in the polls, though that was from pre-Covid times.
Sanders et al have technically lost a chunk of state-wide delegates by withdrawing from the race. However, mostly they have "suspended their campaign" rather than withdrawing outright, and could unsuspend. Biden would lose his statewide delegates in this scenario, and so the mix at the convention would be different to the current delegate count.
Fair enough.

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Re: Democratic Candidate 2020

Post by Martin_B » Tue May 05, 2020 8:57 am

Woodchopper wrote:
Tue May 05, 2020 8:12 am
Millennie Al wrote:
Tue May 05, 2020 2:15 am
Woodchopper wrote:
Mon May 04, 2020 5:45 pm
If Biden were to step down and withdraw from the race, what would happen?
I suspect that it would result in Trump being re-elected. Such a major change at this late stage would be seen as casting doubt on the ability of the Democratic party to vet and choose their candidate, which would spread to doubt of what might later be found out about whoever ended up being their candidate. There would be the equivalent of the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth who would pop up and make accusations, and the Democrats' denials would be greatly weakened by the perception from the Biden situation that they didn't really know their own candidate, so were just being partisan. This effect is greatly amplified by the fact that American politics really is very partisan, with both sides from time to time doing things which are clearly mainly motivated by opposition ot the other side rather than a desire for truth or to do the right thing.
So basically you're suggesting that whether it was Warren, Sanders or someone else, they'd be hit but an avalanche of spurious allegations, which the public wouldn't ignore as the candidate hadn't been properly vetted.

Maybe.
I think Biden (or if not, Warren, Sanders, etc) will be hit by a lot of Swift Boat Veteran-type organisations which will be small, but curiously well funded and given a lot of air-time on Fox and will have given a lot of screen time on TV, Facebook, etc. This "throw mud early, throw often, and in the minds of enough of the public some of it will stick" tactic seems to work.
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Re: Democratic Candidate 2020

Post by dyqik » Tue May 05, 2020 4:43 pm

Woodchopper wrote:
Tue May 05, 2020 8:12 am
Millennie Al wrote:
Tue May 05, 2020 2:15 am
Woodchopper wrote:
Mon May 04, 2020 5:45 pm
If Biden were to step down and withdraw from the race, what would happen?
I suspect that it would result in Trump being re-elected. Such a major change at this late stage would be seen as casting doubt on the ability of the Democratic party to vet and choose their candidate, which would spread to doubt of what might later be found out about whoever ended up being their candidate. There would be the equivalent of the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth who would pop up and make accusations, and the Democrats' denials would be greatly weakened by the perception from the Biden situation that they didn't really know their own candidate, so were just being partisan. This effect is greatly amplified by the fact that American politics really is very partisan, with both sides from time to time doing things which are clearly mainly motivated by opposition ot the other side rather than a desire for truth or to do the right thing.
So basically you're suggesting that whether it was Warren, Sanders or someone else, they'd be hit but an avalanche of spurious allegations, which the public wouldn't ignore as the candidate hadn't been properly vetted.

Maybe.
There's already been a (obviously fake because of who was promoting it) sexual assault allegation against Warren.

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Re: Democratic Candidate 2020

Post by FlammableFlower » Tue May 05, 2020 7:06 pm

Martin_B wrote:
Tue May 05, 2020 8:57 am
Woodchopper wrote:
Tue May 05, 2020 8:12 am
Millennie Al wrote:
Tue May 05, 2020 2:15 am


I suspect that it would result in Trump being re-elected. Such a major change at this late stage would be seen as casting doubt on the ability of the Democratic party to vet and choose their candidate, which would spread to doubt of what might later be found out about whoever ended up being their candidate. There would be the equivalent of the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth who would pop up and make accusations, and the Democrats' denials would be greatly weakened by the perception from the Biden situation that they didn't really know their own candidate, so were just being partisan. This effect is greatly amplified by the fact that American politics really is very partisan, with both sides from time to time doing things which are clearly mainly motivated by opposition ot the other side rather than a desire for truth or to do the right thing.
So basically you're suggesting that whether it was Warren, Sanders or someone else, they'd be hit but an avalanche of spurious allegations, which the public wouldn't ignore as the candidate hadn't been properly vetted.

Maybe.
I think Biden (or if not, Warren, Sanders, etc) will be hit by a lot of Swift Boat Veteran-type organisations which will be small, but curiously well funded and given a lot of air-time on Fox and will have given a lot of screen time on TV, Facebook, etc. This "throw mud early, throw often, and in the minds of enough of the public some of it will stick" tactic seems to work.
Yeah. I guess it's because frequently people don't like bring told what they believed was wrong (or worse, fake) when it was something that chimed with their views and so they are unlikely to change their view. If you sling mud around, as long as it gets taken up by even a few then you know that the odds are you'll get more people anti- your opponent than annoyed with you, so it's a win.

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Re: Democratic Candidate 2020

Post by Fishnut » Tue May 05, 2020 8:42 pm

FlammableFlower wrote:
Tue May 05, 2020 7:06 pm
If you sling mud around, as long as it gets taken up by even a few then you know that the odds are you'll get more people anti- your opponent than annoyed with you, so it's a win.
I'm reminded of a bit from The West Wing (season 7, episode 6) where they're discussing using 'dirty' tactics and one of the campaign consultants explains how she got her "dodgy" but progressive candidate to win against a republican,
We hit [our opponent] first with everything we could find. By the time he hit back, the voters thought it was just another ugly campaign; a pox on both our houses.

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Re: Democratic Candidate 2020

Post by Woodchopper » Wed May 06, 2020 5:12 am

Fishnut wrote:
Tue May 05, 2020 8:42 pm
FlammableFlower wrote:
Tue May 05, 2020 7:06 pm
If you sling mud around, as long as it gets taken up by even a few then you know that the odds are you'll get more people anti- your opponent than annoyed with you, so it's a win.
I'm reminded of a bit from The West Wing (season 7, episode 6) where they're discussing using 'dirty' tactics and one of the campaign consultants explains how she got her "dodgy" but progressive candidate to win against a republican,
We hit [our opponent] first with everything we could find. By the time he hit back, the voters thought it was just another ugly campaign; a pox on both our houses.
That though is exactly what Trump wants. He is the ugly candidate. An impression that it’s another ugly campaign flatters him.

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Re: Democratic Candidate 2020

Post by Bird on a Fire » Wed May 06, 2020 1:33 pm

Also, Trump has already been hit with everything. There's really nothing left to hit him with that he hasn't already shrugged off repeatedly. His base are not shifting position - what the Dems need to do is have a candidate people really want to turn out to vote for.

Whoops.

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Re: Democratic Candidate 2020

Post by lpm » Wed May 06, 2020 1:46 pm

Which is why they chose Biden - people really want to turn out to vote for him.

He might not be my most enthusiastic choice, nor is he twitter's, but he seems very popular with a solid coalition of moderates, activists, minorities, Christians, women, urban, suburban, rural etc. He's ahead of Trump pretty convincingly in key states.
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Re: Democratic Candidate 2020

Post by Woodchopper » Wed May 06, 2020 1:54 pm

lpm wrote:
Wed May 06, 2020 1:46 pm
Which is why they chose Biden - people really want to turn out to vote for him.

He might not be my most enthusiastic choice, nor is he twitter's, but he seems very popular with a solid coalition of moderates, activists, minorities, Christians, women, urban, suburban, rural etc. He's ahead of Trump pretty convincingly in key states.
Yes, Biden is well ahead in the polling, even looking close in Texas.

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Re: Democratic Candidate 2020

Post by Bird on a Fire » Thu May 07, 2020 11:41 am

Yes, the polls are looking good for the Democrats - even better than in 2016. This really should be easy, and I hope it goes without saying that I hope Biden wins, but I'm finding it really hard to relax.

As the 538 article suggests, people aren't really estimating turnout yet. A lot of people are saying they would vote D if they go, but will they?

Will incumbent Republicans use covid as an excuse to enhance voter suppression? (Obviously that would be inconsistent with what they're currently saying, but that's never stopped them before)

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Re: Democratic Candidate 2020

Post by Fishnut » Thu May 07, 2020 12:37 pm

Bird on a Fire wrote:
Thu May 07, 2020 11:41 am
Will incumbent Republicans use covid as an excuse to enhance voter suppression? (Obviously that would be inconsistent with what they're currently saying, but that's never stopped them before)
The Republicans tried that in Wisconsin and it didn't work out well. But it's a big - and legitimate - fear. I believe there's some attempts to get provisions on the next coronavirus support bill to ensure that the election is safe (increasing postal voting options, increasing early voting capabilities, providing PPE for polling station volunteers etc) but whether or not it'll be successful who knows.

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Re: Democratic Candidate 2020

Post by Gfamily » Thu May 07, 2020 12:41 pm

Fishnut wrote:
Thu May 07, 2020 12:37 pm
Bird on a Fire wrote:
Thu May 07, 2020 11:41 am
Will incumbent Republicans use covid as an excuse to enhance voter suppression? (Obviously that would be inconsistent with what they're currently saying, but that's never stopped them before)
The Republicans tried that in Wisconsin and it didn't work out well. But it's a big - and legitimate - fear. I believe there's some attempts to get provisions on the next coronavirus support bill to ensure that the election is safe (increasing postal voting options, increasing early voting capabilities, providing PPE for polling station volunteers etc) but whether or not it'll be successful who knows.
Of course, this attempt to include voter protection will be spun as 'do nothing Dems blocking Corona support'.
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Re: Democratic Candidate 2020

Post by lpm » Thu May 07, 2020 4:29 pm

Why can't just say "I believe her" when it comes to US politics:

https://www.rawstory.com/2020/05/woman- ... er-to-lie/
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Re: Democratic Candidate 2020

Post by dyqik » Thu May 07, 2020 6:00 pm

lpm wrote:
Thu May 07, 2020 4:29 pm
Why can't just say "I believe her" when it comes to US politics:

https://www.rawstory.com/2020/05/woman- ... er-to-lie/
And note that these two (Wohl and Burkman) are complete clowns at this game. I'm not sure whether they keep doing it because people on the right really are that stupid, or because it suits the serious people on the right to have Americans believe that all accusations of anything might be made up by the opposition, and all accusers about anything are paid operatives.

That's probably not an xor.

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Re: Democratic Candidate 2020

Post by Stranger Mouse » Thu May 07, 2020 7:55 pm

DOJ dropping charges against Flynn

Transparently corrupt
A caterpillar does all the work but the butterfly gets all the publicity.

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