Democratic Candidate 2020

Discussions about serious topics, for serious people
User avatar
Bird on a Fire
Catbabel
Posts: 855
Joined: Fri Oct 11, 2019 5:05 pm
Location: with the birds

Re: Democratic Candidate 2020

Post by Bird on a Fire » Wed Feb 12, 2020 10:14 pm

plodder wrote:
Wed Feb 12, 2020 9:56 pm
Bird on a Fire wrote:
Wed Feb 12, 2020 8:54 pm
The US left needs to strike hard and fast to put systems in place that it would be hard for subsequent administrations to undo, which means being bold as well as having a good strategy.
f.ck all that stuff. They just need to do what the republicans do: focus on winning.
Nah. They can win this year quite happily, and without having to resort to the fraudy stuff Republicans do. Trump has lost support since 2016, when he lost the popular vote. Dems just need to find anyone the anti-Trumps will show up for in numbers.

A much more interesting question is what they should do with a win.
"Ecology without socialism is just gardening" - Chico Mendes

User avatar
Bird on a Fire
Catbabel
Posts: 855
Joined: Fri Oct 11, 2019 5:05 pm
Location: with the birds

Re: Democratic Candidate 2020

Post by Bird on a Fire » Wed Feb 12, 2020 10:16 pm

plodder wrote:
Wed Feb 12, 2020 9:54 pm
Bird on a Fire wrote:
Wed Feb 12, 2020 8:08 pm
Trump will bully the sh.t out of whoever gets the nomination. Sanders seems pretty robust.
Robust? He'll get angry and frustrated exactly like the guy in Curb Your Enthusiasm and he'll become a laughing stock for enough voters to swing it.
Come on! You know you want to see those two having debates! It'll be like two old uncles bickering at Christmas, one of them with quite bad dementia.
"Ecology without socialism is just gardening" - Chico Mendes

User avatar
dyqik
Dorkwood
Posts: 1256
Joined: Wed Sep 25, 2019 4:19 pm
Location: Masshole
Contact:

Re: Democratic Candidate 2020

Post by dyqik » Wed Feb 12, 2020 10:42 pm

Bird on a Fire wrote:
Wed Feb 12, 2020 10:14 pm
plodder wrote:
Wed Feb 12, 2020 9:56 pm
Bird on a Fire wrote:
Wed Feb 12, 2020 8:54 pm
The US left needs to strike hard and fast to put systems in place that it would be hard for subsequent administrations to undo, which means being bold as well as having a good strategy.
f.ck all that stuff. They just need to do what the republicans do: focus on winning.
Nah. They can win this year quite happily, and without having to resort to the fraudy stuff Republicans do. Trump has lost support since 2016, when he lost the popular vote. Dems just need to find anyone the anti-Trumps will show up for in numbers.

A much more interesting question is what they should do with a win.
That question depends on taking the Senate. Probably by several seats, given Manchin etc.

User avatar
bolo
Clardic Fug
Posts: 212
Joined: Mon Nov 11, 2019 1:17 pm
Location: Washington DC

Re: Democratic Candidate 2020

Post by bolo » Thu Feb 13, 2020 1:09 am

More than several, given the filibuster.

secret squirrel
Stargoon
Posts: 118
Joined: Wed Nov 13, 2019 12:42 pm

Re: Democratic Candidate 2020

Post by secret squirrel » Thu Feb 13, 2020 2:21 am

The way I see it, America needs a radical change, and quickly because things like climate change will not wait. The fear with Sanders is that he won't be able to get things done due to lack of bipartisan appeal and lack of support from his own (nominally) party operators. This is a legitimate concern, but to focus on it is to overlook the fact that centrist Democrats have a terrible record, not only because they often don't win, but because they've given up so much ideological ground since the 80s that even when they do win they act like Republicans from a few years before. To the point where when they (barely) implement Republican ideas they chalk it up as a win.

Of course, the Republicans also carry a lot of blame, because they've reached parody levels of villainy, and have shown absolute contempt for their country's democratic institutions. But they are what they are, and any Democratic administration will have to work around them. I say 'around' and not 'with', because, despite the 'West Wing' fantasies of various Democrats, the idea of doing deals with Republicans to further a progressive agenda has been revealed as hopelessly naive.

This is where Sanders comes in. He has a clear alternative vision for America. He has built a committed grassroots movement. He has inspired a huge number of people, particularly young people, who are tired of the political status quo to donate their time and money to his campaign. His aura of sincerity lets him tap into demographics that other Democrats do not (e.g. the Joe Rogan chud diaspora). Remember how when Trump won the alt-right were empowered around the country? Well imagine that except instead of neo-nazis it's people who care about the environment and sane health care policy.

Now, a Sanders presidency is just the beginning, because the Republicans and right wing Democrats will still exist in their obstructive ways, and the ultra-wealthy and the corporations will still have all their usual tools at their disposal. But this highlights the importance of grassroots support. So, as a progressive, vote for Sanders in the primary, vote for him in the main event, and then be prepared to protest, be prepared to strike, and be prepared to riot to get his and your agenda through. It will be hard, but it is necessary.

Herainestold
Clardic Fug
Posts: 180
Joined: Mon Nov 25, 2019 1:23 pm

Re: Democratic Candidate 2020

Post by Herainestold » Thu Feb 13, 2020 2:53 am

Sanders should take a page from Warren's book and pledge to investigate and prosecute Trump and all his enabling minions when he is in power.

plodder
Catbabel
Posts: 634
Joined: Mon Nov 11, 2019 1:50 pm

Re: Democratic Candidate 2020

Post by plodder » Thu Feb 13, 2020 7:12 am

Or they should reassert the independence of the judiciary.

User avatar
Bird on a Fire
Catbabel
Posts: 855
Joined: Fri Oct 11, 2019 5:05 pm
Location: with the birds

Re: Democratic Candidate 2020

Post by Bird on a Fire » Thu Feb 13, 2020 9:56 am

plodder wrote:
Thu Feb 13, 2020 7:12 am
Or they should reassert the independence of the judiciary.
Indeed. I think there are already quite a few investigations of Trump and his cronies underway, and doubtless more will start once he loses the protection the presidency affords. I have little doubt he'll spend most of the rest of his sundown years in prison, unless they Epstein him.

I don't think the President should be saying who's getting investigated (and I don't think they should be able to pardon people either).
"Ecology without socialism is just gardening" - Chico Mendes

User avatar
Bird on a Fire
Catbabel
Posts: 855
Joined: Fri Oct 11, 2019 5:05 pm
Location: with the birds

Re: Democratic Candidate 2020

Post by Bird on a Fire » Thu Feb 13, 2020 9:59 am

Another hope I have for a Sanders presidency is that he'd give up on the disastrous "war on drugs", which has ruined so many lives not just in the USA but especially in Latin America. People don't drive after dark round my wife's hometown because of the cartels, and it's recreational drugs for personal use that is their bread and butter. It's daft and tragic.
"Ecology without socialism is just gardening" - Chico Mendes

plodder
Catbabel
Posts: 634
Joined: Mon Nov 11, 2019 1:50 pm

Re: Democratic Candidate 2020

Post by plodder » Thu Feb 13, 2020 10:03 am

It's middle age, it must be. I just want them to stop Trump from getting a second term. Sod all the happy stuff - it never happens unless there's civil disobedience, and even then it takes decades. But you certainly won't get it from the government, who are tangled in a huge knot of compromises.

User avatar
Bird on a Fire
Catbabel
Posts: 855
Joined: Fri Oct 11, 2019 5:05 pm
Location: with the birds

Re: Democratic Candidate 2020

Post by Bird on a Fire » Thu Feb 13, 2020 10:07 am

I think Sanders knows a thing or two about organising civil disobedience. It could be part of his presidential strategy if the Republicans keep blocking democracy.

Sorry to hear about your dwindling capacity for hope, though :(
"Ecology without socialism is just gardening" - Chico Mendes

plodder
Catbabel
Posts: 634
Joined: Mon Nov 11, 2019 1:50 pm

Re: Democratic Candidate 2020

Post by plodder » Thu Feb 13, 2020 10:09 am

I think my lack of hope that the government will do amazing progressive things is based an approx half a lifetime watching governments do exactly not that.

More importantly, the more Sanders acts like a spoilt hippy, the more closet rednecks will vote Trump. There are loads and loads of closet rednecks. Amazingly, many of the same people are also closet lefties, and they need love from the Democrats.

secret squirrel
Stargoon
Posts: 118
Joined: Wed Nov 13, 2019 12:42 pm

Re: Democratic Candidate 2020

Post by secret squirrel » Thu Feb 13, 2020 12:40 pm

plodder wrote:
Thu Feb 13, 2020 10:09 am
I think my lack of hope that the government will do amazing progressive things is based an approx half a lifetime watching governments do exactly not that.

More importantly, the more Sanders acts like a spoilt hippy, the more closet rednecks will vote Trump. There are loads and loads of closet rednecks. Amazingly, many of the same people are also closet lefties, and they need love from the Democrats.
I don't see Sanders as acting like a spoilt hippy, so we should be good. Actually, I think Sanders appeals to the demographic you seem to be talking about the most out of all the Democratic front-runners. See e.g. the Joe Rogan (kind of) endorsement.

plodder
Catbabel
Posts: 634
Joined: Mon Nov 11, 2019 1:50 pm

Re: Democratic Candidate 2020

Post by plodder » Thu Feb 13, 2020 12:49 pm

Well, OK. I worry that he looks like a cranky old weirdo who wouldn't want to own a pick-up truck.

User avatar
jimbob
Snowbonk
Posts: 474
Joined: Mon Nov 11, 2019 4:04 pm
Location: High Peak/Manchester

Re: Democratic Candidate 2020

Post by jimbob » Thu Feb 13, 2020 10:31 pm

plodder wrote:
Thu Feb 13, 2020 10:03 am
It's middle age, it must be. I just want them to stop Trump from getting a second term. Sod all the happy stuff - it never happens unless there's civil disobedience, and even then it takes decades. But you certainly won't get it from the government, who are tangled in a huge knot of compromises.
Yup.

Win the election THEN start shifting the playing field.

I like Warren.

Alternatively someone who is younger then Prince Charles might be an idea. After all, Trump is going to be in bad physical shape by November.

Biden is too gaffe prone.
Sanders is too risky - and there are questions about bernie-bots and where they come from.
Bird on a Fire wrote:
Wed Feb 12, 2020 10:16 pm
plodder wrote:
Wed Feb 12, 2020 9:54 pm
Bird on a Fire wrote:
Wed Feb 12, 2020 8:08 pm
Trump will bully the sh.t out of whoever gets the nomination. Sanders seems pretty robust.
Robust? He'll get angry and frustrated exactly like the guy in Curb Your Enthusiasm and he'll become a laughing stock for enough voters to swing it.
Come on! You know you want to see those two having debates! It'll be like two old uncles bickering at Christmas, one of them with quite bad dementia.
yup - that also
Have you considered stupidity as an explanation

Herainestold
Clardic Fug
Posts: 180
Joined: Mon Nov 25, 2019 1:23 pm

Re: Democratic Candidate 2020

Post by Herainestold » Fri Feb 14, 2020 12:03 am

plodder wrote:
Thu Feb 13, 2020 12:49 pm
Well, OK. I worry that he looks like a cranky old weirdo who wouldn't want to own a pick-up truck.
He's not the messiah. He's a cranky old weirdo.

I wonder if he will ban pickup trucks.

Squeak
Stargoon
Posts: 120
Joined: Tue Dec 03, 2019 6:27 am

Re: Democratic Candidate 2020

Post by Squeak » Fri Feb 14, 2020 12:56 am

I rather wanted to see a Warren-Buttigieg ticket, though it was never realistic, even before Warren's poor performance in the first two primaries. It would have been a lily-white ticket but it would have comprised two intelligent, thoughtful people with some willingness to build a coalition. Buttigieg is politically to right of me but then, so is most of America. And that pairing would have set up Buttigieg nicely for a future presidential run.

A combination of a woman + a gay man would, I think, play quite well against Trump's bullying. He's very good at baiting men into chest-thumping displays, which he tends to win through sheer aggression, but I don't think it would work nearly so well on either Warren or Buttigieg. I think the Dems probably need to have a presidential candidate who's not a straight, white, male, career politician (with the resulting baggage that entails) for this election. Sanders stands out as being a proud socialist and Jew, so is still outside the usual presidential caste but still has all that baggage.

Then again, of course I would like the wonkish candidates who do things like cost their plans and think through consequences.

secret squirrel
Stargoon
Posts: 118
Joined: Wed Nov 13, 2019 12:42 pm

Re: Democratic Candidate 2020

Post by secret squirrel » Fri Feb 14, 2020 1:15 am

Buttigieg is bad though.

Herainestold
Clardic Fug
Posts: 180
Joined: Mon Nov 25, 2019 1:23 pm

Re: Democratic Candidate 2020

Post by Herainestold » Fri Feb 14, 2020 2:20 am

Sanders isn't stealth enough. He will attract the Koch Bros and his being an open socialist will engage middle america to stay home or even vote for Trump. Warren would be a better choice as she is fairly left but appears to be more of a centrist.

From a foreign policy point of view he would be good, a left isolationist as opposed to Trump's right isolationism. Trumps re-election would have a silver lining for non-USAians, as Americas power and influence in the world is waning quickly under his term.

secret squirrel
Stargoon
Posts: 118
Joined: Wed Nov 13, 2019 12:42 pm

Re: Democratic Candidate 2020

Post by secret squirrel » Fri Feb 14, 2020 2:30 am

Herainestold wrote:
Fri Feb 14, 2020 2:20 am
Sanders isn't stealth enough. He will attract the Koch Bros and his being an open socialist will engage middle america to stay home or even vote for Trump. Warren would be a better choice as she is fairly left but appears to be more of a centrist.
The polling data says otherwise though. It can be wrong of course, but it's usually a pretty good indicator. Sanders loses some support from 'moderates', but he gains support from elsewhere. The idea that picking an apparent centrist is a safe play for the Democrats isn't supported by history.

User avatar
Woodchopper
Catbabel
Posts: 610
Joined: Sat Oct 12, 2019 9:05 am

Re: Democratic Candidate 2020

Post by Woodchopper » Fri Feb 14, 2020 5:40 am

secret squirrel wrote:
Fri Feb 14, 2020 2:30 am
Herainestold wrote:
Fri Feb 14, 2020 2:20 am
Sanders isn't stealth enough. He will attract the Koch Bros and his being an open socialist will engage middle america to stay home or even vote for Trump. Warren would be a better choice as she is fairly left but appears to be more of a centrist.
The polling data says otherwise though. It can be wrong of course, but it's usually a pretty good indicator. Sanders loses some support from 'moderates', but he gains support from elsewhere. The idea that picking an apparent centrist is a safe play for the Democrats isn't supported by history.
In terms of history you're going to have to go back 44 years for the last non-centrist Democrat who won a presidential election.

secret squirrel
Stargoon
Posts: 118
Joined: Wed Nov 13, 2019 12:42 pm

Re: Democratic Candidate 2020

Post by secret squirrel » Fri Feb 14, 2020 7:24 am

Woodchopper wrote:
Fri Feb 14, 2020 5:40 am
In terms of history you're going to have to go back 44 years for the last non-centrist Democrat who won a presidential election.
And how many left-leaning candidates have they put forward? Obama won as a progressive, but governed at the center right, contributing much to the disillusion of many of the people he inspired to engage with politics while campaigning, and potentially to the election of Trump.

The Republicans have been pursuing a truly radical program since the 80s, much to the detriment of ordinary people in their country. Far from holding the center, the Democrats, as a block - individuals can be exceptions, have retreated from traditional pro-Labour positions, and offered no real counter-narrative to the Republican story that free-market economics is basically the way forward, despite the copious evidence that this is rubbish (even leaving aside climate change). Basically, the Democrats have put forward 'centrists' who would have been described as right-leaning a few years before, and who often lose anyway. Even so, the Democrats have allowed themselves to be painted as out of control far-left by the Republican media apparatus. Indeed, far from countering this narrative, the DNC tacitly endorses the nonsense by worrying about whether they've gone too far left, and criticizing the own moderate left-leaners. This is not a 'safe' strategy, because at best it's slower defeat.

With Sanders the Democratic party has, not only a real opportunity to win in the short term, but also to reverse the trend of the last 40 years and retake the actual center ground which is rapidly retreating into the distance.

plodder
Catbabel
Posts: 634
Joined: Mon Nov 11, 2019 1:50 pm

Re: Democratic Candidate 2020

Post by plodder » Fri Feb 14, 2020 9:46 am

secret squirrel wrote:
Fri Feb 14, 2020 7:24 am

And how many left-leaning candidates have they put forward? Obama won as a progressive, but governed at the center right, contributing much to the disillusion of many of the people he inspired to engage with politics while campaigning, and potentially to the election of Trump.
Well, whose fault is that? People who genuinely think that a president will be able to enact radical change are kidding themselves. The best you can hope for is someone not hopelessly corrupt and compromised. That ain't how change works and I'm constantly amazed that grown ups think it's as simple as putting a cross in a box.

Look at the efforts Cummings is going to in order to get what he wants. Years of planning and work, and he isn't burdened by the complexities of a grass-roots movement. Look how easily Bannon (the other great revolutionary of the last ten years, even if he is a c.nt) was cast aside. Proper actual structural change needs proper actual grassroots movements that proper actual people care about and understand and contribute to.

secret squirrel
Stargoon
Posts: 118
Joined: Wed Nov 13, 2019 12:42 pm

Re: Democratic Candidate 2020

Post by secret squirrel » Fri Feb 14, 2020 10:42 am

plodder wrote:
Fri Feb 14, 2020 9:46 am
secret squirrel wrote:
Fri Feb 14, 2020 7:24 am

And how many left-leaning candidates have they put forward? Obama won as a progressive, but governed at the center right, contributing much to the disillusion of many of the people he inspired to engage with politics while campaigning, and potentially to the election of Trump.
Well, whose fault is that? People who genuinely think that a president will be able to enact radical change are kidding themselves. The best you can hope for is someone not hopelessly corrupt and compromised. That ain't how change works and I'm constantly amazed that grown ups think it's as simple as putting a cross in a box...
That is what I said earlier in this very thread though. Getting a sympathetic president is the first step. Then you continue organize and pursue direct action to get the agenda through. This is why Sanders pledges to be the 'organizer in chief'. Incredibly, you are not the first person to have thought of this.

Edit: Obama actually told his grassroots movement to disband when he got elected. This is why people should vote for leaders who can inspire mass movements, and who are actually ideologically committed to change. People like Bernie.
Last edited by secret squirrel on Fri Feb 14, 2020 10:46 am, edited 1 time in total.

plodder
Catbabel
Posts: 634
Joined: Mon Nov 11, 2019 1:50 pm

Re: Democratic Candidate 2020

Post by plodder » Fri Feb 14, 2020 10:46 am

"organiser in chief" my arse. That's exactly not how it works.

Post Reply