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Literally everyone who lives there will care, you utter cretin. Trying to rewrite borders to what they were more than three hundred years ago, against the wishes of the people that live there, is utterly insane. And not the done thing at all.purplehaze wrote: ↑Sat Feb 01, 2020 12:11 pmGibraltar. What happens next? It will quietly be absorbed back into Spain, no one will care.
That post was over two years ago, can we stick to the topic on this one? (and generally please hold back on the insults, it's totally possible to be forceful without calling people names half the time)EACLucifer wrote: ↑Wed Nov 23, 2022 10:16 amLiterally everyone who lives there will care, you utter cretin. Trying to rewrite borders to what they were more than three hundred years ago, against the wishes of the people that live there, is utterly insane. And not the done thing at all.purplehaze wrote: ↑Sat Feb 01, 2020 12:11 pmGibraltar. What happens next? It will quietly be absorbed back into Spain, no one will care.
I think the SNP need to get an overall majority in Holyrood (which they're close to, but critically do not have)... then the UK government can't exactly turn down an Indie Ref request whilst also claiming to support the UN charter which includes the right to self determination.Formerly AvP wrote: ↑Wed Nov 23, 2022 11:36 amNicola apparently on live stream
https://twitter.com/theSNP/status/1595379476422164480
My suspicion is that it was always clear that the Supreme Court would say 'no' (Nicola is a lawyer by background) and then the SNP moves to plan B, using the election as a vehicle.
I thought she spoke very well.Formerly AvP wrote: ↑Wed Nov 23, 2022 11:36 amNicola apparently on live stream
https://twitter.com/theSNP/status/1595379476422164480
My suspicion is that it was always clear that the Supreme Court would say 'no' (Nicola is a lawyer by background) and then the SNP moves to plan B, using the election as a vehicle.
So the usual pie in the sky, then - there's no way Spain agrees to the precedent of a territory breaking away from a country against the wishes of the national government being in the EU, for reasons obvious to everyone including Sturgeon.
That's taking it a bit far, Nicola. You had a referendum pretty recently and lost it. You were told it was a once in a generation chance. You could have thought carefully about it and chosen to have it a bit later. The next generation may well ask for and get another chance, because you were told it was a once in a generation chance. The question is not closed for the foreseeable, just closed for the immediate present, because you had your chance in the present.Formerly AvP wrote: ↑Wed Nov 23, 2022 11:56 am...that the understanding that Scotland was in a voluntary association with the UK no longer applied. ...
I'd agree with all of this, but I'd also agree with a requirement for a referendum to occur after as many of the details as possible have been worked out, and if that means it takes two referenda, then it means two referenda. It would have saved a lot of trouble with Brexit, for starters.IvanV wrote: ↑Wed Nov 23, 2022 12:32 pmThat's taking it a bit far, Nicola. You had a referendum pretty recently and lost it. You were told it was a once in a generation chance. You could have thought carefully about it and chosen to have it a bit later. The next generation may well ask for and get another chance, because you were told it was a once in a generation chance. The question is not closed for the foreseeable, just closed for the immediate present, because you had your chance in the present.Formerly AvP wrote: ↑Wed Nov 23, 2022 11:56 am...that the understanding that Scotland was in a voluntary association with the UK no longer applied. ...
I don't think it is a necessary condition of an association being voluntary that the exit party can demand referendums often, or at their own convenience. That would not be a democratically good way to settle the question. It increases the chance of random fluctuation leading to a result that is regretted shortly afterwards. Now when did that come up recently in a slightly different situation? At most once in a generation seems a reasonable rule.
The SC also held that the right to self determination doesn't apply to Scotland. See paras 84 to 91 of the judgment.TopBadger wrote: ↑Wed Nov 23, 2022 11:44 amI think the SNP need to get an overall majority in Holyrood (which they're close to, but critically do not have)... then the UK government can't exactly turn down an Indie Ref request whilst also claiming to support the UN charter which includes the right to self determination.Formerly AvP wrote: ↑Wed Nov 23, 2022 11:36 amNicola apparently on live stream
https://twitter.com/theSNP/status/1595379476422164480
My suspicion is that it was always clear that the Supreme Court would say 'no' (Nicola is a lawyer by background) and then the SNP moves to plan B, using the election as a vehicle.
In fairness I think her background as First Minister of Scotland and leader of the SNP, and the fact that she isn't a total idiot (even if you disagree with/dislike her) and will probably have taken careful legal advice, is probably more relevant than her background as a solicitor.Formerly AvP wrote: ↑Wed Nov 23, 2022 11:36 amNicola apparently on live stream
https://twitter.com/theSNP/status/1595379476422164480
My suspicion is that it was always clear that the Supreme Court would say 'no' (Nicola is a lawyer by background) and then the SNP moves to plan B, using the election as a vehicle.
I just read that and I don’t think they did write that. The judgment just concludes that the Scotland Act doesn’t breech the right to self-determination set out in the UN Charter.discovolante wrote: ↑Wed Nov 23, 2022 1:08 pmThe SC also held that the right to self determination doesn't apply to Scotland. See paras 84 to 91 of the judgment.TopBadger wrote: ↑Wed Nov 23, 2022 11:44 amI think the SNP need to get an overall majority in Holyrood (which they're close to, but critically do not have)... then the UK government can't exactly turn down an Indie Ref request whilst also claiming to support the UN charter which includes the right to self determination.Formerly AvP wrote: ↑Wed Nov 23, 2022 11:36 amNicola apparently on live stream
https://twitter.com/theSNP/status/1595379476422164480
My suspicion is that it was always clear that the Supreme Court would say 'no' (Nicola is a lawyer by background) and then the SNP moves to plan B, using the election as a vehicle.
It depends so much on what the terms are that I can't really answer that.discovolante wrote: ↑Wed Nov 23, 2022 1:25 pmI do wonder how many people who think there should be another referendum, don't actively want the outcome to be for Scotland to be independent (whether that's pro union, undecided or anywhere in between), and vice versa. Anyone? Would be interested go know.
That's not surprising, because international arrangements on self-determination are only applicable in very limited cases. They tends to be conditional on there being actual suffering as a result of being unable to escape an oppressive regime, as well as being definable in both ethnic and geographic terms. So the Kosovars would have had a self-determination claim, but not the Catalans or Corsicans.discovolante wrote: ↑Wed Nov 23, 2022 1:08 pmThe SC also held that the right to self determination doesn't apply to Scotland. See paras 84 to 91 of the judgment.
Hm, I read it to mean both. The AG made two submissions against the SNP (para 86, sorry on phone so copy and paste is a faff), and the SC addressed both of them.Woodchopper wrote: ↑Wed Nov 23, 2022 1:26 pmI just read that and I don’t think they did write that. The judgment just concludes that the Scotland Act doesn’t breech the right to self-determination set out in the UN Charter.discovolante wrote: ↑Wed Nov 23, 2022 1:08 pmThe SC also held that the right to self determination doesn't apply to Scotland. See paras 84 to 91 of the judgment.TopBadger wrote: ↑Wed Nov 23, 2022 11:44 am
I think the SNP need to get an overall majority in Holyrood (which they're close to, but critically do not have)... then the UK government can't exactly turn down an Indie Ref request whilst also claiming to support the UN charter which includes the right to self determination.
That's a fair point, but I don't think it's fully possible to predict how things would go in the event of an independence vote, although people can make educated guesses. So the terms of the referendum are only part of the issue. I suppose you've partly answered my question anyway.EACLucifer wrote: ↑Wed Nov 23, 2022 1:28 pmIt depends so much on what the terms are that I can't really answer that.discovolante wrote: ↑Wed Nov 23, 2022 1:25 pmI do wonder how many people who think there should be another referendum, don't actively want the outcome to be for Scotland to be independent (whether that's pro union, undecided or anywhere in between), and vice versa. Anyone? Would be interested go know.
Then again, if Brexit had done what the Brexiteers said it would, perhaps it would have been justified, too.
To put it another way, my objections are practical, rather than an objection to the idea in principle.discovolante wrote: ↑Wed Nov 23, 2022 1:39 pmThat's a fair point, but I don't think it's fully possible to predict how things would go in the event of an independence vote, although people can make educated guesses. So the terms of the referendum are only part of the issue. I suppose you've partly answered my question anyway.EACLucifer wrote: ↑Wed Nov 23, 2022 1:28 pmIt depends so much on what the terms are that I can't really answer that.
Then again, if Brexit had done what the Brexiteers said it would, perhaps it would have been justified, too.
Spain's been pretty clear they wouldn't block Scotland re-joining as long as the process was legal. Scotland is currently exploring which options would be legal.EACLucifer wrote: ↑Wed Nov 23, 2022 12:27 pmSo the usual pie in the sky, then - there's no way Spain agrees to the precedent of a territory breaking away from a country against the wishes of the national government being in the EU, for reasons obvious to everyone including Sturgeon.
Offering something that can't be done in the knowledge that most people will decide before they realise the truth - really is cut from the same cloth as Brexit.