Scrutable

Can we stay on the topic? Its very important.

Current JCVI priority list. LPM posted it above but this has supporting justification.

tom p wrote: ↑

Wed Dec 02, 2020 8:14 am

This is what a considered, but express, authorisation looks like
So is this
And this is what indecent haste for pathetic jingoistic purposes looks like
There is no chance that Pfizer provided their data to the MHRA earlier than providing it to the EMA. The MHRA has rushed through approval in 1 day. 1. Day.
I never thought the MHRA would be corrupted by this government. I knew that there would be a race to be the first to approve a vaccine, but I assumed that they would at least make a show of doing even a cursory check of the data, maybe give it a week, but no. Shameful. This is drug approval by press release.
There is no part of the state that won't be abused and broken by this government. If you are living in the UK, you have to assume that the rule of law will no longer apply.

Thanks Tom. I'd seen the quote from Hancock: "The MHRA, the fiercely independent regulator, has clinically authorised the vaccine for rollout" and I was slightly suspicious that he was so keen to emphasise how independent the MHRA were.

discovolante wrote: ↑

Wed Dec 02, 2020 11:01 am

Is anyone registered in this board actually under the impression that most of us are unlikely to get the vaccine for several months at least? Assuming Tom p's post is not grounds for caution. I've psychologically prepped myself for another year at the moment. Always subject to review one way or the other.

I'd estimated August and assumed I'd have to pay for it myself. If it's either free or available before that point I get to be pleasantly surprised.

By the time I get a chance to decide if I want it, I'll probably have an EMA decision and the fates of millions of over-50s to help me with my decision.

basementer wrote: ↑

Wed Dec 02, 2020 6:11 pm

sTeamTraen wrote: ↑

Wed Dec 02, 2020 5:00 pm

JQH wrote: ↑

Wed Dec 02, 2020 4:36 pm

What's the correct term for government by bullshitters?

I've learned a couple of new words recently: Kakistocracy is government by the worst people, and Ochlocracy is government by the mob. I think the "Kaki" bit may imply excrement.

How about Tauroskatocracy?

That mixes Latin and Greek. For consistency it would be Bous - something - cracy.

Ex-squeeze me? Baking powder? I'll have you know that my word was the product of several tens of seconds worth of uninformed googling.

shpalman wrote: ↑

Wed Dec 02, 2020 8:08 pm

Care home residents can't be vaccinated because the cases of 975 doses held at temperatures colder than -70°C cannot be split into smaller amounts needed for care homes, since the MHRA has authorised the rollout of the Pfizer vaccine only on the basis that those batches are intact.

I don't see the problem. Why not send the batch of 975 to ten care homes in a town? Line the residents up, have police escort to cut through traffic, jab 100 residents in half an hour, race off to the next place.

It's alright guys, problem solved on the vaccine safety front:

Still no efficacy data on any of the Chinese vaccines, however it seems they have started shipping large quantities of vaccine to developing countries, whether part of phase III trials or for more widespread use.

In the coming months, China will be sending hundreds of millions of doses of coronavirus vaccines to countries that have conducted last-stage trials for its leading candidates. Chinese leaders have also promised a growing list of developing countries priority access to its successful vaccines.

This global campaign presents China an opportunity to repair its image, which was damaged for its initial mishandling of the coronavirus outbreak -- rather than being blamed for the primary spread of the virus it can potentially be esteemed for helping to bring an end to the pandemic.

The vaccines can also be used by Beijing as "an instrument for foreign policy to promote soft power and project international influence," said Yanzhong Huang, a senior fellow for global health at the Washington-based Council on Foreign Relations.

Sinovac Biotech, a Nasdaq-listed drugmaker based in Beijing, has signed deals to provide 46 million doses of its Covid-19 vaccine to Brazil and 50 million doses to Turkey. It'll also supply 40 million doses of vaccine bulk -- the vaccine concentrate before it is divided into little vials -- to Indonesia for local production.

CanSino Biologics, which developed a coronavirus vaccine with a research unit of the Chinese military, will deliver 35 million doses of its vaccine to Mexico, one of the five host countries of its trials.

China National Biotec Group (CNBG), a unit of state-owned pharmaceutical giant China National Pharmaceutical Group (Sinopharm), has been less open about its deals. The company's two vaccine candidates are undergoing phase 3 trials in 10 countries, mostly in the Middle East and South America. In the United Arab Emirates, Dubai's ruler Sheikh Mohammed bin Rashid Al Maktoum volunteered to be vaccinated in trials and the vaccine was approved for emergency use. The Emirati company in partnership with Sinopharm hopes to produce between 75 and 100 million doses next year.

China's global vaccine campaign is in stark contrast to the Trump administration's "America first" approach, which focuses on vaccinating its own citizens before those elsewhere.

"So far we haven't heard the US saying or suggesting they're gonna earmark a percentage of their vaccine to support poor countries. So that puts China in an even better situation to use the vaccine to serve its foreign policy objective," Huang said.

In October, China joined a World Health Organization-backed global initiative to ensure the rapid and equitable distribution of Covid-19 vaccines to rich and poor countries alike

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/ch ... r-BB1bxJ6M

That seems unethical as f.ck.

Isn't that basically the plot of The Constant Gardener, only that's with Big Pharma rather than Big China?

Portugal is releasing details of its distribution plan tomorrow afternoon: logistics, safety and the register. It will be free, optional and distributed through the national health service. https://www.publico.pt/2020/12/02/socie ... 1419#55154

The health minister helpfully explains that will be a long process: "It won't be a single day." In fact, it will be "months".

Anyway the vaccine acquisition process is being hailed as an example of the EU functioning well. https://www.publico.pt/2020/11/19/socie ... er-1939924 Portugal already has 15 of the 16 million doses it needs (to reach 80% of the population) through the European Commission, with another 400k tomorrow.

A bit of concern about how to distribute the vaccines that require ultra-low temperatures, because while some hospitals and research centres have the right kind of freezer, not all of the health centres (= GP surgery, basically) do. So they've still got to work that out (the EU process leaves logistics up to individual member states). Portugal was a bit late stocking up on PPE in the beginning so they don't want to repeat errors.

They also explain that there are several different vaccines, at different stages of approval, and they're going to proceed with caution and use different vaccines in different circumstances.

Bird on a Fire wrote: ↑

Thu Dec 03, 2020 12:12 am

That seems unethical as f.ck.

Isn't that basically the plot of The Constant Gardener, only that's with Big Pharma rather than Big China?

But China wasn't responsible for the transatlantic slave trade, so it's OK. Or something.

jdc wrote: ↑

Wed Dec 02, 2020 9:22 pm

tom p wrote: ↑

Wed Dec 02, 2020 8:14 am

This is what a considered, but express, authorisation looks like
So is this
And this is what indecent haste for pathetic jingoistic purposes looks like
There is no chance that Pfizer provided their data to the MHRA earlier than providing it to the EMA. The MHRA has rushed through approval in 1 day. 1. Day.
I never thought the MHRA would be corrupted by this government. I knew that there would be a race to be the first to approve a vaccine, but I assumed that they would at least make a show of doing even a cursory check of the data, maybe give it a week, but no. Shameful. This is drug approval by press release.
There is no part of the state that won't be abused and broken by this government. If you are living in the UK, you have to assume that the rule of law will no longer apply.

Thanks Tom. I'd seen the quote from Hancock: "The MHRA, the fiercely independent regulator, has clinically authorised the vaccine for rollout" and I was slightly suspicious that he was so keen to emphasise how independent the MHRA were.

If this had happened 5 years ago, the MHRA could have done it then.
I should add to my post above, I have thought of a way that the MHRA could have received the data earlier: if they just asked for a summary. If they didn't require a full finished dossier with all the data, then they could have got it a week earlier.
I had read this thread a couple of weeks back and was going to mock birdy over his 'we shouldn't take big farmer's word for it and celebrate a press release' comment - pointing out that it doesn't matter a f.ck what some internet nobodies think & that regulators will demand the full data and will take time to assess the data. But I reckoned without the corrupting influence of this government.
Let's just hope that in the near future kate windsor doesn't get pregnant again and there isn't some press release trumpeting the efficacy of neo-thalidomide in curing morning sickness, otherwise this populist government will authorise that with indecent haste too.

lpm wrote: ↑

Wed Dec 02, 2020 9:56 pm

shpalman wrote: ↑

Wed Dec 02, 2020 8:08 pm

Care home residents can't be vaccinated because the cases of 975 doses held at temperatures colder than -70°C cannot be split into smaller amounts needed for care homes, since the MHRA has authorised the rollout of the Pfizer vaccine only on the basis that those batches are intact.

I don't see the problem. Why not send the batch of 975 to ten care homes in a town? Line the residents up, have police escort to cut through traffic, jab 100 residents in half an hour, race off to the next place.

Professor Van-Tam was on the BBC just now saying that the number of times that the vaccine can pass through ambient conditions or if you like the number of times the fridge door can be opened, is limited. You or I might imagine that it would be simple enough to take a batch of 975 around the care homes in a region, loading up their fridges with the doses they need which they can each administer over the following few days, but obviously the UK's world-beating express authorisation has not authorised this. (Opening the box once for a few minutes to transfer a few doses to a fridge is better than sitting there with the box open for half an hour while you vaccinate your residents directly from it, not least because it's probably actually necessary to let the vaccine reach fridge temperature before you inject it.)

That graphic which implies that batches can be "recharged with dry ice" makes another appearance, despite that dry ice isn't actually available in every UK supermarket and that opening the box in transit seems to invalidate the MHRA authorisation.

And because this is the Guardian there's still "recieve" in the caption.

In that case, why doesn't the world-beating UK simply authorise the Moderna and Oxford vaccines this morning and use them in old folks homes this afternoon? Or for that matter the MHRA can just authorise the use of single vials of Pfizer left hanging around in the back of a nursing home's fridge.

If you're gonna cut corners, why leave some corners uncut?

The UK has managed to quickly accept a vaccine made in Belgium developed by Turkish scientists working for an American company because “Well I just reckon we’ve got the very best people in this country...

“Much better than the French have, much better than the Belgians have, much better than the Americans have. That doesn’t surprise me at all because we’re a much better country than every single one of them, aren’t we.”

lpm wrote: ↑

Thu Dec 03, 2020 9:46 am

In that case, why doesn't the world-beating UK simply authorise the Moderna and Oxford vaccines this morning and use them in old folks homes this afternoon? Or for that matter the MHRA can just authorise the use of single vials of Pfizer left hanging around in the back of a nursing home's fridge.

If you're gonna cut corners, why leave some corners uncut?

Probably because even Pfizer didn't ask that such a use case be authorized.

Some of it is apparently on its way to the UK via the Eurotunnel.

Good job there won't be any barriers or impediments to UK-Continent road freight over the next few months.

shpalman wrote: ↑

Thu Dec 03, 2020 11:57 am

The UK has managed to quickly accept a vaccine made in Belgium developed by Turkish scientists working for an American company because “Well I just reckon we’ve got the very best people in this country...

“Much better than the French have, much better than the Belgians have, much better than the Americans have. That doesn’t surprise me at all because we’re a much better country than every single one of them, aren’t we.”

Tories becoming increasingly Trumpian on a daily basis.

Bird on a Fire wrote: ↑

Thu Dec 03, 2020 12:28 pm

shpalman wrote: ↑

Thu Dec 03, 2020 11:57 am

The UK has managed to quickly accept a vaccine made in Belgium developed by Turkish scientists working for an American company because “Well I just reckon we’ve got the very best people in this country...

“Much better than the French have, much better than the Belgians have, much better than the Americans have. That doesn’t surprise me at all because we’re a much better country than every single one of them, aren’t we.”

Tories becoming increasingly Trumpian on a daily basis.

I for one would love to hear Tom p's view on this

jdc wrote: ↑

Wed Dec 02, 2020 9:26 pm

discovolante wrote: ↑

Wed Dec 02, 2020 11:01 am

Is anyone registered in this board actually under the impression that most of us are unlikely to get the vaccine for several months at least? Assuming Tom p's post is not grounds for caution. I've psychologically prepped myself for another year at the moment. Always subject to review one way or the other.

I'd estimated August and assumed I'd have to pay for it myself. If it's either free or available before that point I get to be pleasantly surprised.

By the time I get a chance to decide if I want it, I'll probably have an EMA decision and the fates of millions of over-50s to help me with my decision.

See! Us boomers have our uses!

How much do regulator's decisions influence each other? Does the MHRA decision affect the FDA or the EMA?
What kind of things could cause the vaccine to not be approved? Could any regulator resist the political pressure to approve this?

NUMBER ONE IN EUROPE!!!

WE ARE THE BEST COUNTRY!!!!!!!

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-55176614

We won the first leg and are nicely placed to win the second.

U.K.! U.K.! U.K.!

We are the champignons!