COVID-19 Police state

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Opti
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Re: COVID-19 Police state

Post by Opti » Tue Apr 14, 2020 3:47 pm

Bewildered wrote:
Tue Apr 14, 2020 2:36 pm
Bird on a Fire wrote:
Fri Apr 10, 2020 5:11 pm
From your transcript (thanks!) I thought she sounded a bit freeman-on-the-landish ("Is that a demand or a request?") etc. Those guys are always going out trying to wind up cops and film the results for youtube.
Maybe yeah, I missed that bit, but anyway she was clearly prepped on being non-cooperative, and there are bunch of groups, including FOTL, who advocate that sort of thing and post videos of the confrontations. For the most part it was fair enough, she had a plausible disagreement on interpretation of the law and what she was doing then wasn’t obviously risky. However she wanted to get arrested to make some point or whatever. Normally I’d say fair enough, but in the current climate that increases the risk for many people, which in turn increases the risk for many others who they then have necessary contact with. Her “so what if I put myself at risk” attitude also didn’t help.
She really wouldn't want to try that, for example, here in Spain. Disputing the finer points of the Royal Decree, let alone taking the piss, is not looked on sympathetically.
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Re: COVID-19 Police state

Post by Opti » Tue Apr 14, 2020 3:49 pm

plebian wrote:
Tue Apr 14, 2020 3:46 pm
bmforre wrote:
Tue Apr 14, 2020 2:24 pm
Opti wrote:
Tue Apr 14, 2020 1:59 pm
... You don't discuss things with Guardia Civil. :o
Don't want to set off a transformation into Guardia Uncivil ?
I'd quite like the guardia civil to mess with me, judging by their uniforms.
It has to be said, they look quite, I dunno ... strict?
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Re: COVID-19 Police state

Post by Opti » Tue Apr 14, 2020 6:11 pm

Aaaah, found out why they were here. 5 houses were opened up today by 2nd homers. They've been sent back to their 'primary residence'. Popo aren't f.cking about here.
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Re: COVID-19 Police state

Post by Opti » Tue Apr 14, 2020 8:31 pm

Contrary to UK news reports Spain has not lifted it's lockdown .
We are not lifting our lockdown, some construction and industrial workers can return to work. Schools are still closed, universities are still closed, all bars, restaurants and hotels are closed, all retail shops except food outlets are closed.
We are only allowed out of our homes to shop for food, medical appointments and pharmacies and go to work if allowed as specified by the Decree.
We are only allowed to purchase essential items.... ie food, drink
We are not allowed out to exercise.
Dog owners can briefly take their pets out within immediate vicinity of home.
Our slightly eased lockdown is still way more strict than the UK one.
Fines for disobeying the lockdown START at €600.
We still have the Guardia and Army checking cars, shopping, receipts etc to ensure compliance

This is what lockdown is like.
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Re: COVID-19 Police state

Post by Herainestold » Tue Apr 14, 2020 9:53 pm

Opti wrote:
Tue Apr 14, 2020 8:31 pm
Contrary to UK news reports Spain has not lifted it's lockdown .
We are not lifting our lockdown, some construction and industrial workers can return to work. Schools are still closed, universities are still closed, all bars, restaurants and hotels are closed, all retail shops except food outlets are closed.
We are only allowed out of our homes to shop for food, medical appointments and pharmacies and go to work if allowed as specified by the Decree.
We are only allowed to purchase essential items.... ie food, drink
We are not allowed out to exercise.
Dog owners can briefly take their pets out within immediate vicinity of home.
Our slightly eased lockdown is still way more strict than the UK one.
Fines for disobeying the lockdown START at €600.
We still have the Guardia and Army checking cars, shopping, receipts etc to ensure compliance

This is what lockdown is like.
What it should look like. Can you go into your garden if you have one?

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Re: COVID-19 Police state

Post by Martin_B » Wed Apr 15, 2020 12:28 am

Opti wrote:
Tue Apr 14, 2020 3:49 pm
plebian wrote:
Tue Apr 14, 2020 3:46 pm
bmforre wrote:
Tue Apr 14, 2020 2:24 pm

Don't want to set off a transformation into Guardia Uncivil ?
I'd quite like the guardia civil to mess with me, judging by their uniforms.
It has to be said, they look quite, I dunno ... strict?
They don't look that bad - I love the hat at a jaunty angle
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Re: COVID-19 Police state

Post by Bird on a Fire » Wed Apr 15, 2020 11:49 am

Opti wrote:
Tue Apr 14, 2020 8:31 pm
Contrary to UK news reports Spain has not lifted it's lockdown .
We are not lifting our lockdown, some construction and industrial workers can return to work. Schools are still closed, universities are still closed, all bars, restaurants and hotels are closed, all retail shops except food outlets are closed.
We are only allowed out of our homes to shop for food, medical appointments and pharmacies and go to work if allowed as specified by the Decree.
We are only allowed to purchase essential items.... ie food, drink
We are not allowed out to exercise.
Dog owners can briefly take their pets out within immediate vicinity of home.
Our slightly eased lockdown is still way more strict than the UK one.
Fines for disobeying the lockdown START at €600.
We still have the Guardia and Army checking cars, shopping, receipts etc to ensure compliance

This is what lockdown is like.
My family's been asking if Portugal is going to "lift it's lockdown like Spain". I explained that Spain was on uberlockdown, and the "lifted" version just looks like what we've been doing here for a month already precisely so we don't end up with as many cases as Spain.

It does seem to be working, but I think only because people are taking it seriously, and I don't see any likelihood of it being actually lifted any time soon.

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Re: COVID-19 Police state

Post by shpalman » Wed Apr 15, 2020 12:28 pm

This morning, from my vantage point looking down on the town, I could see the vigili stopping cars on a relatively minor road.

These are sensitive days because deaths are coming down (but some care homes are under investigation) while cases aren't really coming down that much (but we have a lot more swabbing going on). I often wondered why the situation in the city of Milan wasn't worse, but now maybe it is; since people are generally managing to not move around (data from how phones are moving between cells is available to the authorities) all that can be said (I haven't seen any evidence) is that it's spreading within apartment blocks when people meet in their courtyards.
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Re: COVID-19 Police state

Post by Stranger Mouse » Thu Apr 16, 2020 11:46 am

Having been robust in my criticism of the irresponsible twunt on the park bench earlier in the thread I will now switch my attention to slagging off the nazi coppers abusing a journalist in this video

https://twitter.com/simonchilds13/statu ... 13760?s=21

Story


https://www.vice.com/en_uk/article/epge ... s-lockdown
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Re: COVID-19 Police state

Post by lpm » Thu Apr 16, 2020 1:54 pm

New guidelines issued, that the police are supposed to follow in their Nazi enforcement activities:

- can drive to exercise, but only if "far more time" is spent exercising than the drive
- can't sit on park benches for a "long" time
- can't work outside in parks
- can buy non-essentials while out shopping for essentials
- can move to a different household for a few days if "arguments at home”
What ever happened to that Trump guy, you know, the one who was president for a bit?

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Re: COVID-19 Police state

Post by Stranger Mouse » Thu Apr 16, 2020 3:03 pm

lpm wrote:
Thu Apr 16, 2020 1:54 pm
New guidelines issued, that the police are supposed to follow in their Nazi enforcement activities:

- can drive to exercise, but only if "far more time" is spent exercising than the drive
- can't sit on park benches for a "long" time
- can't work outside in parks
- can buy non-essentials while out shopping for essentials
- can move to a different household for a few days if "arguments at home”
Link here

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-52312560

This is a sentence I never saw myself typing at the beginning of the year

"There is no need for all of a person's shopping to be basic food supplies; the purchase of snacks and luxuries is still permitted," it says.
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Re: COVID-19 Police state

Post by Imrael » Thu Apr 16, 2020 3:48 pm

Small random example of market in operation. (A Tweet without link so could be rubbish).

Apparently in the Ukrainian lockdown some parks are only open to dog walkers, resulting in a number of informal businesses renting out dogs.

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Re: COVID-19 Police state

Post by Stranger Mouse » Thu Apr 16, 2020 5:00 pm

Imrael wrote:
Thu Apr 16, 2020 3:48 pm
Small random example of market in operation. (A Tweet without link so could be rubbish).

Apparently in the Ukrainian lockdown some parks are only open to dog walkers, resulting in a number of informal businesses renting out dogs.
I did notice in the UK guidelines something about being able to walk your own dog so they did look ahead for that at least
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Re: COVID-19 Police state

Post by sTeamTraen » Thu Apr 16, 2020 6:25 pm

Imrael wrote:
Thu Apr 16, 2020 3:48 pm
Small random example of market in operation. (A Tweet without link so could be rubbish).

Apparently in the Ukrainian lockdown some parks are only open to dog walkers, resulting in a number of informal businesses renting out dogs.
During the Pokemon Go craze, there was a story (later somewhat debunked) of people renting dogs from a shelter somewhere in the US so they could pretend they weren't (just) playing the game. Several people even ended up asking if they could keep the dog, so it was a huge win for everyone.
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Re: COVID-19 Police state

Post by Brightonian » Thu May 07, 2020 9:34 pm


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Re: COVID-19 Police state

Post by lpm » Thu Sep 10, 2020 10:23 am

Bumping this thread in anticipation of the invention of the

COVID MARSHALL

It sounds like a recipe for disaster. The snooping rule-applying petty-authoritarians are going to love the chance. Do we really want private citizens to be enlisted as marshalls to do law enforcement?

The news of the COVID MARSHALLS got buried a bit by the heady excitement of the

MOONSHOT
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Re: COVID-19 Police state

Post by headshot » Thu Sep 10, 2020 10:54 am

Ask not what your country can do for you, but what some c.nt will do to your family.

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Re: COVID-19 Police state

Post by mediocrity511 » Thu Sep 10, 2020 11:27 am

lpm wrote:
Thu Sep 10, 2020 10:23 am
Bumping this thread in anticipation of the invention of the

COVID MARSHALL

It sounds like a recipe for disaster. The snooping rule-applying petty-authoritarians are going to love the chance. Do we really want private citizens to be enlisted as marshalls to do law enforcement?

The news of the COVID MARSHALLS got buried a bit by the heady excitement of the

MOONSHOT
They need an SIA license, so rather than snooping busy bodies we are going to have bouncers patrolling the streets. I'm sure that will lead to a welcoming environment.

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Re: COVID-19 Police state

Post by sTeamTraen » Sat Sep 12, 2020 9:38 am

I suppose the COVID Marshalls are going to be organised via a COVID Marshall Plan, which could just be abbreviated to Marshall Plan. I think we could do with one of those.
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Re: COVID-19 Police state

Post by lpm » Fri Jan 08, 2021 11:52 am

This thread makes a comeback!

Why is always Derbyshire? How come they have mad police inventing laws, then when under pressure saying "oh, well, maybe not against the law, but it's against the spirit of the guidelines so we've got them bang to rights."

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-d ... e-55560814
Guidance issued by the Cabinet Office states that people can leave their homes for exercise but should not travel outside their "local area".

However, the actual legislation does not specify a maximum distance that people are allowed to travel for exercise.

Both the guidance and legislation state people can exercise with one other person, as Jessica Allen and Eliza Moore did.

Human rights barrister Adam Wagner said: "There is no law against travelling to exercise. The guidance is not legally binding and the police have no power to enforce it unless it is reflected in the lockdown regulations which in this case it is not."

Derbyshire Police said in a statement: "Driving to a location - where exercise could easily have been taken closer to a person's home - is clearly not in the spirit of the national effort to reduce our travel, reduce the possible spread of the disease and reduce the number of deaths."
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Re: COVID-19 Police state

Post by Woodchopper » Fri Jan 08, 2021 12:01 pm

lpm wrote:
Fri Jan 08, 2021 11:52 am
This thread makes a comeback!

Why is always Derbyshire? How come they have mad police inventing laws, then when under pressure saying "oh, well, maybe not against the law, but it's against the spirit of the guidelines so we've got them bang to rights."

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-d ... e-55560814
Guidance issued by the Cabinet Office states that people can leave their homes for exercise but should not travel outside their "local area".

However, the actual legislation does not specify a maximum distance that people are allowed to travel for exercise.

Both the guidance and legislation state people can exercise with one other person, as Jessica Allen and Eliza Moore did.

Human rights barrister Adam Wagner said: "There is no law against travelling to exercise. The guidance is not legally binding and the police have no power to enforce it unless it is reflected in the lockdown regulations which in this case it is not."

Derbyshire Police said in a statement: "Driving to a location - where exercise could easily have been taken closer to a person's home - is clearly not in the spirit of the national effort to reduce our travel, reduce the possible spread of the disease and reduce the number of deaths."
Yet another case in which a polite chat would have been the appropriate action. Not fining people.

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Re: COVID-19 Police state

Post by bagpuss » Fri Jan 08, 2021 12:06 pm

lpm wrote:
Fri Jan 08, 2021 11:52 am
This thread makes a comeback!

Why is always Derbyshire? How come they have mad police inventing laws, then when under pressure saying "oh, well, maybe not against the law, but it's against the spirit of the guidelines so we've got them bang to rights."

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-d ... e-55560814
Guidance issued by the Cabinet Office states that people can leave their homes for exercise but should not travel outside their "local area".

However, the actual legislation does not specify a maximum distance that people are allowed to travel for exercise.

Both the guidance and legislation state people can exercise with one other person, as Jessica Allen and Eliza Moore did.

Human rights barrister Adam Wagner said: "There is no law against travelling to exercise. The guidance is not legally binding and the police have no power to enforce it unless it is reflected in the lockdown regulations which in this case it is not."

Derbyshire Police said in a statement: "Driving to a location - where exercise could easily have been taken closer to a person's home - is clearly not in the spirit of the national effort to reduce our travel, reduce the possible spread of the disease and reduce the number of deaths."

WTF? I opened that expecting it to say they'd driven 50 miles, or at least 20-30 miles or something. I think any reasonable human being would think 5 miles would count as in their local area, surely?

Do Derbyshire Police not understand that "in the spirit" is not something they have any powers to enforce in any way? At the most, they should have advised those women that it would be better if they didn't drive anywhere and, frankly, I'm dubious that even that would be right. 5 miles is nothing, and even if they could have walked closer to home, who is to say that it would be better? I have a number of options for country walks starting from my home but every one of them gets busy after about 9am at the weekend and pretty much at any time in daylight during the week as, funnily enough, I'm not the only one who lives close to those places. Also, many of the footpaths are narrow and don't allow for safe distancing from people coming the other way. If I knew of a place 5 miles away that we could drive to and have a nice walk on a quiet footpath, I'd be driving there tomorrow - literally - as we need a walk and it would be safer than anywhere we could walk from here. I run in the dark in the week and the moment it's light enough at the weekend as that's the only way I can safely run and keep my distance from people, without getting in the car to drive. I have National Trust land, Forestry Commission land, canal towpaths and a reservoir within reach of my home on a 10km run, so I'm not short of options, but I still have to run at silly o-clock for any of them to be close to quiet as the rest of my town likes to walk or run in those places too.

Anyone living in a town or even village of significant size is likely to find that driving to a quiet location 5 miles away will be much safer than going for a walk directly from their front door, purely because of the number of people who live close to them and are inevitably going to be walking the same paths.

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Re: COVID-19 Police state

Post by veravista » Fri Jan 08, 2021 2:12 pm

Due to the rain, much of our dog walking area is difficult to get through - not impossible though. So occasionally we go to Elvaston Castle, local country hose with a nice little pathed walk around it. We went yesterday and were turned round by the police (Derbyshire) because we weren't local. Its 3 miles away, 1.5 miles by the river. Apparently we are in a different district and therefore it isn't local, the boundary is a mile from the park where it crosses the river. Even the people in the nearest village, just the other side of the river, have been turned away. They suggested we went to one of our 'local' parks, Locko (7 miles) or Breadsall (9 miles and private). Or we could go to Attenborough nature reserve (10 miles) and walk there, because that's in Nottinghamshire and they don't give a monkeys...

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Re: COVID-19 Police state

Post by Fishnut » Fri Jan 08, 2021 2:43 pm

I'd really like a much clearer definition of the term "local".

I remember when we first had the tiers there was a lot of discussion in a local FB group about whether or not people were allowed to go to Bristol. It's technically a different county (though the number of websites that still have us classed as Avon, which disappeared in 1996, for address purposes is a rant for another day) but it's also where most people here work and shop and we were in the same tier in large part because the major hospitals are in Bristol. The legislation was as clear as mud, as usual, and it seems they've still not learned any lessons for this latest lockdown.

The rules should either set an actual limit, e.g. no further than 5 miles from your house, or explicitly acknowledge that a one-size-fits-all rule is not possible and allow for some common sense that gets to be discussed and established at a regional level rather than based on the whims of whatever police officer happens to be around. I understand the arguments about wanting to restrict car use (if people get into accidents that require medical attention then it puts further strain on the NHS) but I'd have thought a simple way to handle that would be emergency law reducing the national speed limit to 30 mph. No-one will want to travel very far at that speed, reducing long journeys, and any accidents would be lower risk due to lower collision speeds.

Allowing police officers to fine people for breaking the "spirit" of the law is ridiculous and I really hope that the fines are reversed. The spirit of the law is to prevent people from mixing and risk the spread of the virus. But yet again the Derbyshire police seemed to have missed that.
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Re: COVID-19 Police state

Post by Sciolus » Fri Jan 08, 2021 3:00 pm

The legislation is perfectly clear. There are no restrictions on where you can go to take exercise. The word "local" does not appear and as far as law enforcement is concerned, it does not exist.

ETA: there is some ambiguity whether leaving home to take exercise outside includes driving somewhere to take exercise; but since they specifically say that exercise is allowed in "botanical gardens, gardens or grounds of a castle, stately home, historic house or other heritage site", which are not exactly within walking distance for most people, it would be unreasonable IMO to infer that it didn't.

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