COVID-19 Police state

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lpm
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Re: COVID-19 Police state

Post by lpm » Sun Jan 10, 2021 2:51 pm

The government deliberately went out of their way to permit exercising outdoors with one other non-household person. A deliberate addition of sentences to the previous law. Presumably they decided the benefits to two isolated people meeting for a walk at a pretty reservoir were worth having.

If the government decides to ban it, that's fine. That's their job in a deadly emergency. The problem comes when the police start to invent laws.

However the drive to have sexual affairs with non household members is a strong one. Married lovers meeting up illicitly is being done under the exercise outdoors excuse. "I'm just popping to the woods for some exercise, darling, will be back in a couple of hours, yes I always do my makeup when going off for a country walk why do you ask?" Was more of a problem last spring, at the moment you'd freeze your arse off, literally.
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Re: COVID-19 Police state

Post by Bird on a Fire » Sun Jan 10, 2021 3:09 pm

Were these people actually "exercising" out of doors, though, or was that merely an excuse to leave the house and the actual affair took place in a more conventional location? After all, if you're going to be doing actual sex things you'd need a hell of a lot of ventilation to mitigate the risk - perhaps on top of a wily, windy moor would work, or in a wind tunnel.

Also, while my wife is used to me leaving the house only moderately scruffy but coming back all covered in mud and twigs and bird droppings, I suspect many spouses would start to have serious misgivings about their partner's walking ability.
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Re: COVID-19 Police state

Post by shpalman » Sun Jan 10, 2021 3:13 pm

Bird on a Fire wrote:
Sun Jan 10, 2021 2:37 pm
OTOH if some people really really really can't not meet their friends it's much better that they do so walking around in the countryside than sneakily in each another's houses.

The actual risk of transmission from a countryside stroll is still pretty close to 0 unless you're holding hands and snogging while you do it, so it depends on whether cracking down on walkers would result in (a) closer obedience to the spirit of the law or (b) riskier forms of rule-breaking.
They're now going for walks nearer where they live, and that's allowed, and in the photo it looks pleasant enough and there's nobody else there.

They weren't originally stopped when they were walking around, they were stopped when they'd got out of their cars having driven to a place.

One thing to ask yourself is always "what if everyone else also did this?" i.e. you can't drive to a place which is quiet because everyone else knows they're not allowed to drive to it.

You don't want that the law ends up having to be increasingly specific and cock-sh.tty because the public and the police are in a race to see who can arrive at zero common sense first.
molto tricky

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Re: COVID-19 Police state

Post by shpalman » Mon Jan 11, 2021 4:33 pm

molto tricky

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Re: COVID-19 Police state

Post by Woodchopper » Mon Jan 11, 2021 5:01 pm

Bird on a Fire wrote:
Sun Jan 10, 2021 3:09 pm
After all, if you're going to be doing actual sex things you'd need a hell of a lot of ventilation to mitigate the risk - perhaps on top of a wily, windy moor would work, or in a wind tunnel.
Either that or a mask fetish.

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Re: COVID-19 Police state

Post by Fishnut » Mon Jan 11, 2021 5:01 pm

That feels disproportionate to the risk.
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lpm
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Re: COVID-19 Police state

Post by lpm » Tue Jan 12, 2021 9:09 am

I wonder how many people are genuinely unaware of the pandemic.

There are lucky lucky bastards who've never heard of Brexit. There will be people who don't know who Trump is. Some people just happily get on with their lives and pay zero attention to the news.

I suspect 10% of the population haven't heard any of the rules laws guidance, even if they know there's some illness thing going on and the pubs are shut.
What ever happened to that Trump guy, you know, the one who was president for a bit?

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Re: COVID-19 Police state

Post by badger » Tue Jan 12, 2021 10:12 am

Bird on a Fire wrote:
Sun Jan 10, 2021 2:37 pm
OTOH if some people really really really can't not meet their friends it's much better that they do so walking around in the countryside than sneakily in each another's houses.

The actual risk of transmission from a countryside stroll is still pretty close to 0 unless you're holding hands and snogging while you do it, so it depends on whether cracking down on walkers would result in (a) closer obedience to the spirit of the law or (b) riskier forms of rule-breaking.
I thought that too, but round our local suburban park I now question it. The fashion in the last couple of months is for meeting up with a different friend from a different household everyday, getting a takeaway coffee, and promenading shoulder to shoulder and having a good natter. The coffee is held out in front of them both, the lids a little landing pad for spit and airborne virus particles. The park is flooded and very muddy, so competition for path space is fierce and distancing impossible at times. Even for walkers in wellies, bizarrely. And no masks, because you can't drink the coffee with it on.

The situation is similar in nearby parks, I'm told, so I can see why some people might thinking driving 10-20 miles out of town to find some space to walk might seem like they're doing everyone a favour.

I can see a crackdown might force people back in doors to meet, but I think exercise is important to people, and they're just bolting on a social component because they can. I don't think they would meet indoors as often as they do out. But that's obviously a big guess.

In other news, my 12 mile round trip of a cycle ride into town and back, to drop off a parcel and get some exercise at the same time, is now brought into question by Boris' jaunt to Olympic park (which didn't seem that bad to me). Tricky, innit?

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Re: COVID-19 Police state

Post by Fishnut » Tue Jan 12, 2021 10:31 am

She's now said that the rules need to be "clarified" (10:04 post if that link doesn't work properly)

Yet again we have the police in the awkward position of having to excuse the actions of politicians that they've previously condemned for us plebs. While I think in this case Johnson was probably in keeping with the law (not something I ever thought I'd say) it shows how heavy-handed the police have been.

It's worth highlighting something from shpalman's last link,
Adam Wagner, human rights lawyer and visiting professor of law at Goldsmiths, University of London, agrees that the “law is woolly”, telling the programme that the laws have changed 65 times since March and the law around coronavirus has grown to over 100 pages from about 12.
I think the first legislation was for the first lockdown on 25th March 2020 (that's what Google suggests anyway. By my count there's been 294 days between then and today, which makes an average of a change every 4.5 days. Which is, imo, f.cking ridiculous.
badger wrote:
Tue Jan 12, 2021 10:12 am
I thought that too, but round our local suburban park I now question it. The fashion in the last couple of months is for meeting up with a different friend from a different household everyday, getting a takeaway coffee, and promenading shoulder to shoulder and having a good natter. The coffee is held out in front of them both, the lids a little landing pad for spit and airborne virus particles. The park is flooded and very muddy, so competition for path space is fierce and distancing impossible at times. Even for walkers in wellies, bizarrely. And no masks, because you can't drink the coffee with it on.
That does make things more difficult to manage. For parks with limited entrances some sort of crowd management could be possible but for those without it would be nigh-on impossible. We don't seem to have had much of an uptick of people walking around here this time, but the weather has been pretty sh.t and the fields are really muddy which puts off all but the most determined.
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Re: COVID-19 Police state

Post by headshot » Tue Jan 12, 2021 1:20 pm

badger wrote:
Tue Jan 12, 2021 10:12 am
I thought that too, but round our local suburban park I now question it. The fashion in the last couple of months is for meeting up with a different friend from a different household everyday, getting a takeaway coffee, and promenading shoulder to shoulder and having a good natter. The coffee is held out in front of them both, the lids a little landing pad for spit and airborne virus particles. The park is flooded and very muddy, so competition for path space is fierce and distancing impossible at times. Even for walkers in wellies, bizarrely. And no masks, because you can't drink the coffee with it on.
And I f.cking bet that the people preparing the coffee aren't wearing masks or sanitising between transactions.

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Re: COVID-19 Police state

Post by Hunting Dog » Tue Jan 12, 2021 1:29 pm

badger wrote:
Tue Jan 12, 2021 10:12 am
I thought that too, but round our local suburban park I now question it. The fashion in the last couple of months is for meeting up with a different friend from a different household everyday, getting a takeaway coffee, and promenading shoulder to shoulder and having a good natter. The coffee is held out in front of them both, the lids a little landing pad for spit and airborne virus particles. The park is flooded and very muddy, so competition for path space is fierce and distancing impossible at times. Even for walkers in wellies, bizarrely. And no masks, because you can't drink the coffee with it on.
Park nearest us is like that too. That does have playing fields and adjacent woodland where you can get further from people, but it has one main paved path through the middle linking it to the adjacent roads/car parks, and a large popular children's' playground area. People are quite reluctant to get off the path to allow distancing, and quite a lot actually stop for a chat in the middle of the path including in bottleneck areas where you can't get off the path due to fences, which doesn't help!

I've also seen quite a few groups out walking that look suspiciously like 'not one household or bubble'. e.g. Mr x and Mr y have decided to have a one to one walk together at the same time as Mrs x and Mrx y have decided to have a one to one walk together and they happen to be doing it on the same route just behind each other, whilst household z are also having a walk on the same route just behind them :roll:

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Re: COVID-19 Police state

Post by Bird on a Fire » Tue Jan 12, 2021 1:44 pm

headshot wrote:
Tue Jan 12, 2021 1:20 pm
badger wrote:
Tue Jan 12, 2021 10:12 am
I thought that too, but round our local suburban park I now question it. The fashion in the last couple of months is for meeting up with a different friend from a different household everyday, getting a takeaway coffee, and promenading shoulder to shoulder and having a good natter. The coffee is held out in front of them both, the lids a little landing pad for spit and airborne virus particles. The park is flooded and very muddy, so competition for path space is fierce and distancing impossible at times. Even for walkers in wellies, bizarrely. And no masks, because you can't drink the coffee with it on.
And I f.cking bet that the people preparing the coffee aren't wearing masks or sanitising between transactions.
Surely mask use is compulsory for staff preparing food or drinks, even in the UK?! It's been compulsory here in Portugal, and many other places, since about March!!
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Re: COVID-19 Police state

Post by headshot » Tue Jan 12, 2021 1:49 pm

Bird on a Fire wrote:
Tue Jan 12, 2021 1:44 pm
headshot wrote:
Tue Jan 12, 2021 1:20 pm
badger wrote:
Tue Jan 12, 2021 10:12 am
I thought that too, but round our local suburban park I now question it. The fashion in the last couple of months is for meeting up with a different friend from a different household everyday, getting a takeaway coffee, and promenading shoulder to shoulder and having a good natter. The coffee is held out in front of them both, the lids a little landing pad for spit and airborne virus particles. The park is flooded and very muddy, so competition for path space is fierce and distancing impossible at times. Even for walkers in wellies, bizarrely. And no masks, because you can't drink the coffee with it on.
And I f.cking bet that the people preparing the coffee aren't wearing masks or sanitising between transactions.
Surely mask use is compulsory for staff preparing food or drinks, even in the UK?! It's been compulsory here in Portugal, and many other places, since about March!!
That would be a massive NOPE. It's the reason why the only takeaways I've bought since March are ones you can reheat back home, or pre-wrapped.

The only fast food place I've been confident to use is McDonald's because they're very explicit about their use of PPE and you and see all the staff geared up. One of the things I craved in lockdown was a Five Guys burger (don't @ me), but they didn't have a PPE policy in place and their prep staff were all unmasked.

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Re: COVID-19 Police state

Post by Bird on a Fire » Tue Jan 12, 2021 1:57 pm

FFS what is actually wrong with the UK?

Prosecuting country strolls but allowing food prep workers to gob all over the shop, nice one.

It's just staggeringly, incomprehensibly dumb. What is achieved here?
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Re: COVID-19 Police state

Post by headshot » Tue Jan 12, 2021 2:51 pm

Bird on a Fire wrote:
Tue Jan 12, 2021 1:57 pm
FFS what is actually wrong with the UK?

Prosecuting country strolls but allowing food prep workers to gob all over the shop, nice one.

It's just staggeringly, incomprehensibly dumb. What is achieved here?
I 100% agree. I don't understand why there isn't a full mask policy as soon as you leave your house.

In food service, only the customer-facing staff are required to wear masks. The kitchen staff aren't at all.

The policy would also make sense from a business perspective too. I can't be the only person who is reluctant to eat at places where food is prepped in a maskless environment.

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Re: COVID-19 Police state

Post by science_fox » Tue Jan 12, 2021 3:05 pm

And part of the reasons is that it is insanely difficult to keep up with all the rule changes. There have been 65 changes to legislation alone - more than 1 a week! - since Lockdown began. This doesn't include changes to the guidelines, media reporting the wrong thing, or politicians soundbiting things that aren't in the law.

Because in an open democracy someone is always keeping an eye out - step forward: Adam Wagner
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1ne4 ... GmF2K/edit

Ignorance of the law is no excuse, but, not only will General Public not know what the law is, I very much doubt the average copper will either.

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Re: COVID-19 Police state

Post by Grumble » Tue Jan 12, 2021 3:50 pm

I don’t think it’s easy to wear a mask in a hot and humid environment like a kitchen. When masks get damp they aren’t effective are they? At least that was my understanding.
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Re: COVID-19 Police state

Post by Opti » Tue Jan 12, 2021 4:25 pm

Bird on a Fire wrote:
Tue Jan 12, 2021 1:57 pm
FFS what is actually wrong with the UK?

Prosecuting country strolls but allowing food prep workers to gob all over the shop, nice one.

It's just staggeringly, incomprehensibly dumb. What is achieved here?
I only just truly realised that, back in the UK, people stroll about maskless. With no legal recourse and, apparently, not enough public disapproval.
Here, we've been living masked up in all public situations since March. You just won't get into a supermarket without one. The security people have nightsticks and handcuffs. Yet no-one feels like they're living in a police state. Except a very few nutters, but even they stick by the rules. Maybe that has something to do with the rate in Andalucia being <200/100,000.
We feel pretty safe here, yet we anticipate further restrictions soon.
Really, WTF is wrong with the UK?
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Re: COVID-19 Police state

Post by raven » Tue Jan 12, 2021 9:06 pm

headshot wrote:
Tue Jan 12, 2021 1:49 pm
Bird on a Fire wrote:
Tue Jan 12, 2021 1:44 pm
headshot wrote:
Tue Jan 12, 2021 1:20 pm
And I f.cking bet that the people preparing the coffee aren't wearing masks or sanitising between transactions.
Surely mask use is compulsory for staff preparing food or drinks, even in the UK?! It's been compulsory here in Portugal, and many other places, since about March!!
That would be a massive NOPE. It's the reason why the only takeaways I've bought since March are ones you can reheat back home, or pre-wrapped.
What the actual f.ck? Staff at our (all 2 of them) local takeaways have been gloved & masked up since the start. Kitchen staff too. And we're in the back of beyond. Also, last weekend the (muddy) lane we use for Sunday walks was slightly busier than it has been: we passed 3 or 4 other couples, and 2 couples with little kids. It's wide enough to pass safely on too.

Damn, we're lucky to live somewhere so quiet.

ETA: We're in the UK. I just assumed those were the rules....

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Re: COVID-19 Police state

Post by nezumi » Tue Jan 12, 2021 10:40 pm

headshot wrote:
Tue Jan 12, 2021 2:51 pm

The policy would also make sense from a business perspective too. I can't be the only person who is reluctant to eat at places where food is prepped in a maskless environment.
It occurs to me just now that all food prep workers should always wear masks, pandemic or not! Speaking as a former food prep worker, it now amazes me that I ever thought it was OK to prepare somebody else's food without a mask and gloves. It really isn't.
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Re: COVID-19 Police state

Post by Bird on a Fire » Wed Jan 13, 2021 1:18 am

nezumi wrote:
Tue Jan 12, 2021 10:40 pm
headshot wrote:
Tue Jan 12, 2021 2:51 pm

The policy would also make sense from a business perspective too. I can't be the only person who is reluctant to eat at places where food is prepped in a maskless environment.
It occurs to me just now that all food prep workers should always wear masks, pandemic or not! Speaking as a former food prep worker, it now amazes me that I ever thought it was OK to prepare somebody else's food without a mask and gloves. It really isn't.
All ice machines contain faecal coliforms, for example.
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Re: COVID-19 Police state

Post by bagpuss » Wed Jan 13, 2021 12:17 pm

raven wrote:
Tue Jan 12, 2021 9:06 pm
headshot wrote:
Tue Jan 12, 2021 1:49 pm
Bird on a Fire wrote:
Tue Jan 12, 2021 1:44 pm


Surely mask use is compulsory for staff preparing food or drinks, even in the UK?! It's been compulsory here in Portugal, and many other places, since about March!!
That would be a massive NOPE. It's the reason why the only takeaways I've bought since March are ones you can reheat back home, or pre-wrapped.
What the actual f.ck? Staff at our (all 2 of them) local takeaways have been gloved & masked up since the start. Kitchen staff too. And we're in the back of beyond. Also, last weekend the (muddy) lane we use for Sunday walks was slightly busier than it has been: we passed 3 or 4 other couples, and 2 couples with little kids. It's wide enough to pass safely on too.

Damn, we're lucky to live somewhere so quiet.

ETA: We're in the UK. I just assumed those were the rules....
Same here - for the local takeaways that is, and the assumption that those were the rules. At least, it's the case for the 4 takeaways we've used. There are others that have probably also applied the same rules and one or two that I wouldn't be so confident now that I know it's not the law, but we don't use them anyway.


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Re: COVID-19 Police state

Post by shpalman » Tue Jan 26, 2021 9:30 pm

molto tricky

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