Covid-19 the unlockdown

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JQH
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Re: Covid-19 the unlockdown

Post by JQH » Mon Jun 22, 2020 10:45 am

Proper hygiene in handling meat in the home needs to be observed. For example, if I've been handling raw meat I wash my hands before doing anything else anyway but if the meat is contaminated with coronavirii I won't transmit infection. Presumably cooking will kill off the virus so it'll be fine when we get to eat it.
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Re: Covid-19 the unlockdown

Post by discovolante » Mon Jun 22, 2020 1:34 pm

All the hearings I'd been preparing for for July that had been put back due to covid (about 20-25) are being put back on hold until an unspecified date. Probably end up being some time in August. Bit of a mixed bag that, as far as my clients are concerned, but will probably add a lot of mental strain overall.

On a personal level means I might be able to squeeze in a few days off in July after all but ultimately kicks the can down the road for a pretty chaotic second half of 2020, work wise.
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Re: Covid-19 the unlockdown

Post by Bird on a Fire » Mon Jun 22, 2020 1:57 pm

EllyCat wrote:
Mon Jun 22, 2020 9:48 am
Bird on a Fire wrote:
Sun Jun 21, 2020 10:46 pm
Once again, a slaughterhouse is responsible for a lot of cases.

Obviously food production is important, but the meat industry seems to be really struggling to maintain hygienic conditions - is there not perhaps an argument for additional restrictions on risky practices?
If the virus is airborne, it may not be a failure of hygiene practices as much as “environment designed to stop (edible) biological matter from deteriorating stops (viral) biological matter from deteriorating”. Slaughterhouses/meat processing plants seem to be the Western equivalent of wet markets in terms of transmission.
Yes, I think the issue is high densities of people (specifically low-waged people, often immigrants) in refrigerated conditions - as far as I'm aware the main issue is person-to-person transmission rather than infected meat. The obvious solution would be to reduce staff densities to they're at less risk of infecting each other, but that would reduce kills per hour and therefore profits.
EllyCat wrote:
Mon Jun 22, 2020 9:48 am
But I don’t know what the implications for farming supply and demand would be of a blanket shut-down, and I imagine that’s one industry we really don’t want to cripple pre-Brexit.
In the US pig farmers have been slaughtering animals en masse by sealing the ventilation ducts and pumping in hot steam https://theintercept.com/2020/05/29/pig ... ronavirus/

So it seems like the margins on farming are so slim that it's not worth keeping the animals alive for an extra few months before killing them. The issues at stake are therefore worker and community safety vs keeping meat prices low.
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Re: Covid-19 the unlockdown

Post by Fishnut » Tue Jun 23, 2020 8:57 pm

I have a question about the lockdown relaxation in restrictions - has the law actually changed and if so,
1) where is the new legislation?
2) where are the parliamentary debates about changing the legislation?

I guess that's three questions.

I know that the original legislation wasn't debated as it was an emergency but parliament is working and surely changes of this magnitude need more that just Johnson's okay? It's just I've seen no mention of the legislation or the debates around it. I've also not heard anything about the publication of the 'review' that was supposed to be being done into the potential reduction in the 2m social distancing restriction. I don't want to sound like a conspiracy theorist but I'm starting to think the government is making it up as it goes without any parliamentary oversight. But that couldn't possibly be the case, could it?

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Re: Covid-19 the unlockdown

Post by Sciolus » Tue Jun 23, 2020 9:25 pm

The regs currently in force are here. These are made by the Secretary of State under the authority of the Public Health (Control of Disease) Act 1984, and as a Statutory Instrument they have much less parliamentary oversight than primary legislation. AUIU it is possible to vote them down though.

Presumably a draft of the new regs will be published somewhere at some point, but I don't know where or when.

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Re: Covid-19 the unlockdown

Post by Millennie Al » Tue Jun 23, 2020 11:57 pm

Fishnut wrote:
Tue Jun 23, 2020 8:57 pm
surely changes of this magnitude need more that just Johnson's okay? It's just I've seen no mention of the legislation or the debates around it. I've also not heard anything about the publication of the 'review' that was supposed to be being done into the potential reduction in the 2m social distancing restriction. I don't want to sound like a conspiracy theorist but I'm starting to think the government is making it up as it goes without any parliamentary oversight. But that couldn't possibly be the case, could it?
Yes, it could. See https://davidallengreen.com/2020/06/the ... gulations/
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Re: Covid-19 the unlockdown

Post by Woodchopper » Wed Jun 24, 2020 9:41 am

Sciolus wrote:
Tue Jun 23, 2020 9:25 pm
The regs currently in force are here. These are made by the Secretary of State under the authority of the Public Health (Control of Disease) Act 1984, and as a Statutory Instrument they have much less parliamentary oversight than primary legislation. AUIU it is possible to vote them down though.

Presumably a draft of the new regs will be published somewhere at some point, but I don't know where or when.
Yes, Statutory Instruments just get a yes/no vote in parliament. No need for debate in committees etc.

As a wider point, the last ten years have been remarkable in UK politics in that no party had a majority. That meant that MPs had far greater ability to actually scrutinize the government and affect policy. With a majority of 80 Johnson can pretty much do what he wants. He isn't going to lose any sleep over whether he'll lose any votes and his whips can ensure the loyalty of MPs in committees. For example, if the regulations were to be discussed in the Health and Social Care Select Committee, the Chair and a majority of MPs on the committee are from the Conservative Party.

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Re: Covid-19 the unlockdown

Post by Gentleman Jim » Thu Jun 25, 2020 3:06 pm

A major incident has been declared in Bournemouth after thousands of people flocked to the Dorset coast on the second day of the UK heatwave.

Bournemouth Christchurch and Poole Council said it was "stretched to the absolute hilt".

Dorset Police has urged people to stay away from the resort and other beaches in the county.

There have been reports of traffic gridlock, anti-social behaviour, fights and overnight camping.
From Bournemouth pier there are thousands of people as far as the eye can see. Some in the sea on inflatables, others sitting on the sand, there are significant [numbers of] gazebos - there is one group of about 50 people.

One man told me he camped in a tent overnight, a lot of people have come from Birmingham - a six-hour round trip. People were telling me they wanted to get "out and about" after lockdown.

It's incredibly hard to keep social distancing - people are passing each other certainly at less than 2m.

One woman from Birmingham admitted she felt uncomfortable, but said: "You've got to understand, after three months lockdown in the city centre, even seeing the sea is worth it."
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-dorset-53176717

(My bold)
I wonder how she would appreciate the view from inside ICU for her or her family?
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Re: Covid-19 the unlockdown

Post by lpm » Thu Jun 25, 2020 3:55 pm

I went to the supermarket last night. About 8pm to avoid plague carrying crowds.

Was quite busy. Only 4 other people were wearing face coverings. So few it felt self-conscious to be wearing one.

It would have been so easy. Shove a mask on the Queen, stick her in front of the cameras and waffle on about everyone in the war having gas masks. We'd have jumped to high compliance, enough that the non-mask wearers would feel conspicuous and would join the herd.

Same could have happened in America. If Trump had made it tribal - snowflake liberals cower indoors, real Americans go out and about wearing a mask - he would have saved a lot of lives, plenty of votes and cashed in on Maga masks.

It's so frustrating. It looks like a bit of social distancing and a decent number of masks is enough to hold back infections for an outdoors crowd. We're missing out of cheap and easy reductions in R and carrying on with expensive and destructive measures like keeping schools closed.
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Re: Covid-19 the unlockdown

Post by Fishnut » Thu Jun 25, 2020 6:25 pm

Rather than blaming people for going to the beach on one of the hottest days of the year, why not blame the government for sending such mixed and contradictory messages for the last few weeks and trying to pretend that the pandemic is largely over and it's safe to go out?

They're telling us to go shopping and that we're going to be able to go to the pub and restaurants next week. At least a beach is out in the open. If/when there's a second spike it's going to the be government's fault. 3+ months into this pandemic and we're still relying on fabric masks with no quality assurance to protect ourselves when we go outside. That's a failure of government, not individuals.

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Re: Covid-19 the unlockdown

Post by Bird on a Fire » Thu Jun 25, 2020 7:06 pm

lpm wrote:
Thu Jun 25, 2020 3:55 pm
Same could have happened in America. If Trump had made it tribal - snowflake liberals cower indoors, real Americans go out and about wearing a mask - he would have saved a lot of lives, plenty of votes and cashed in on Maga masks.
There does seem to be quite the market for snazzy masks. I've seen random punters with all sorts of pretty designs, and restaurant staff with branded masks - either the name of the restaurant or Super Bock (a Portuguese lager that churns out loads of branded everything for bars, from glasses to furniture and signs).
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Re: Covid-19 the unlockdown

Post by lpm » Thu Jun 25, 2020 7:34 pm

Fishnut wrote:
Thu Jun 25, 2020 6:25 pm
Rather than blaming people for going to the beach on one of the hottest days of the year, why not blame the government for sending such mixed and contradictory messages for the last few weeks and trying to pretend that the pandemic is largely over and it's safe to go out?

They're telling us to go shopping and that we're going to be able to go to the pub and restaurants next week. At least a beach is out in the open. If/when there's a second spike it's going to the be government's fault. 3+ months into this pandemic and we're still relying on fabric masks with no quality assurance to protect ourselves when we go outside. That's a failure of government, not individuals.
We don't want to live in a nanny f.cking state. What kind of pathetic people just does what it's told? We need a society of active citizens working together for long term benefits, not a bunch of idiots who jump to self indulgence whenever Daddy isn't looking.
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Re: Covid-19 the unlockdown

Post by Fishnut » Thu Jun 25, 2020 7:39 pm

I'm not saying we should live in a nanny state but we've had weeks of the government downplaying the risk of coronavirus, of telling us it's our patriotic duty to get back to normal, we've got cabinet ministers tweeting pictures of themselves going out shopping without wearing masks and not social distancing. The government are acting like it's safe and people are believing them.

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Re: Covid-19 the unlockdown

Post by EACLucifer » Thu Jun 25, 2020 7:45 pm

Fishnut wrote:
Thu Jun 25, 2020 7:39 pm
I'm not saying we should live in a nanny state but we've had weeks of the government downplaying the risk of coronavirus, of telling us it's our patriotic duty to get back to normal, we've got cabinet ministers tweeting pictures of themselves going out shopping without wearing masks and not social distancing. The government are acting like it's safe and people are believing them.
This.

However, despite this, we must do what we can to convince people both to distance and to mask, and enable them in doing so. A friend and I were able to distribute several hundred locally. If anyone has the time or skill to make masks, educate people on the need for masks and risk reduction, or help in any other way to shift the behaviour of the public, now is the time to step up for our communities.

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Re: Covid-19 the unlockdown

Post by lpm » Thu Jun 25, 2020 8:28 pm

The government was just as sh.t in March - but we as a society came together to shut down. Traffic data shows the decline well ahead of the official 23 March lockdown.

There's always alternative leadership to be found. We rallied around some old bloke walking round his garden. A young footballer defeated the government. We have royals with immense celeb power. And when there are no leaders, there can still be a protest spanning the country and bringing down statues.

Government failure isn't an excuse. This is a highly educated and wealthy country, benefiting from decades of peace and democracy. If everyone can f.cking clap on Thursday evenings, we combine on agreed strategies.
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Re: Covid-19 the unlockdown

Post by EACLucifer » Thu Jun 25, 2020 9:02 pm

lpm wrote:
Thu Jun 25, 2020 8:28 pm
The government was just as sh.t in March - but we as a society came together to shut down. Traffic data shows the decline well ahead of the official 23 March lockdown.

There's always alternative leadership to be found. We rallied around some old bloke walking round his garden. A young footballer defeated the government. We have royals with immense celeb power. And when there are no leaders, there can still be a protest spanning the country and bringing down statues.

Government failure isn't an excuse. This is a highly educated and wealthy country, benefiting from decades of peace and democracy. If everyone can f.cking clap on Thursday evenings, we combine on agreed strategies.
Then stop bitching about it on a forum where we're basically all in agreement and doing something in your community, or, if you already are, then perhaps you could explain what it is you are doing so as to serve as an example for others.

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Re: Covid-19 the unlockdown

Post by FlammableFlower » Thu Jun 25, 2020 9:35 pm

Seems bits of Portugal are going back into lockdown - friend of mine over there posted on Facebook that it's on a 'parish' level and his parish is one of them.

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Re: Covid-19 the unlockdown

Post by lpm » Thu Jun 25, 2020 10:02 pm

EACLucifer wrote:
Thu Jun 25, 2020 9:02 pm
lpm wrote:
Thu Jun 25, 2020 8:28 pm
The government was just as sh.t in March - but we as a society came together to shut down. Traffic data shows the decline well ahead of the official 23 March lockdown.

There's always alternative leadership to be found. We rallied around some old bloke walking round his garden. A young footballer defeated the government. We have royals with immense celeb power. And when there are no leaders, there can still be a protest spanning the country and bringing down statues.

Government failure isn't an excuse. This is a highly educated and wealthy country, benefiting from decades of peace and democracy. If everyone can f.cking clap on Thursday evenings, we combine on agreed strategies.
Then stop bitching about it on a forum where we're basically all in agreement and doing something in your community, or, if you already are, then perhaps you could explain what it is you are doing so as to serve as an example for others.
You missed the point, it was way over there.

This requires unconventional politics. This government does not respond to usual methods. It doesn't care about tabloid criticism, is openly incompetent, just says we're moving on when it wants to stifle opposition. Failure of government is a given.

And yet there is huge potential for new politics, bypassing government politics.
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Re: Covid-19 the unlockdown

Post by Bird on a Fire » Fri Jun 26, 2020 12:11 am

FlammableFlower wrote:
Thu Jun 25, 2020 9:35 pm
Seems bits of Portugal are going back into lockdown - friend of mine over there posted on Facebook that it's on a 'parish' level and his parish is one of them.
Yep, the decline in cases stopped as soon the government permitted reopening. The virus has now spread into the outskirts of Lisbon, where tourists don't go but where most of the workers in newly-opened shops and restaurants live, and seems to be reaching Lisbon-level infection rates now. My parish has similar demographics, but it's south of the river and so far so good - but it does seem the unlockdown here was a bit hasty (although the country is pretty broke too).
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Re: Covid-19 the unlockdown

Post by shpalman » Fri Jun 26, 2020 5:56 am

Italy has had a couple of new outbreaks. One is at the Bartolini warehouse near Bologna (Bartolini are a courier/delivery service) which involves more than 40 cases, the other in council housing in Mondragone north of Napoli.
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Re: Covid-19 the unlockdown

Post by shpalman » Fri Jun 26, 2020 12:17 pm

lpm wrote:
Thu Jun 25, 2020 7:34 pm
Fishnut wrote:
Thu Jun 25, 2020 6:25 pm
Rather than blaming people for going to the beach on one of the hottest days of the year, why not blame the government for sending such mixed and contradictory messages for the last few weeks and trying to pretend that the pandemic is largely over and it's safe to go out?

They're telling us to go shopping and that we're going to be able to go to the pub and restaurants next week. At least a beach is out in the open. If/when there's a second spike it's going to the be government's fault. 3+ months into this pandemic and we're still relying on fabric masks with no quality assurance to protect ourselves when we go outside. That's a failure of government, not individuals.
We don't want to live in a nanny f.cking state. What kind of pathetic people just does what it's told? We need a society of active citizens working together for long term benefits, not a bunch of idiots who jump to self indulgence whenever Daddy isn't looking.
People who drive all the way to the beach and then complain that lots of other people have done the same thing clearly can't properly figure out what to do for themselves.

Mum Jane said she was "shocked" by the number of other people who were doing exactly the same thing as they were doing.

“It’s nice to get out of quarantine but I think it’s going to peak again because everyone’s going to go mad and go anywhere they can just like we f.cking did."

"I find that quite annoying to be honest. It’s like being in Tesco, which I've been going to every day whether I need to or not just to have something to do."

And this was a story from May.

There have been plenty of other cases "herp derp it shouldn't be allowed look at how many other people have come here just like I didn't need to"

oH buT wE lIvE iN a cItY wE dOn'T hAvE a gArDeN yeah like the nearest open space to you is several hours drive away. It's an insult to all the people who've made all sorts of sacrifices to stay in lockdown.

Not that I'm absolving the government, they've been doing the "it's not that bad it'll be fine we'll get back to normal lots of people will die we're past the peak" thing the whole time. They've completely lost control of, and authority over, the situation.

Lincolnshire doesn't seem to be particularly heavily hit (apart from Boston, where you are more likely to die from either covid or stabbing by the look of it) (most of June without any deaths at all, for example, and hardly any cases) which led some to suggest that isolating Lincoln from the rest of the country would have allowed the lockdown to be avoided there.

25 percent of Britain could have avoided lockdown during COVID-19 crisis

They concluded that infection rates in Lincoln would still have fallen if a cordon had been put in place around the city and items and people leaving the cordon were checked.

People would then have been able to move around freely within the cordon, so long as they wore face masks, followed social distancing and any people who became infected self-isolated.


IF PEOPLE HAD BEEN WEARING FACE MASKS, FOLLOWING SOCIAL DISTANCING, AND ISOLATING ONCE INFECTED* THEN THERE WOULDN'T STILL BE OVER A THOUSAND NEW CASES PER DAY IN THE COUNTRY.

* - who knows if you're infected and contagious but asymptomatic? there's crap testing capacity.
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Re: Covid-19 the unlockdown

Post by FlammableFlower » Fri Jun 26, 2020 2:03 pm

Bird on a Fire wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 12:11 am
FlammableFlower wrote:
Thu Jun 25, 2020 9:35 pm
Seems bits of Portugal are going back into lockdown - friend of mine over there posted on Facebook that it's on a 'parish' level and his parish is one of them.
Yep, the decline in cases stopped as soon the government permitted reopening. The virus has now spread into the outskirts of Lisbon, where tourists don't go but where most of the workers in newly-opened shops and restaurants live, and seems to be reaching Lisbon-level infection rates now. My parish has similar demographics, but it's south of the river and so far so good - but it does seem the unlockdown here was a bit hasty (although the country is pretty broke too).
He (and family) are in Algueirão, my geography of Portugal is practically non-existent...

On shpalman's point - I think the government should have been much firmer on masks earlier. So many people have gone out without them for so long it'll be an effort to overcome their, unsurprising, thought that "why should they have to change as they've been ok so far?"

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Re: Covid-19 the unlockdown

Post by shpalman » Fri Jun 26, 2020 2:20 pm

shpalman wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 12:17 pm
... apart from Boston, where you are more likely to die from either covid or stabbing by the look of it...
Turns out you're quite likely to be stabbed in Bournemouth too.

Honestly people will stop needing a nanny state when they stop behaving like toddlers.
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Re: Covid-19 the unlockdown

Post by EACLucifer » Fri Jun 26, 2020 2:30 pm

lpm wrote:
Thu Jun 25, 2020 10:02 pm
EACLucifer wrote:
Thu Jun 25, 2020 9:02 pm
lpm wrote:
Thu Jun 25, 2020 8:28 pm
The government was just as sh.t in March - but we as a society came together to shut down. Traffic data shows the decline well ahead of the official 23 March lockdown.

There's always alternative leadership to be found. We rallied around some old bloke walking round his garden. A young footballer defeated the government. We have royals with immense celeb power. And when there are no leaders, there can still be a protest spanning the country and bringing down statues.

Government failure isn't an excuse. This is a highly educated and wealthy country, benefiting from decades of peace and democracy. If everyone can f.cking clap on Thursday evenings, we combine on agreed strategies.
Then stop bitching about it on a forum where we're basically all in agreement and doing something in your community, or, if you already are, then perhaps you could explain what it is you are doing so as to serve as an example for others.
You missed the point, it was way over there.
I was quite aware of what you were saying, thank you. I just wasn't remotely impressed by it. Don't have a go at people worried about government failure then offer absolutely nothing to counteract that.
This requires unconventional politics. This government does not respond to usual methods. It doesn't care about tabloid criticism, is openly incompetent, just says we're moving on when it wants to stifle opposition. Failure of government is a given.
Yeah. We know. Some of us are trying to do something about that. We aren't expecting the government's strategy to shift, we are bypassing it entirely and reaching out directly to our communities. Obviously, with the government so wildly committed to being wrong, it's an uphill battle, and we only have so much reach, but some of us are using what reach we have. The more people that do so, the more people are reached. Masks with information leaflets through the letter box might not do that much on their own, and yet I see people out and about wearing the masks we made, and know it did a little.

Anyone here with the time and skill should be doing likewise. The worst that could happen is you look a little weird, the best that could happen is you save lives.
And yet there is huge potential for new politics, bypassing government politics.
This is not about politics, by any usual definition of the term. I'm talking about direct, non-ideological, practical action.

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Re: Covid-19 the unlockdown

Post by discovolante » Sun Jun 28, 2020 11:14 am

don't get any big ideas, they're not gonna happen

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