Chinese politics and response to COVID-19

[EACLucifer]

Cinemas and nightclubs I can understand.

I really wonder if there is a lot of transmission outside. One virus particle can infect. It can last in air for over 3 hours.
Outside, breezes and wind can create a plume of viruses , for many metres.

China has the best results and they insisted on locking people right inside their dwellings. Outside air is dangerous.

Stationery shops are likely fairly safe.

China has admitted to thousands of deaths, and there's almost certainly many more than they have admitted to.

South Korea has somewhere in the region of 200. South Korea's had it plenty long enough to have hit catastrophic levels, and yet managed to get their infection rate into decline. What's more, they did it without having to disappear any critics, or intimidate any doctor whistleblowers.

The virus is resurging in South Korea, so it doesn't look as rosy as it did last week.

Here's some actual numbers. Note logarithmic scale.



Note that it's almost certain China has radically understated numbers - evidence from crematorium demand suggests by as much as an order of magnitude. Other nations have likely undercounted when underwhelmed - but they don't disappear people for questioning the government's lies.

And South Korea hasn't been overwhelmed, so there figures are probably actually true.

China is a grotesque state, perpetrator of numerous human rights abuses including ongoing attempts to destroy an entire culture. Regarding their handling of this virus, aside from causing it in the first place by ignoring the known immense risks and the warning they should have got when they caused the original SARS outbreak, they have also disappeared doctors (e.g. Dr. Ai Fen), destroyed samples and suppressed news as far back as december and continue to suppress research, coupled with strongarming the WHO to pretend it wasn't being transmitted person to person using tactics only available to regimes known to be willing to be evil*, and are now leveraging racism to scapegoat black people, all the while bullying one of the nations most successful at doing this - hint - Taiwan isn't on that chart because they've only had six deaths in total.

So let me make this clear; China did not handle this best. China is not a state to be applauded or defended. If you continue to repeat their stupid talking points (the "the US is failing and won't it be wonderful when China's the top nation" b.llsh.t you posted on threads re American politics), all you are doing is showing that you are on the side of the dictators, the racists, the ethnic cleansers, the liars, the abusers of people both within their country and beyond. You should expect to be treated accordingly.

And if you think it's funny and are just doing it as a windup, consider that puts you in the category of sh.tty teenagers who think upsetting people with swastikas is clever.

*The US is unlikely to disengage from the WHO because it would be very controversial domestically, but even if they did, it would have limited impact on the WHO's access to data from the US as the US has a free press. Not so totalitarian China.

[Herainestold]

I thought about going to China, it seemed the only place that might be safe, but then they stopped issuing visas.

[JQH]

I thought about going to China, it seemed the only place that might be safe, but then they stopped issuing visas.

If anyone else had posted this I would assume they were joking. Given your previously expressed enthusiasm for the PRC regime, I'm somewhat less certain.

Also South Korea and Taiwan might be safer bets.

[Herainestold]

I thought about going to China, it seemed the only place that might be safe, but then they stopped issuing visas.

If anyone else had posted this I would assume they were joking. Given your previously expressed enthusiasm for the PRC regime, I'm somewhat less certain.

Also South Korea and Taiwan might be safer bets.

I've spent time in China before and I have contacts there.

China has made mistakes but there is a lot of anti-China bias around. People in democracies fail to give non-democracies credit for when they get things right.

Right now I can't see how this is going to end here. I look at China and I see them ending their lockdowns, but hampered by imported cases.

[EACLucifer]

I thought about going to China, it seemed the only place that might be safe, but then they stopped issuing visas.

Aww, what a shame. I hope they change their mind.

While you are there, perhaps you could ask;

Why they are censoring Dr. Ai Fen's take on what went wrong in Wuhan
Why they have just arrested a whole bunch of people in Hong Kong for (quite rightly) liking democracy and disagreeing with tyranny
Why they lied to the world and still claimed there was not human to human transmission after they knew there was
Why they strongarmed the WHO into pretending Taiwan does not exist, even though Taiwan did a far better job of both controlling the disease and informing the WHO
Why they ignored the obvious lessons of the original SARS outbreak - something else they tried to cover up with disastrous consequences
Why they are bulldozing mosques and graveyards in Dzungaria
Why they are forcing Uighurs into camps simply because of their race and religion
Why they arrested an education campaigner for asking schools to teach children in Tibet their own language
Why they think existing maritime law does not apply to them and why they made comedically unjustifiable claims over seas hundreds of miles from their own shores
Why they have sought to scapegoat foreigners - especially people of African descent - for a pandemic caused by their own ignorant and dangerous practises and coverup


Anyway, hope it goes better for you than William Joyce and Malcolm Caldwell's attempts to visit the vile totalitarian regimes they shilled for.

[EACLucifer]

I thought about going to China, it seemed the only place that might be safe, but then they stopped issuing visas.

If anyone else had posted this I would assume they were joking. Given your previously expressed enthusiasm for the PRC regime, I'm somewhat less certain.

Also South Korea and Taiwan might be safer bets.

I've spent time in China before and I have contacts there.

China has made mistakes but there is a lot of anti-China bias around. People in democracies fail to give non-democracies credit for when they get things right.

This was very likely by China's tolerance of the dangerous and appallingly unethical trade in wild animals to cater to the ridiculous and superstitious belief in traditional Chinese "medicine". Add to that, had it not been covered up initially - complete with regime thugs sent to threaten their own nation's doctors for warning people online - it could potentially have been contained.

And it's not like they didn't know how it would go - the original SARS outbreak was very much the same.

As for your explicit apologia for anti-democratic regimes, you are - at best - on the same level as the western idiots who fawned over the Societ Union during the holodomor.

Right now I can't see how this is going to end here. I look at China and I see them ending their lockdowns, but hampered by imported cases.

Meanwhile, those of us not born yesterday have taken the time to check what people in China are saying; not only do numbers of deaths not remotely add up, as shown by crematorium demand, and so on, but during the point the fascist Chinese regime was claiming to have no domestic cases, brave dissidents were reporting continued evidence of transmission within China.

Once again, you are merely repeating the propaganda of a fascist state. Much like toddlers and Donald Trump, nothing can ever be their fault in their eyes, hence the attempts to claim they had fully controlled it, but then were let down by the rest of the world - even though the rest of the world would have had much less chance of being a reservoir for infection had China not originally caused then covered up the outbreak.

[Millennie Al]

Re China...

Why they have just arrested a whole bunch of people in Hong Kong for (quite rightly) liking democracy and disagreeing with tyranny

Obviously nobody has been arrested for what they like or disagreeing with anyone. They have been arrested for protesting in the streets. Note that in the UK protests near Parliament were effectively banned by the Serious Organised Crime and Police Act 2005 which was then used to attempt (unsuccessfully) to stop Brian Haw's ongoing protest. Don't expect China to have a higher standard of upholding human rights than the UK. If the protests in Hong Kong had happened in the UK they would have been banned a long time ago.

Why they strongarmed the WHO into pretending Taiwan does not exist, even though Taiwan did a far better job of both controlling the disease and
informing the WHO

China has never claimed that Taiwan does not exist. While Taiwan certainly did very well against Covid-19, it had the advantage initialy that all cases were imported. Outside Hubei, where Covid-19 was first found, the other provinces in China seem to be doing about as well as Taiwan. The point about informing the WHO might carry some weight if other nations had reacted to the news when it was released. As we have seen around the world, most countries paid no attention until later when the number of cases had risen substantially.

Why they ignored the obvious lessons of the original SARS outbreak - something else they tried to cover up with disastrous consequences

Their successful suppression of the disease shows that they clearly did learn the lessions, which obviously was not the case for other countries which not only could have learned from SARS, but also could have learned from China's successful measures.

Why they have sought to scapegoat foreigners - especially people of African descent - for a pandemic caused by their own ignorant and dangerous practises and coverup

Like calling it the "Wuhan virus" or claiming it was created deliberately, or escaped from a lab?

Anyway, hope it goes better for you than William Joyce and Malcolm Caldwell's attempts to visit the vile totalitarian regimes they shilled for.

Considering that William Joyce was hanged by the British on bogus grounds, he's a very strange example to use.

[Herainestold]

China has never claimed that Taiwan does not exist. While Taiwan certainly did very well against Covid-19, it had the advantage initialy that all cases were imported. Outside Hubei, where Covid-19 was first found, the other provinces in China seem to be doing about as well as Taiwan. The point about informing the WHO might carry some weight if other nations had reacted to the news when it was released. As we have seen around the world, most countries paid no attention until later when the number of cases had risen substantially.

Why they ignored the obvious lessons of the original SARS outbreak - something else they tried to cover up with disastrous consequences

Their successful suppression of the disease shows that they clearly did learn the lessions, which obviously was not the case for other countries which not only could have learned from SARS, but also could have learned from China's successful measures.

Why they have sought to scapegoat foreigners - especially people of African descent - for a pandemic caused by their own ignorant and dangerous practises and coverup

Like calling it the "Wuhan virus" or claiming it was created deliberately, or escaped from a lab?

Anyway, hope it goes better for you than William Joyce and Malcolm Caldwell's attempts to visit the vile totalitarian regimes they shilled for.

Considering that William Joyce was hanged by the British on bogus grounds, he's a very strange example to use.

Lucifer you should visit China and see for yourself. I 've been there a couple of times and lived there briefly.
They did do a good job of containment and treatment, once they got organized and put their mind to it. Certainly much better than some countries I could name.
The important point is dealing with a resurgence after the initial surge is suppressed. Thats what China is dealing with now, imported cases. We can watch out what they are doing and learn. Mandatory quarantines for people coming from abroad, constant testing and tracking, and use of phone apps to record peoples travel and contacts, use of a green code to allow entrance to restauran ts and public places. Things like that.

[EACLucifer]

Re China...

Why they have just arrested a whole bunch of people in Hong Kong for (quite rightly) liking democracy and disagreeing with tyranny

Obviously nobody has been arrested for what they like or disagreeing with anyone. They have been arrested for protesting in the streets. Note that in the UK protests near Parliament were effectively banned by the Serious Organised Crime and Police Act 2005 which was then used to attempt (unsuccessfully) to stop Brian Haw's ongoing protest. Don't expect China to have a higher standard of upholding human rights than the UK. If the protests in Hong Kong had happened in the UK they would have been banned a long time ago.

The degree of ignorance and stupidity required for this level of whataboutery is so breathtaking I can only conclude it is the result of heavy drinking.

They declared the constitution of Hong Kong didn't apply to them, and arrested over a dozen people for having taken part in a single march last year, including the author of that constitution.

By contrast, major protest marches are normal and common in the UK, indeed we have a number of open separatist movements.

Comparing the (relatively) tiniest imperfections of the UK with the gross abuses of huma rights in China is spectacular in its ignorance and dishonesty. It's like claiming that because the UK has not completely eliminated racism, one cannot then criticise China for bulldozing mosques and graveyards and forcing hundreds of thousands of people into camps in an attempt to destroy their culture.

Why they strongarmed the WHO into pretending Taiwan does not exist, even though Taiwan did a far better job of both controlling the disease and
informing the WHO

China has never claimed that Taiwan does not exist. While Taiwan certainly did very well against Covid-19, it had the advantage initialy that all cases were imported. Outside Hubei, where Covid-19 was first found, the other provinces in China seem to be doing about as well as Taiwan. The point about informing the WHO might carry some weight if other nations had reacted to the news when it was released. As we have seen around the world, most countries paid no attention until later when the number of cases had risen substantially.

Maybe you missed the interview where the representative of the WHO pretended not to hear when Taiwan was mentioned, then claimed he didn't need the question restated, then hung up?

Why they ignored the obvious lessons of the original SARS outbreak - something else they tried to cover up with disastrous consequences

Their successful suppression of the disease shows that they clearly did learn the lessions, which obviously was not the case for other countries which not only could have learned from SARS, but also could have learned from China's successful measures.

As with the original SARS outbreak, they suppressed news and intimidated doctors until after the disease had already spread beyond their borders, allowing the outbreak to spread. Without that initial denial and supression of truth, we may never have had to learn how other countries would handle it at all.

Why they have sought to scapegoat foreigners - especially people of African descent - for a pandemic caused by their own ignorant and dangerous practises and coverup

Like calling it the "Wuhan virus" or claiming it was created deliberately, or escaped from a lab?

Is all you have whataboutery? This is uttererly pathetic, whatever store inside your brain where you keep your arguments is clearly empty. Yes, there are cranks out there, oddly enough, when they aren't in China, people don't seem to have trouble donemning them. Chinese officials spread conspiracy theories claiming it started outside of China, calling it the "USA virus", etc - at least those calling it Wuhan virus are accurate as to the place of origin.

There is no parallel whatsoever between unpleasant words and the scapegoating of Black people in China recently, including evictions, and repeated, filmed cases of people being refused entry to businesses because of the colour of their skin.

[EACLucifer]

China has never claimed that Taiwan does not exist. While Taiwan certainly did very well against Covid-19, it had the advantage initialy that all cases were imported. Outside Hubei, where Covid-19 was first found, the other provinces in China seem to be doing about as well as Taiwan. The point about informing the WHO might carry some weight if other nations had reacted to the news when it was released. As we have seen around the world, most countries paid no attention until later when the number of cases had risen substantially.

Why they ignored the obvious lessons of the original SARS outbreak - something else they tried to cover up with disastrous consequences

Their successful suppression of the disease shows that they clearly did learn the lessions, which obviously was not the case for other countries which not only could have learned from SARS, but also could have learned from China's successful measures.

Why they have sought to scapegoat foreigners - especially people of African descent - for a pandemic caused by their own ignorant and dangerous practises and coverup

Like calling it the "Wuhan virus" or claiming it was created deliberately, or escaped from a lab?

Anyway, hope it goes better for you than William Joyce and Malcolm Caldwell's attempts to visit the vile totalitarian regimes they shilled for.

Considering that William Joyce was hanged by the British on bogus grounds, he's a very strange example to use.

Lucifer you should visit China and see for yourself.

You really don't get it, do you? Why the f.ck would I visit a regime that has forced hundreds of thousands of people into camps in a concerted and deliberate attempt to destroy their culture?

I've not been a demo in donkeys years, mostly because of my health, but I still consider myself an antifascist, and that means never supporting, and always opposing, fascists. It really is that simple. China is a horrific abuser of human rights

I've been there a couple of times and lived there briefly.

Yeah, you've already told us you are ok with fascism. No need to repeat the credentials.

To add to that - there's plenty of people who visited Moscow in the 20s and 30s who were happy to repeat that they had seen no famines. Likewise Germany in the 30s and repressions - the Gestapo hadn't come for them, so why did they care? That? That's you, that is.

As for tactics, there's many regimes did better, indeed South Korea did a radically better job, and still managed elections.

Now how about addressing some of the points I made re: China's behaviour over the last few years?

[Woodchopper]

I've set up a new thread for this discussion which was in the unlockdown thread

[Herainestold]

WHY Can't the WORLD do what CHINA did?

Lucifer, you might be interested in watching this

[EACLucifer]

WHY Can't the WORLD do what CHINA did?

Lucifer, you might be interested in watching this

f.ck off and stop posting fascist apologia.

China has forced hundreds of thousands into camps solely for their race. I challenged you on this, and you ignored it.

China has reneged on the agreement to respect Hong Kong for what it is, declared the Basic Law does not apply to it, and arrested a number of elderly people for going on a single peaceful protest. I challenged you on this, and you ignored it.

China has scapegoated Black people for a pandemic of their own making, with restaurants saying government ordered them to deny service to Black people, as well as evictions. I challenged you on this, and you ignored it.

Evidently, like most fascist apologists, you are a coward.

Their are many nations that have done a much better job than China - South Korea, New Zealand, Australia, Taiwan, Norway, and others.

So long as you continue to regurgitate the propaganda of a fascist, imperialist, racist regime, nobody here should treat you, or a single word you post, with anything but contempt.

[Herainestold]

WHY Can't the WORLD do what CHINA did?

Lucifer, you might be interested in watching this

Is it because the WORLD spends TEN MINUTES to say there's going to be a LIVE STREAM?

Ya, it is a bit much.

I thought some might be interested,but if not, so be it.

[EACLucifer]

WHY Can't the WORLD do what CHINA did?

Lucifer, you might be interested in watching this

Is it because the WORLD spends TEN MINUTES to say there's going to be a LIVE STREAM?

Ya, it is a bit much.

I thought some might be interested,but if not, so be it.

There's some questions for you waiting, you know, you fascist shill.

Why are you happy promoting a regime that has just arrested a number of elderly, nonviolent people for attending a single peaceful protest last year?

How does your conscience sit with parroting the propaganda of a regime that has bulldozed places of worship and graveyards and forced hundreds of thousands into camps based on nothing more than their ethnicity in a concerted attempt to destroy their culture?

[Cardinal Fang]

Obviously nobody has been arrested for what they like or disagreeing with anyone. They have been arrested for protesting in the streets. Note that in the UK protests near Parliament were effectively banned by the Serious Organised Crime and Police Act 2005 which was then used to attempt (unsuccessfully) to stop Brian Haw's ongoing protest. Don't expect China to have a higher standard of upholding human rights than the UK. If the protests in Hong Kong had happened in the UK they would have been banned a long time ago.

Not entirely true. Yes SOCPA was brought in to try and get rid of Brian Haw (well sections 132-136). The courts basically ruled that as he started his protest before SOCPA . If you wanted to protest within a mile of Parliament you had to apply for permission 6 days in advance. Crucially though, the police couldn't refuse to give permission (as that would break UK and European human rights legislation), just put restrictions on it (which were challengable, as if the restrictions had the same effect as to prohibit a demonstration, then it similarly would have fallen foul of human rights legistlation). The Chinese Government can refuse to give permission, and their decisions cannot be challenged. The other thing is that sections 132-136 have been repealed.

CF

[Millennie Al]

Lucifer you should visit China and see for yourself.

You really don't get it, do you? Why the f.ck would I visit a regime that has forced hundreds of thousands of people into camps in a concerted and deliberate attempt to destroy their culture?

Unless you're a head of state, diplomat, or suchlike, you cannot visit a regime. You can visit people and places.

It is claimed that travel broadens the mind, so it would be very beneficial for anyone with a tendency to vitriolic ranting about evil foreigners.

[Millennie Al]

Obviously nobody has been arrested for what they like or disagreeing with anyone. They have been arrested for protesting in the streets. Note that in the UK protests near Parliament were effectively banned by the Serious Organised Crime and Police Act 2005 which was then used to attempt (unsuccessfully) to stop Brian Haw's ongoing protest. Don't expect China to have a higher standard of upholding human rights than the UK. If the protests in Hong Kong had happened in the UK they would have been banned a long time ago.

Not entirely true. Yes SOCPA was brought in to try and get rid of Brian Haw (well sections 132-136). The courts basically ruled that as he started his protest before SOCPA . If you wanted to protest within a mile of Parliament you had to apply for permission 6 days in advance. Crucially though, the police couldn't refuse to give permission (as that would break UK and European human rights legislation), just put restrictions on it (which were challengable, as if the restrictions had the same effect as to prohibit a demonstration, then it similarly would have fallen foul of human rights legistlation). The Chinese Government can refuse to give permission, and their decisions cannot be challenged. The other thing is that sections 132-136 have been repealed.

Well, as always, life is complicated. That part of SOCPA was indeed repealed by the Police Reform and Social Responsibility Act 2011 but that then contained measures clearly intended to get rid of Brian Haw, and they would have succeeded had he lived long enough for them to be used on him.

The police can always refuse permission by citing appropriate grounds which would be difficult to refute. Such as that a gathering would be likely to provoke confrontational violence and disorder. Even things which fall foul of human rights legislation can prove very difficult to avoid - for example the issue of votes for prisoners was held to contravene human rights in 2005 and still has not been properly remedied.

Realistically, regardless of the law, a protest is only allowed if it is ineffective or such enormous support that it is impractical to stop it. Otherwise some pretext will be found to prevent it.

[JQH]

Lucifer you should visit China and see for yourself.

You really don't get it, do you? Why the f.ck would I visit a regime that has forced hundreds of thousands of people into camps in a concerted and deliberate attempt to destroy their culture?

Unless you're a head of state, diplomat, or suchlike, you cannot visit a regime. You can visit people and places.

It is claimed that travel broadens the mind, so it would be very beneficial for anyone with a tendency to vitriolic ranting about evil foreigners.

Fortunately there's no such ranting on here.