International travel

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sTeamTraen
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Re: International travel

Post by sTeamTraen » Wed Apr 07, 2021 4:50 pm

OffTheRock wrote:
Tue Apr 06, 2021 9:41 pm
Although tbf this isn’t helped by a number of people not realising the Channel Islands are not part of the U.K. and have a different government.
"Yebbut they're still English, right?" :roll:
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Re: International travel

Post by Hunting Dog » Fri Apr 09, 2021 5:43 pm

UK Newspapers seem to be having another round of articles acting as though having one or two cheap holidays abroad each year is a human right, and it would therefore be 'discriminatory' to make people pay a lot for Covid tests.

I'm getting frustrated that no one seems to be taking the opportunity to question whether having people able to pay £20 for an overseas flight for a stag night etc. was ever really that good an idea for the planet or the destination and whether it might be better not to support a return to the previous 'normal'.

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Re: International travel

Post by Herainestold » Fri Apr 09, 2021 5:47 pm

Hunting Dog wrote:
Fri Apr 09, 2021 5:43 pm
UK Newspapers seem to be having another round of articles acting as though having one or two cheap holidays abroad each year is a human right, and it would therefore be 'discriminatory' to make people pay a lot for Covid tests.

I'm getting frustrated that no one seems to be taking the opportunity to question whether having people able to pay £20 for an overseas flight for a stag night etc. was ever really that good an idea for the planet or the destination and whether it might be better not to support a return to the previous 'normal'.
International travel as we thought of it pre-pandemic, is dead. It is probably better for the planet anyway.
Double dose. Double mask. Double distance

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Re: International travel

Post by bolo » Fri Apr 09, 2021 6:33 pm

Like the Python parrot, it's not dead, it's only resting.

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Re: International travel

Post by Herainestold » Fri Apr 09, 2021 8:06 pm

bolo wrote:
Fri Apr 09, 2021 6:33 pm
Like the Python parrot, it's not dead, it's only resting.
Well, maybe. Time will tell. I'd like to travel as much as anyone but I am not making any plans.
In fact,I am not even hoping for it much anymore.

A friend said she was going to get the vaccine because she wanted to travel.

I said I got it because I wanred to stay alive.
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Re: International travel

Post by shpalman » Mon Apr 12, 2021 8:30 am

The fault is probably with the edgelord journalist rather than the well akshully psychologists and behavioural scientists, but
wot they reckon is that covid-status certificates could lead to deliberate infections.

The not-peer-reviewed preprint is Behavioural responses to Covid-19 health certification: A rapid review.
The potential benefits of certificates, such as enabling people to go to events and travel more freely and safely, need to be considered in the context of their potential for harm, say the authors, “but the nature and scale of these remains uncertain. Also uncertain is how any harms might most effectively be mitigated.”
Well here's an idea: how about you f.cking consider them, then. And get a clue about the nature and scale too and whether it's more or less than the potential benefits? Isn't it your f.cking job to figure that out?
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Re: International travel

Post by Herainestold » Mon Apr 12, 2021 2:10 pm

Flying is still dangerous, even for vaccinated people.
"Vaccinated people could potentially still get COVID-19 and spread it to others," according to the CDC, as respiratory droplets fall onto surfaces or float in the air. "We're still learning how well COVID-19 vaccines keep people from spreading the disease," the agency added.
Early in the pandemic, according to a CDC investigation, an unmasked passenger with no symptoms infected 12 fellow business class travelers, two people seated in economy and one crew member on a 10-hour international flight.
Last summer, 13 asymptomatic people on an international flight into Ireland infected another 46 people in six regions of the country, despite some use of masks on the plane. And in September, nine people tested positive after a flight from India to New Zealand, despite the fact that masks were mandatory on the plane.
https://www.cnn.com/travel/article/flyi ... index.html
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Re: International travel

Post by Herainestold » Mon Apr 12, 2021 2:15 pm

My two favourite countries (outside UK), Australia and China are both covid free. China is starting to open international travel.
China is making it easier for foreigners to enter the country. But there's one condition: they need to have received a China-made Covid-19 vaccine.

At least 23 Chinese embassies around the world issued new visa policies over the past week with this condition, including in the United States and United Kingdom -- both places where Chinese vaccines aren't available.
China's foreign ministry says the move is about kick-starting international travel in an "orderly fashion," and vaccinated travelers will still face state-run quarantine on arrival.
https://www.cnn.com/travel/article/covi ... index.html
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Re: International travel

Post by shpalman » Mon Apr 12, 2021 2:50 pm

Herainestold wrote:
Mon Apr 12, 2021 2:10 pm
Flying is still dangerous, even for vaccinated people.
"Vaccinated people could potentially still get COVID-19 and spread it to others," according to the CDC, as respiratory droplets fall onto surfaces or float in the air. "We're still learning how well COVID-19 vaccines keep people from spreading the disease," the agency added.
Early in the pandemic, according to a CDC investigation, an unmasked and unvaccinated passenger with no symptoms infected 12 fellow unvaccinated business class travelers, two unvaccinated people seated in economy and one unvaccinated crew member on a 10-hour international flight.
Last summer, 13 asymptomatic and unvaccinated people on an international flight into Ireland infected another unvaccinated 46 people in six regions of the country, despite some use of masks on the plane but no use of vaccines. And in September, nine people unvaccinated tested positive after a flight from India to New Zealand, despite the fact that masks were mandatory on the plane but vaccines weren't because they hadn't been invented yet. Still, this tells us something useful about vaccinations apparently.
https://www.cnn.com/travel/article/flyi ... index.html
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Re: International travel

Post by Herainestold » Mon Apr 12, 2021 6:29 pm

shpalman wrote:
Mon Apr 12, 2021 2:50 pm
Herainestold wrote:
Mon Apr 12, 2021 2:10 pm
Flying is still dangerous, even for vaccinated people.
"Vaccinated people could potentially still get COVID-19 and spread it to others," according to the CDC, as respiratory droplets fall onto surfaces or float in the air. "We're still learning how well COVID-19 vaccines keep people from spreading the disease," the agency added.
Early in the pandemic, according to a CDC investigation, an unmasked and unvaccinated passenger with no symptoms infected 12 fellow unvaccinated business class travelers, two unvaccinated people seated in economy and one unvaccinated crew member on a 10-hour international flight.
Last summer, 13 asymptomatic and unvaccinated people on an international flight into Ireland infected another unvaccinated 46 people in six regions of the country, despite some use of masks on the plane but no use of vaccines. And in September, nine people unvaccinated tested positive after a flight from India to New Zealand, despite the fact that masks were mandatory on the plane but vaccines weren't because they hadn't been invented yet. Still, this tells us something useful about vaccinations apparently.
https://www.cnn.com/travel/article/flyi ... index.html
And your point is what?
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Re: International travel

Post by shpalman » Mon Apr 12, 2021 6:34 pm

My point is that anecdotes about unvaccinated people catching covid on flights tells us literally nothing about whether vaccinated people will catch or spread covid on flights.

Except in the sense that vaccination does not give 100% protection and we still don't know to what extent it makes a person less infectious, which we already knew and has got nothing to do with flights in particular.
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Re: International travel

Post by Herainestold » Mon Apr 12, 2021 6:47 pm

shpalman wrote:
Mon Apr 12, 2021 6:34 pm
My point is that anecdotes about unvaccinated people catching covid on flights tells us literally nothing about whether vaccinated people will catch or spread covid on flights.

Except in the sense that vaccination does not give 100% protection and we still don't know to what extent it makes a person less infectious, which we already knew and has got nothing to do with flights in particular.
Well if vaccine protection is 90%, 10% of the passengers could become infected.
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Re: International travel

Post by shpalman » Mon Apr 12, 2021 6:54 pm

It's not like 100% of the passengers got infected in those cases. Vaccines make everything safer but nothing perfectly safe.
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Re: International travel

Post by Herainestold » Wed Apr 14, 2021 3:02 am

shpalman wrote:
Mon Apr 12, 2021 6:54 pm
It's not like 100% of the passengers got infected in those cases. Vaccines make everything safer but nothing perfectly safe.
The vaccine will -most of the time- keep you fron dying, but its less effective against moderat or mild illness and its effect on asymptomatic illness is unknown but probably low. It protects against infection but not against transmission. So it doesn't help much for herd immunity. If large scale air travel resumes 10-20% of the passengers will be infected and carrying those infections to new places. It could be a big disaster.
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Re: International travel

Post by shpalman » Wed Apr 14, 2021 9:11 am

Herainestold wrote:
Wed Apr 14, 2021 3:02 am
shpalman wrote:
Mon Apr 12, 2021 6:54 pm
It's not like 100% of the passengers got infected in those cases. Vaccines make everything safer but nothing perfectly safe.
The vaccine will -most of the time- keep you fron dying, but its less effective against moderat or mild illness and its effect on asymptomatic illness is unknown but probably low. It protects against infection but not against transmission. So it doesn't help much for herd immunity. If large scale air travel resumes 10-20% of the passengers will be infected and carrying those infections to new places. It could be a big disaster.
Yes, this is true, and it's why vaccinated British tourists can't come to the continent until we're all vaccinated here too, for example.

But you could have just said that instead of including some quote about people with or without masks getting infected on flights.

(In Italy the tourism sector is asking for priority for vaccines, along with every other sector, whereas Italy is finally trying to prioritise "the old and fragile", while of course I'm being hypocritical, having gotten myself vaccinated as a "teacher" on the first day that I could despite being neither old nor fragile when I might have about 8 hours in total in a lecture theater in May.)
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Re: International travel

Post by basementer » Mon Apr 19, 2021 6:27 pm

I've just realised that planes flying over my suburb at 6 am, heading for Australia, have just become a regular thing again. I'd become used to the quiet.
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Re: International travel

Post by shpalman » Thu Apr 29, 2021 8:00 pm

Easyjet urges UK to put most of Europe on ‘green’ Covid travel list because of course it does.
EasyJet said research commissioned from epidemiologists at Yale University in the US showed unrestricted travel from much of Europe would increase hospital admissions by 4%, or six cases in the UK on the current daily average.
The number of cases which travel from Europe would let into the UK depends on the case rate in Europe, not in the UK, so it makes no sense to give the answer in terms of a percentage.

And then, even vaccinated UK travellers will bring some covids with them into not-so-vaccinated Europe.
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Re: International travel

Post by Herainestold » Thu Apr 29, 2021 8:36 pm

shpalman wrote:
Thu Apr 29, 2021 8:00 pm
Easyjet urges UK to put most of Europe on ‘green’ Covid travel list because of course it does.
EasyJet said research commissioned from epidemiologists at Yale University in the US showed unrestricted travel from much of Europe would increase hospital admissions by 4%, or six cases in the UK on the current daily average.
The number of cases which travel from Europe would let into the UK depends on the case rate in Europe, not in the UK, so it makes no sense to give the answer in terms of a percentage.

And then, even vaccinated UK travellers will bring some covids with them into not-so-vaccinated Europe.
The only places you should be allowed to travel are places with no covid. Australia and China. Israel. Those countries won't won't let us in anyway.
So stay home.
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Re: International travel

Post by shpalman » Sat May 01, 2021 7:27 am

Dave Keating on "vaccine passports" https://twitter.com/DaveKeating/status/ ... 23106?s=19
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Re: International travel

Post by shpalman » Mon May 03, 2021 6:13 am

molto tricky

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Re: International travel

Post by Martin_B » Mon May 03, 2021 8:32 am

As far as I'm aware, a fairly substantial part of the advertising income of the Mail (and presumably other right-wing papers) comes (or maybe these days only came) from advertising foreign holidays/cruises. I wonder how this is going to play out. :popcorn:
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Re: International travel

Post by shpalman » Mon May 03, 2021 10:29 am

Martin_B wrote:
Mon May 03, 2021 8:32 am
As far as I'm aware, a fairly substantial part of the advertising income of the Mail (and presumably other right-wing papers) comes (or maybe these days only came) from advertising foreign holidays/cruises. I wonder how this is going to play out. :popcorn:
Cruise ships are giant petri dishes for disease even when there isn't a pandemic. Let it sink.

The idea of putting all the older Mail readers on a boat together and letting covid sort them out isn't actually a good idea.
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Re: International travel

Post by Herainestold » Mon May 03, 2021 2:33 pm

I would concur. Look at what is happening in India. Do we want to import that variant ?
We need to await the next round of vaccinations which have been tweaked to stop that variant. If possible.
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Re: International travel

Post by headshot » Mon May 03, 2021 4:18 pm

Herainestold wrote:
Mon May 03, 2021 2:33 pm
I would concur. Look at what is happening in India. Do we want to import that variant?
We already have.
Herainestold wrote:
Mon May 03, 2021 2:33 pm
We need to await the next round of vaccinations which have been tweaked to stop that variant. If possible.
Does the India variant sidestep current vaccines? I read somewhere that it doesn’t, but I’m not sure if I dreamt it.

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