International travel

Covid-19 discussion, bring your own statistics
User avatar
Bird on a Fire
Light of Blast
Posts: 6380
Joined: Fri Oct 11, 2019 5:05 pm
Location: Iceland

Re: International travel

Post by Bird on a Fire » Wed Jun 30, 2021 11:02 am

wilsontown wrote:
Wed Jun 30, 2021 10:58 am
I'd have thought that one thing the pandemic had made clear is that there is no need to waste time and money sending people all over the world for face to face meetings given the available technology.
Yeah, business travel seems like it should be completely replaced with zoom. It's certainly a lower priority than visiting family or friends, and possibly a lower priority than just having a nice holiday, because those things don't translate well to doing it online from your house.
He has the grace of a swan, the wisdom of an owl, and the eye of an eagle—ladies and gentlemen, this man is for the birds!

OffTheRock
Clardic Fug
Posts: 177
Joined: Mon Dec 02, 2019 6:52 pm

Re: International travel

Post by OffTheRock » Wed Jun 30, 2021 12:14 pm

2000 Scottish cases linked to watching the Euros

2/3 of those had travelled to London to watch the England v Scotland game. Bet the Italians are glad they put that quarantine in.

User avatar
shpalman
Light of Blast
Posts: 4912
Joined: Mon Nov 11, 2019 12:53 pm
Location: One step beyond

Re: International travel

Post by shpalman » Wed Jun 30, 2021 12:28 pm

OffTheRock wrote:
Wed Jun 30, 2021 12:14 pm
2000 Scottish cases linked to watching the Euros

2/3 of those had travelled to London to watch the England v Scotland game. Bet the Italians are glad they put that quarantine in.
Might as well lift that Manchester travel ban then.
molto tricky

User avatar
wilsontown
Sindis Poop
Posts: 71
Joined: Tue Feb 23, 2021 11:51 am

Re: International travel

Post by wilsontown » Wed Jun 30, 2021 12:56 pm

I have a ticket for the rugby league challenge cup final at Wembley on July 17th (had one from last year that I rolled over). I won't be going, though. Although I'll have had two jabs by then I won't have had them for two weeks. I wouldn't be too worried about sitting at Wembley in a socially distanced crowd in the fresh air, but it's getting there in the first place that I'd be more concerned about. Train journey to London, stay overnight in hotel, tube to Wembley and back to central London, visit pub(s), dinner at restaurant, another night at a hotel and finally a train journey back home. Given that the teams playing are from Castleford, St. Helens, York and Featherstone which all have high case numbers at the moment it just doesn't seem like a good idea. I wouldn't be too worried about getting covid myself, but I'd like to avoid giving it to anyone else.
"All models are wrong but some are useful" - George Box

User avatar
sTeamTraen
After Pie
Posts: 1973
Joined: Mon Nov 11, 2019 4:24 pm
Location: Palma de Mallorca, Spain

Re: International travel

Post by sTeamTraen » Wed Jun 30, 2021 1:08 pm

badger wrote:
Wed Jun 30, 2021 10:37 am
sTeamTraen wrote:
Wed Jun 30, 2021 10:18 am
At least it seems they let him into the EU. But unless he got on TUI at 0600 this morning, he may be waiting a bit. The next direct flight from Brussels to Palma doesn't seem to be until 1320 tomorrow with Ryanair. :(
yep, I think he's on that one tomorrow, but personally I think that's a better outcome and hope he does too (assuming he makes it there).
Well, there are worse places to sit out a pandemic. View from my balcony.
Something something hammer something something nail

User avatar
sTeamTraen
After Pie
Posts: 1973
Joined: Mon Nov 11, 2019 4:24 pm
Location: Palma de Mallorca, Spain

Re: International travel

Post by sTeamTraen » Wed Jun 30, 2021 1:13 pm

Last week the UK put 16 regions, countries, and territories on the green list.

Today, all of them apart from Malta have been put on the "green watchlist", meaning they may move to amber immediately. Indeed, those countries never made it to full green list status, because that wasn't scheduled to start until 0400 this morning, which is when they went on the green watchlist instead. Israel, which was on the green list previously, has also been moved to the watchlist.

I really feel for anyone who is trying to either go on holiday or run a tourism-focused business in the middle of all this. If the Balearics go back to amber after this weekend there will be a bunch of people trying to get back in a hurry to avoid quarantine and the businesses that cater to Brits and have been ticking over will have to cancel orders, lay off staff, freeze supplies, etc, all of which is expense that they could have avoided if we had just stayed on amber.
Something something hammer something something nail

User avatar
shpalman
Light of Blast
Posts: 4912
Joined: Mon Nov 11, 2019 12:53 pm
Location: One step beyond

Re: International travel

Post by shpalman » Wed Jun 30, 2021 2:48 pm

Portugal is the latest country to require travellers to be double vaccinated in order to avoid quarantining for two weeks on arrival.

The whole idea of being able to get a short-term Green Pass via negative PCR testing for those who haven't had their turn at the vaccine seems to be teh fail even before it officially gets started.
molto tricky

User avatar
Gfamily
Stummy Beige
Posts: 2739
Joined: Mon Nov 11, 2019 1:00 pm
Location: NW England

Re: International travel

Post by Gfamily » Wed Jun 30, 2021 3:17 pm

At the moment, we have tickets for the ferry to France (from where I can work remotely for a couple of months). For now, all they need is a clean PCR test and our doubly vaccinated proofs, but I strongly suspect that the French Gov't may clamp down further in the next couple of weeks.

I can't really object if they did - and fortunately, we have flexible tickets, so we can postpone our crossing to a later date.

On the other hand, given our very limited exposure to other people in the meantime, we feel our risk of acquiring the delta variant feels low; we travelled out the same way last year and the ferry company seemed to be very efficient at allowing passengers to get to their cabins with minimum contact with other travellers.

We'll see I guess.
My avatar was a scientific result that was later found to be 'mistaken' - I rarely claim to be 100% correct
ETA 5/8/20: I've been advised that the result was correct, it was the initial interpretation that needed to be withdrawn
Meta? I'd say so!

User avatar
sTeamTraen
After Pie
Posts: 1973
Joined: Mon Nov 11, 2019 4:24 pm
Location: Palma de Mallorca, Spain

Re: International travel

Post by sTeamTraen » Wed Jun 30, 2021 4:44 pm

Gfamily wrote:
Wed Jun 30, 2021 3:17 pm
At the moment, we have tickets for the ferry to France (from where I can work remotely for a couple of months). For now, all they need is a clean PCR test and our doubly vaccinated proofs, but I strongly suspect that the French Gov't may clamp down further in the next couple of weeks.
It's difficult for governments to impose anything on vaccinated travellers because otherwise they are to some extent undermining the message around the vaccines. As a minimum it would seem that they have to give vaccinated people a better (or less bad) deal. To enter France at the moment without a vaccine you have to have an essential reason to go with a negative test.

The UK has said that there may be a better deal for vaccinated people entering or returning "later in the summer". For the moment even double-jabbed people returning from an amber list country need to spend over £100 on tests and quarantine for 10 days. I guess that does at least convey the official message "Don't travel unless you really have to".
Something something hammer something something nail

User avatar
shpalman
Light of Blast
Posts: 4912
Joined: Mon Nov 11, 2019 12:53 pm
Location: One step beyond

Re: International travel

Post by shpalman » Wed Jun 30, 2021 5:26 pm

sTeamTraen wrote:
Wed Jun 30, 2021 4:44 pm
Gfamily wrote:
Wed Jun 30, 2021 3:17 pm
At the moment, we have tickets for the ferry to France (from where I can work remotely for a couple of months). For now, all they need is a clean PCR test and our doubly vaccinated proofs, but I strongly suspect that the French Gov't may clamp down further in the next couple of weeks.
It's difficult for governments to impose anything on vaccinated travellers because otherwise they are to some extent undermining the message around the vaccines.
A government wouldn't want to impose anything on its own vaccinated residents/citizens but of course has a harder job convincing some other country not to impose anything on them on the outbound leg. It's weird how these things are seen as being reciprocal, when there's almost always one country which is lower risk than the other.
sTeamTraen wrote:
Wed Jun 30, 2021 4:44 pm
As a minimum it would seem that they have to give vaccinated people a better (or less bad) deal. To enter France at the moment without a vaccine you have to have an essential reason to go with a negative test.

The UK has said that there may be a better deal for vaccinated people entering or returning "later in the summer". For the moment even double-jabbed people returning from an amber list country need to spend over £100 on tests and quarantine for 10 days. I guess that does at least convey the official message "Don't travel unless you really have to".
molto tricky

Millennie Al
Catbabel
Posts: 774
Joined: Mon Mar 16, 2020 4:02 am

Re: International travel

Post by Millennie Al » Thu Jul 01, 2021 1:06 am

badger wrote:
Wed Jun 30, 2021 8:55 am
I thought privatisation (contract is with CTM) means that the lean mean market machine provides an efficient effective service?
A very common misconception. The market means you get what you pay for. For example, if you want to reduce the number of cobras and offer a bounty for each dead one that is handed in, you'll get lots of dead cobras. And people breeding them for the bounties, even if you intended them to catch wild ones. And then if you stop paying bounties, the breeders may just release the ones they are left with.

Also note that the market is weakened by having more than two paries to a transaction - i.e. where the person paying is not the person receiving the benefit in return. This is why insurance often causes difficulties. When there is a claim involving a third party - such as a repairer - the insured gets the benefit of the repair, but the insurer has to pay for it, leading to the insurer having in incentive to being reluctant to pay, while the insured has an incentive to allow the bill t be padded with poor value work or unnecessary expenditure.
Covid-19 - Don't catch it: don't spread it.

monkey
Catbabel
Posts: 670
Joined: Wed Nov 13, 2019 5:10 pm

Re: International travel

Post by monkey » Thu Jul 01, 2021 3:51 am

badger wrote:
Wed Jun 30, 2021 8:55 am
*Itinerant friend update*

Having decided to bite the bullet and book in to a Quarantine Hotel (Qotel? Q-Hotel? Quarantel? Covi-tel?) for London arrival, it turns out there was no availability. Already at the airport and unable to rebook flight back without major financial pain led to constant refreshing of the hotel booking page and booking a room just before boarding in Uganda.

On landing in Brussels no email confirmation came through (oh-oh), so they wouldn't let him board connecting flight to London. No availability when trying to rebook. Missed flight to Spain (plan b) and is sleeping at the airport waiting for next available flight there (Monkey, tongue may be removed from cheek now!)

Thanks again to everyone here - lots of v useful info passed on and got me looking at the right sets of guidelines.

PS. Can't believe (as in can believe) this sh.t show of a government don't have capacity in the hotel system. I thought privatisation (contract is with CTM) means that the lean mean market machine provides an efficient effective service?
Hope your buddy is alright. Sounds proper stressful.

I've spent single nights in airports before. Some are better than others. Schiphol was the best, they have proper seating for lying down on. And a fun clock to watch where the man repaints the hand. Still didn't sleep that well though.

User avatar
shpalman
Light of Blast
Posts: 4912
Joined: Mon Nov 11, 2019 12:53 pm
Location: One step beyond

Re: International travel

Post by shpalman » Thu Jul 01, 2021 8:56 am

Gfamily wrote:
Wed Jun 30, 2021 3:17 pm
At the moment, we have tickets for the ferry to France (from where I can work remotely for a couple of months). For now, all they need is a clean PCR test and our doubly vaccinated proofs, but I strongly suspect that the French Gov't may clamp down further in the next couple of weeks.

I can't really object if they did - and fortunately, we have flexible tickets, so we can postpone our crossing to a later date.

On the other hand, given our very limited exposure to other people in the meantime, we feel our risk of acquiring the delta variant feels low; we travelled out the same way last year and the ferry company seemed to be very efficient at allowing passengers to get to their cabins with minimum contact with other travellers.

We'll see I guess.
Last summer the UK had less than a thousand cases per day, rather than about 20,000. On the continent there's generally slightly lower vaccine coverage compared to the UK - France has given at least one dose to about 50% of its population and has given both doses to 30%. You can actually see the age breakdown of that at https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/covi ... untry=~FRA and https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/covi ... untry=~FRA

The case rates for the UK and a few EU countries are here.

But then I can't see what else they could ask for beyond negative PCR and proof of two vaccines, except for mandating quarantine anyway and/or more PCR tests after arrival.
molto tricky

badger
Fuzzable
Posts: 247
Joined: Tue Nov 12, 2019 3:23 pm

Re: International travel

Post by badger » Thu Jul 01, 2021 11:16 am

monkey wrote:
Thu Jul 01, 2021 3:51 am
badger wrote:
Wed Jun 30, 2021 8:55 am
*Itinerant friend update*

Having decided to bite the bullet and book in to a Quarantine Hotel (Qotel? Q-Hotel? Quarantel? Covi-tel?) for London arrival, it turns out there was no availability. Already at the airport and unable to rebook flight back without major financial pain led to constant refreshing of the hotel booking page and booking a room just before boarding in Uganda.

On landing in Brussels no email confirmation came through (oh-oh), so they wouldn't let him board connecting flight to London. No availability when trying to rebook. Missed flight to Spain (plan b) and is sleeping at the airport waiting for next available flight there (Monkey, tongue may be removed from cheek now!)

Thanks again to everyone here - lots of v useful info passed on and got me looking at the right sets of guidelines.

PS. Can't believe (as in can believe) this sh.t show of a government don't have capacity in the hotel system. I thought privatisation (contract is with CTM) means that the lean mean market machine provides an efficient effective service?
Hope your buddy is alright. Sounds proper stressful.

I've spent single nights in airports before. Some are better than others. Schiphol was the best, they have proper seating for lying down on. And a fun clock to watch where the man repaints the hand. Still didn't sleep that well though.
have done some long stretches in airports and train stations too. Wouldn't want to repeat the experience if possible!

Anyway, turns out he couldn't get into Europe/Schengen after all, and a room/cell became available in London, so that's where he now is. I won't send him Steamy's balcony link just yet, I think!

Catching up with his Missus and kids on the weekend so will find out more then.

badger
Fuzzable
Posts: 247
Joined: Tue Nov 12, 2019 3:23 pm

Re: International travel

Post by badger » Thu Jul 01, 2021 11:18 am

Millennie Al wrote:
Thu Jul 01, 2021 1:06 am
badger wrote:
Wed Jun 30, 2021 8:55 am
I thought privatisation (contract is with CTM) means that the lean mean market machine provides an efficient effective service?
A very common misconception. The market means you get what you pay for. For example, if you want to reduce the number of cobras and offer a bounty for each dead one that is handed in, you'll get lots of dead cobras. And people breeding them for the bounties, even if you intended them to catch wild ones. And then if you stop paying bounties, the breeders may just release the ones they are left with.

Also note that the market is weakened by having more than two paries to a transaction - i.e. where the person paying is not the person receiving the benefit in return. This is why insurance often causes difficulties. When there is a claim involving a third party - such as a repairer - the insured gets the benefit of the repair, but the insurer has to pay for it, leading to the insurer having in incentive to being reluctant to pay, while the insured has an incentive to allow the bill t be padded with poor value work or unnecessary expenditure.
Was being sarky, sorry!

User avatar
shpalman
Light of Blast
Posts: 4912
Joined: Mon Nov 11, 2019 12:53 pm
Location: One step beyond

Re: International travel

Post by shpalman » Thu Jul 01, 2021 7:26 pm

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/ ... tine-covid

I mean you might as well, you've got more chance of catching covid in the UK anyway.
molto tricky

OffTheRock
Clardic Fug
Posts: 177
Joined: Mon Dec 02, 2019 6:52 pm

Re: International travel

Post by OffTheRock » Thu Jul 01, 2021 10:06 pm

It's a bit like he's deliberately trying to get the UK put on everybody's red list. Not content with inflicting our own plague infested citizens on you we'll encourage yours to come over here and take it home with them.

This is going to swiftly be followed by some anti-EU bullies rhetoric about how they are trying to ruin us isn't it?

User avatar
shpalman
Light of Blast
Posts: 4912
Joined: Mon Nov 11, 2019 12:53 pm
Location: One step beyond

Re: International travel

Post by shpalman » Thu Jul 01, 2021 10:11 pm

The daily case rate in the UK is now worse than the whole EU.

Not the case rate per 100,000. The total cases.
coronavirus-data-explorer.png
coronavirus-data-explorer.png (359.2 KiB) Viewed 120 times
molto tricky

Herainestold
Dorkwood
Posts: 1159
Joined: Mon Nov 25, 2019 1:23 pm

Re: International travel

Post by Herainestold » Thu Jul 01, 2021 10:53 pm

shpalman wrote:
Thu Jul 01, 2021 10:11 pm
The daily case rate in the UK is now worse than the whole EU.

Not the case rate per 100,000. The total cases.

coronavirus-data-explorer.png
Just wait until Delta hits the whole EU.
Delta changes everything.

User avatar
Bird on a Fire
Light of Blast
Posts: 6380
Joined: Fri Oct 11, 2019 5:05 pm
Location: Iceland

Re: International travel

Post by Bird on a Fire » Thu Jul 01, 2021 10:56 pm

Herainestold wrote:
Thu Jul 01, 2021 10:53 pm
shpalman wrote:
Thu Jul 01, 2021 10:11 pm
The daily case rate in the UK is now worse than the whole EU.

Not the case rate per 100,000. The total cases.

coronavirus-data-explorer.png
Just wait until Delta hits the whole EU.
Yeah it's here in the south already, and there's loads of internal migration in the EU. I'm honestly mildly worried about it.
He has the grace of a swan, the wisdom of an owl, and the eye of an eagle—ladies and gentlemen, this man is for the birds!

Herainestold
Dorkwood
Posts: 1159
Joined: Mon Nov 25, 2019 1:23 pm

Re: International travel

Post by Herainestold » Thu Jul 01, 2021 11:03 pm

Bird on a Fire wrote:
Thu Jul 01, 2021 10:56 pm
Herainestold wrote:
Thu Jul 01, 2021 10:53 pm
shpalman wrote:
Thu Jul 01, 2021 10:11 pm
The daily case rate in the UK is now worse than the whole EU.

Not the case rate per 100,000. The total cases.

coronavirus-data-explorer.png
Just wait until Delta hits the whole EU.
Yeah it's here in the south already, and there's loads of internal migration in the EU. I'm honestly mildly worried about it.
I'm majorly worried about it.
Delta changes everything.

Herainestold
Dorkwood
Posts: 1159
Joined: Mon Nov 25, 2019 1:23 pm

Re: International travel

Post by Herainestold » Thu Jul 01, 2021 11:27 pm

Considering that the UK is the most vaccinated country (of the larger nations) and what Delta is doing to us, I fear for Europe. And the planet.
Delta changes everything.

User avatar
sTeamTraen
After Pie
Posts: 1973
Joined: Mon Nov 11, 2019 4:24 pm
Location: Palma de Mallorca, Spain

Re: International travel

Post by sTeamTraen » Thu Jul 01, 2021 11:38 pm

A couple of major f.ckups in the past 24 hours.

First, planes have been taking off for Portugal ('"Must have proof of vaccine to enter, otherwise 14 days quarantine") from Northern Ireland, where the NHS Covid Pass (app or PDF) doesn't work. So people have been trying to negotiate avoiding quarantine using their scrappy handwritten vaccine batch number record card.

Second, Ryanair sent an e-mail out this evening to everyone with a flight to Spain in the next week, saying (incorrectly) that Spain requires a vaccine (when in fact it's a vaccine or a test). Some of the unvaccinated recipients are getting on planes at 6am today.

Meanwhile, neither the Spanish nor the UK government is quite sure what tests are needed.
Something something hammer something something nail

Herainestold
Dorkwood
Posts: 1159
Joined: Mon Nov 25, 2019 1:23 pm

Re: International travel

Post by Herainestold » Fri Jul 02, 2021 1:49 am

sTeamTraen wrote:
Thu Jul 01, 2021 11:38 pm
A couple of major f.ckups in the past 24 hours.

First, planes have been taking off for Portugal ('"Must have proof of vaccine to enter, otherwise 14 days quarantine") from Northern Ireland, where the NHS Covid Pass (app or PDF) doesn't work. So people have been trying to negotiate avoiding quarantine using their scrappy handwritten vaccine batch number record card.

Second, Ryanair sent an e-mail out this evening to everyone with a flight to Spain in the next week, saying (incorrectly) that Spain requires a vaccine (when in fact it's a vaccine or a test). Some of the unvaccinated recipients are getting on planes at 6am today.

Meanwhile, neither the Spanish nor the UK government is quite sure what tests are needed.
The simplest solution is for Spain to just close the borders to UK travellers.
Delta changes everything.

User avatar
shpalman
Light of Blast
Posts: 4912
Joined: Mon Nov 11, 2019 12:53 pm
Location: One step beyond

Re: International travel

Post by shpalman » Fri Jul 02, 2021 8:35 am

Bird on a Fire wrote:
Thu Jul 01, 2021 10:56 pm
Herainestold wrote:
Thu Jul 01, 2021 10:53 pm
shpalman wrote:
Thu Jul 01, 2021 10:11 pm
The daily case rate in the UK is now worse than the whole EU.

Not the case rate per 100,000. The total cases.

coronavirus-data-explorer.png
Just wait until Delta hits the whole EU.
Yeah it's here in the south already, and there's loads of internal migration in the EU. I'm honestly mildly worried about it.
It's here already too, as I've said and linked to somewhere, about 10% of sequenced PCR swabs in Lombardy in June were the Delta variant. So I expect cases to stop going down next week and then start going up again the week after that.
molto tricky

Post Reply