Long Covid

[discovolante]

The anecdotal evidence is that extreme rest is required for many weeks. People go for a 30 min walk and are then exhausted for a couple of days. More active people might be suffering more because of doing more.

Medical advice currently seems to be graded exercise to get back into shape - and people are saying this is the wrong advice. Based on their anecdotal personal experience, a lot of long haulers are recommending zero exercise and saying to ignore doctors.

Reading these articles seems sensible, in case any of us get long Covid symptoms. Knowing to avoid excessive exercise early on might make all the difference. Who doesn't want additional information? There is something to be gained from being scared - when there's a danger out there why not seek practical knowledge about it? Come on to this thread to read and learn, and maybe one day information you share will help another one of us.

Thank you.

If I was in a situation where I was affected by it (either me or someone else I knew and could help) then of course I would research it. If I've got it then I've got it. But clicking a link and reading paragraph after paragraph of horrific long term symptoms doesn't help me very much. I already know I need to avoid catching it in the first place, and avoid passing it on if I do.

In terms of giving people info in advance of anyone getting it, it's not generally something people want to focus on as a topic of conversation. And imo it is something to have a conversation about rather than just make announcements about on social media.

Thank you also Gfamily.

[lpm]

I also really dislike medical stuff and used to be scared of anything to do with cancer. But then I had to learn to support someone through it, and gathering information was what handed a sense of control back to me.

These articles not only encourage me to be careful to avoid this virus, they also give advice that will make me feel more in control if I, or a loved one, get it. That control is probably mostly illusionary, but there you go. The cyclist article implies:

- rest immediately at the earliest symptoms
- keep resting for two weeks even after apparent recovery
- avoid alcohol until fully recovered
- don't get on a rollercoaster of feeling better, exercising, then crashing down again
- gentle exercise means gentle: a bit of light stretching maybe, or strolling round the garden. It doesn't mean gentle relative to a previous lifestyle of long bike rides and fell walking every day
- get help and support, for shopping, cleaning, childcare, gardening

[discovolante]

Thanks again. That is more helpful than 'this is really scary'.

So one other comment on that note. I might be a pathetic timid little mouse who needs to get a grip, and your point about education is valid. But if I avoid reading about it because it's frightening, then I'm probably far from the only one. So when every piece (that I have seen) starts with doom and gloom, there are probably more people than just me who aren't getting much further than that. You're not responsible for writing headlines or deciding how pieces are structured, but I think it would be helpful if the issue was framed differently. Especially given we have all had months of being told to be frightened of it, there comes a point where you/me/we just want to shut off from it, rightly or wrongly.

[headshot]

Would it be worth prefacing posts with trigger warnings?

[discovolante]

Would it be worth prefacing posts with trigger warnings?

Erm not for me - I know what this thread is about, would just be nice to see some good news for once!

[Millennie Al]

This stuff really scares the sh.t out of me and so I avoid reading it...is it all doom and gloom or is there some hope?

Another to avoid then:
https://www.cyclesprog.co.uk/blog/can-a ... 9-fatigue/

The author is someone I've worked with, and is one of the most dynamic and energetic people I know.

Sorry but you have caught me in a bad mood.
...
So anyway, given I said that stuff like this scares me, why would you think it's OK to quote my post and say 'here is something else to scare you'? What were you trying to achieve?

Without commenting on what was wanted, I'd like to point out what was achieved. That was the posting of a useful item that others might find interesting while at the same time ensuring that you were warned about the nature of the content in a way which did not require the content to be summarised or explicitly mentioned.

[shpalman]

I read and appreciated the cyclesprog link.

It's certainly looking as if being fit is helpful but continuing to push yourself too much at the early phase of infection is counter-productive. This also seemed to be the case with northern Italy's "patient 1" from Codogno.

[shpalman]

Alternatively, being unfit but having to deal with divorcing one wife while the current mistress is about to give birth and possibly leave you because you cheated on her with a violinist luckily there isn't anything important going on with the country still good that you shook hands with everybody and kept doing in-person meetings.

Johnson was still struggling badly after having coronavirus

[Woodchopper]

Multisystem inflammatory syndrome in children: A systematic review
https://www.thelancet.com/journals/ecli ... 6/fulltext

[Woodchopper]

Reduced maximal aerobic capacity after COVID-19 in young adult recruits, Switzerland, May 2020

In March 2020, we observed an outbreak of COVID-19 among a relatively homogenous group of 199 young (median age 21 years; 87% men) Swiss recruits. By comparing physical endurance before and in median 45 days after the outbreak, we found a significant decrease in predicted maximal aerobic capacity in COVID-19 convalescent but not in asymptomatically infected and SARS-CoV-2 naive recruits. This finding might be indicative of lung injury after apparently mild COVID-19 in young adults.

https://www.eurosurveillance.org/conten ... 36.2001542

[headshot]

Reduced maximal aerobic capacity after COVID-19 in young adult recruits, Switzerland, May 2020

In March 2020, we observed an outbreak of COVID-19 among a relatively homogenous group of 199 young (median age 21 years; 87% men) Swiss recruits. By comparing physical endurance before and in median 45 days after the outbreak, we found a significant decrease in predicted maximal aerobic capacity in COVID-19 convalescent but not in asymptomatically infected and SARS-CoV-2 naive recruits. This finding might be indicative of lung injury after apparently mild COVID-19 in young adults.

https://www.eurosurveillance.org/conten ... 36.2001542

I wonder how this compares with an outbreak of flu or other lung condition? I remember having a proper dose of flu years ago that I shifted after about a week or two. But I played a game of 5-aside about two weeks after recovering and started getting very out of breath and coughing. Went to the doctor who prescribed antibiotics for an underlying lung condition that they suspected was a hangover from the flu and that I hadn't noticed because I hadn't exerted myself until that game of footie. Took me another week or two to get over that too.

[Woodchopper]

Reduced maximal aerobic capacity after COVID-19 in young adult recruits, Switzerland, May 2020

In March 2020, we observed an outbreak of COVID-19 among a relatively homogenous group of 199 young (median age 21 years; 87% men) Swiss recruits. By comparing physical endurance before and in median 45 days after the outbreak, we found a significant decrease in predicted maximal aerobic capacity in COVID-19 convalescent but not in asymptomatically infected and SARS-CoV-2 naive recruits. This finding might be indicative of lung injury after apparently mild COVID-19 in young adults.

https://www.eurosurveillance.org/conten ... 36.2001542

I wonder how this compares with an outbreak of flu or other lung condition? I remember having a proper dose of flu years ago that I shifted after about a week or two. But I played a game of 5-aside about two weeks after recovering and started getting very out of breath and coughing. Went to the doctor who prescribed antibiotics for an underlying lung condition that they suspected was a hangover from the flu and that I hadn't noticed because I hadn't exerted myself until that game of footie. Took me another week or two to get over that too.

Yes, jdc raised the same question earlier. I don't know the answer but it is definitely relevant.

[headshot]

Ah sorry, missed that.

[Woodchopper]

Ah sorry, missed that.

No need to apologize.

[AMS]

https://www.eurosurveillance.org/conten ... 36.2001542

I wonder how this compares with an outbreak of flu or other lung condition? I remember having a proper dose of flu years ago that I shifted after about a week or two. But I played a game of 5-aside about two weeks after recovering and started getting very out of breath and coughing. Went to the doctor who prescribed antibiotics for an underlying lung condition that they suspected was a hangover from the flu and that I hadn't noticed because I hadn't exerted myself until that game of footie. Took me another week or two to get over that too.

Yes, jdc raised the same question earlier. I don't know the answer but it is definitely relevant.

The other important question is whether it's temporary or permanent lung damage.

I suspect there'll be a reasonable chance it's somewhere in between - the body will make a pretty decent job of repairing the damage, but not to 100% of what it was.

[Woodchopper]

A thorough article on persistent symptoms
https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/f ... le/2771111

Suggests that long Covid could be the same as ME/CFS.

[raven]

The other important question is whether it's temporary or permanent lung damage.

I suspect there'll be a reasonable chance it's somewhere in between - the body will make a pretty decent job of repairing the damage, but not to 100% of what it was.

That probably depends on whether there's scarring and how much of it there is. There's something about the mechanism of that wrt ARDS (acute respiratory distress syndrome) about halfway down this article:

https://medium.com/@edwardnirenberg/sar ... 2017fd5d3c

You can get scarring after a bad bout of pneumonia.

[Woodchopper]

You can get scarring after a bad bout of pneumonia.

Definitely, which leads to a vicious cycle if the scarring causes bronchiectasis which leads to pneumonia which leads to more bronchiectasis.

Bad if Covid scaring starts that off.

[sTeamTraen]

A thorough article on persistent symptoms
https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/f ... le/2771111

Suggests that long Covid could be the same as ME/CFS.

I wouldn't say that the people I know in the ME/CFS community are happy about the arrival of COVID-19, and long COVID in particular, but there is a definite sense of "Perhaps *now* someone will listen to us". Progress for them could perhaps be a modest silver lining of the pandemic.

[Woodchopper]

Lung damage found in COVID dead may shed light on 'long COVID' - study
https://www.reuters.com/article/health- ... SKBN27K00X

[Opti]

I had been wondering about long covid too. Tbh as far as I personally am concerned that's my main worry. Obviously I really dont want to end up in an ICU or die but (and I hope I dont regret saying this!) at the moment it's the potential long term impacts that concern me, more than the acute stuff.

A very good friend of mine spent a week in ICU and a bit longer on a Covid ward earlier this year. He's not so young, but the fittest guy I know, with boundless energy, always doing stuff (used to be organising BIG festivals, boots on the ground stuff) like cutting down trees, building a new studio in his massive garden, helping to find neighbours lost sheep, dogs, horses ... really never stopped.

He is not like that 6 months on. And his lifeblood industry is gone. Oh well, his pension funds kick in next year.

[shpalman]

Bumping the Long Covid thread which we already have.

[mediocrity511]

The mortality vs. morbidity thing made me think in particular of shielding list patients, who seem to be behind most of the elderly in vaccine priority. Obviously they are at more risk of dying than the general population , but when you think many of them already have damaged lungs or kidneys etc. One worries about the morbidity there, even if they survive, as someone might function fairly well on 70% lung capacity but reduce that to 50% and they're fairly disabled.

[shpalman]

A fifth of people still have coronavirus symptoms five weeks after being infected, with half of them continuing to experience problems for at least 12 weeks, official data suggests, as concerns grow about the scale and impact of “long Covid”.

[Woodchopper]

UK ONS to research the prevalence of long COVID: https://www.ons.gov.uk/news/statementsa ... plications