Back to school

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bagpuss
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Re: Back to school

Post by bagpuss » Mon Sep 21, 2020 2:07 pm

mediocrity511 wrote:
Mon Sep 21, 2020 1:04 pm
bagpuss wrote:
Mon Sep 21, 2020 9:44 am
mediocrity511 wrote:
Sun Sep 20, 2020 12:31 pm
Case in the nursery at miniocrity's school. Just been informed. Half her class have siblings in nursery, so unsure what to do given extremely clinically vulnerable Mr Miniocrity.
Given extremely clinically vulnerable Mr Miniocrity, I would be strongly tempted to keep miniocrity off school for at least 2 weeks. And get her a test asap if at all possible (which it quite possibly isn't). Unless, of course, there is somewhere that Mr Miniocrity could stay more safely for a while but I'm assuming that's unlikely and, in any case, quite possibly undesirable.
The problem is that guidelines don't actually allow for this. As it is, we have kept Miniocrity home and managed to negotiate her absence until Thursday (Wednesday is a planned absence for hospital appointment). Then we need to make more drastic decisions about accepting fines, or refusing them and saying "take me to court, because this isn't ethical" or just deregistering and opting for home education for a period of time.

As circumstances would have it, she took a test on Saturday as part of the ONS survey. So we have at least a little bit of data there.
I obviously hadn't had enough coffee earlier as I hadn't thought about the consequences of fines, etc. Drat :(

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Re: Back to school

Post by bagpuss » Mon Sep 21, 2020 2:09 pm

jimbob wrote:
Mon Sep 21, 2020 1:56 pm
mediocrity511 wrote:
Mon Sep 21, 2020 1:04 pm
bagpuss wrote:
Mon Sep 21, 2020 9:44 am


Given extremely clinically vulnerable Mr Miniocrity, I would be strongly tempted to keep miniocrity off school for at least 2 weeks. And get her a test asap if at all possible (which it quite possibly isn't). Unless, of course, there is somewhere that Mr Miniocrity could stay more safely for a while but I'm assuming that's unlikely and, in any case, quite possibly undesirable.
The problem is that guidelines don't actually allow for this. As it is, we have kept Miniocrity home and managed to negotiate her absence until Thursday (Wednesday is a planned absence for hospital appointment). Then we need to make more drastic decisions about accepting fines, or refusing them and saying "take me to court, because this isn't ethical" or just deregistering and opting for home education for a period of time.

As circumstances would have it, she took a test on Saturday as part of the ONS survey. So we have at least a little bit of data there.
How did she find it? My eldest had a couple on landing in Iceland* and said it wasn't a pleasant experience.


*Two negative tests in 4 days and quarantine inbetween - then free to go after the second negative result.
The bagkitten was invited to take part in the ONS Survey too but she said she didn't want to. Given that she's almost 10, we felt she had a right to decide for herself, although we did try to encourage her. She was adamant though, sadly :(

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mediocrity511
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Re: Back to school

Post by mediocrity511 » Mon Sep 21, 2020 2:59 pm

Miniocrity coped surprisingly well with the throat swab, but wasn't a fan of the nostrils. Which seems odd, as they suggest doing just the nostrils on a child if you are struggling!

She wanted to do the test, we've done lots of talking about how the scientists are finding out more about coronavirus and how that helps us. So she was quite into the idea of helping the scientists!

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shpalman
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Re: Back to school

Post by shpalman » Mon Sep 21, 2020 4:59 pm

molto tricky

badger
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Re: Back to school

Post by badger » Mon Sep 21, 2020 7:19 pm

shpalman wrote:
Mon Sep 21, 2020 4:59 pm
20 schools now
Quick google suggests ~420 primary & secondary schools in lincs, so approaching 5%. Only two closed as it stands.

I may have made a massive error with what constitutes Lincolnshire though!

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shpalman
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Re: Back to school

Post by shpalman » Mon Sep 21, 2020 7:57 pm

Well, the creation of South Humberside was an error in what constitutes Lincolnshire and most of the other errors stem from that one.
molto tricky

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Woodchopper
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Re: Back to school

Post by Woodchopper » Tue Sep 22, 2020 7:38 pm

Sharing a household with children and risk of COVID-19: a study of over 300,000 adults living in healthcare worker households in Scotland
https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101 ... 20196428v1
Increased household exposure to young children was associated with an attenuated risk of testing positive for SARS-CoV-2 and appeared to also be associated with an attenuated risk of COVID-19 disease severe enough to require hospitalisation.
Possible that this is due to parents having been exposed to lots of corona viruses via their kids. Something which provided partial immune system protection

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Re: Back to school

Post by EACLucifer » Tue Sep 22, 2020 10:12 pm

mediocrity511 wrote:
Mon Sep 21, 2020 1:04 pm
bagpuss wrote:
Mon Sep 21, 2020 9:44 am
mediocrity511 wrote:
Sun Sep 20, 2020 12:31 pm
Case in the nursery at miniocrity's school. Just been informed. Half her class have siblings in nursery, so unsure what to do given extremely clinically vulnerable Mr Miniocrity.
Given extremely clinically vulnerable Mr Miniocrity, I would be strongly tempted to keep miniocrity off school for at least 2 weeks. And get her a test asap if at all possible (which it quite possibly isn't). Unless, of course, there is somewhere that Mr Miniocrity could stay more safely for a while but I'm assuming that's unlikely and, in any case, quite possibly undesirable.
The problem is that guidelines don't actually allow for this. As it is, we have kept Miniocrity home and managed to negotiate her absence until Thursday (Wednesday is a planned absence for hospital appointment). Then we need to make more drastic decisions about accepting fines, or refusing them and saying "take me to court, because this isn't ethical" or just deregistering and opting for home education for a period of time.

As circumstances would have it, she took a test on Saturday as part of the ONS survey. So we have at least a little bit of data there.
You have my sympathies. This position you are being placed in is grotesque and unnecessary.

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Re: Back to school

Post by EACLucifer » Tue Sep 22, 2020 10:15 pm

While tentatively out today for the first time in over a month, I passed a local nursery. Gaggle of mums chatting away with no masks and distancing just around the corner from the entrance. I could sort of understand if it was an "I don't know how to tell my child to stay away from her friend", but the conversation was between the adults, and the kids seemed rather bored by it all.

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shpalman
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Re: Back to school

Post by shpalman » Wed Sep 23, 2020 7:53 am

molto tricky

badger
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Re: Back to school

Post by badger » Wed Sep 23, 2020 8:14 am

shpalman wrote:
Wed Sep 23, 2020 7:53 am
there's a few more every day
As we would expect, right?

The question is whether the positive case brought it in or got it there, how much transmission there is within the school, and how much it spreads outside.

It's when we see those 23 (and counting schools) reporting more positives that things start to get interesting. It would be good to know if they've just quarantined affected bubbles, or asked them to test too - or only those with symptoms. I need to ask my school what the protocol is...

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Re: Back to school

Post by badger » Wed Sep 23, 2020 8:16 am

Woodchopper wrote:
Tue Sep 22, 2020 7:38 pm
Sharing a household with children and risk of COVID-19: a study of over 300,000 adults living in healthcare worker households in Scotland
https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101 ... 20196428v1
Increased household exposure to young children was associated with an attenuated risk of testing positive for SARS-CoV-2 and appeared to also be associated with an attenuated risk of COVID-19 disease severe enough to require hospitalisation.
Possible that this is due to parents having been exposed to lots of corona viruses via their kids. Something which provided partial immune system protection
Interesting - and the more children you live with the more attenuated the risk!
I knew there was a good reason to have them...

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discovolante
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Re: Back to school

Post by discovolante » Wed Sep 23, 2020 8:20 am

EACLucifer wrote:
Tue Sep 22, 2020 10:12 pm
mediocrity511 wrote:
Mon Sep 21, 2020 1:04 pm
bagpuss wrote:
Mon Sep 21, 2020 9:44 am


Given extremely clinically vulnerable Mr Miniocrity, I would be strongly tempted to keep miniocrity off school for at least 2 weeks. And get her a test asap if at all possible (which it quite possibly isn't). Unless, of course, there is somewhere that Mr Miniocrity could stay more safely for a while but I'm assuming that's unlikely and, in any case, quite possibly undesirable.
The problem is that guidelines don't actually allow for this. As it is, we have kept Miniocrity home and managed to negotiate her absence until Thursday (Wednesday is a planned absence for hospital appointment). Then we need to make more drastic decisions about accepting fines, or refusing them and saying "take me to court, because this isn't ethical" or just deregistering and opting for home education for a period of time.

As circumstances would have it, she took a test on Saturday as part of the ONS survey. So we have at least a little bit of data there.
You have my sympathies. This position you are being placed in is grotesque and unnecessary.
Yes I agree. I really feel for anyone dealing with the school/university situation at the moment. Everyone seems to have been left in the lurch.

Oh and care homes, again.
don't get any big ideas, they're not gonna happen

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JQH
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Re: Back to school

Post by JQH » Wed Sep 23, 2020 12:09 pm

Been a number of cases at my grandson's school. So it's been closed.
And remember that if you botch the exit, the carnival of reaction may be coming to a town near you.

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shpalman
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Re: Back to school

Post by shpalman » Wed Sep 23, 2020 4:24 pm

molto tricky

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mediocrity511
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Re: Back to school

Post by mediocrity511 » Wed Sep 23, 2020 5:31 pm

It's 42 cases in Nottingham schools now.


Miniocrity was a hospital day patient today (for non emergency reasons) and it was quite a contrast all the safety measures they had in place in comparison to the schools. Obviously different settings, but it felt so safe in comparison. 2 kids at opposite ends of a 6 bed bay, masks, distancing, all very well though out.

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Re: Back to school

Post by badger » Wed Sep 23, 2020 8:59 pm

42 in the City or shire?

Where are you in terms of going back to school? Was wondering if it's worth speaking to the school about your concerns and also whether there had been any further cases?

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Re: Back to school

Post by mediocrity511 » Thu Sep 24, 2020 6:10 am

badger wrote:
Wed Sep 23, 2020 8:59 pm
42 in the City or shire?

Where are you in terms of going back to school? Was wondering if it's worth speaking to the school about your concerns and also whether there had been any further cases?
City and shire combined.

There's been no more cases in our school and after much discussion we are sending Miniocrity back for now. We feel almost certain that we'll need to pull her out for the foreseeable pretty soon though. Aiming to make it until she gets her flu spray at school and praying for a policy change regarding fines and shielding parents.

I've two questions that I need answers from the school. The first is about whether parents would be informed about if there was a change of policy regarding informing the whole school about positive tests. The second is that at the moment bubble closure only happens if there is a positive test, what happens if several children in a class are off self isolating with symptoms but they cant access testing because of shortages? Would that potential outbreak just be allowed to rumble on or would there be a procedure for shutting the bubble down.

I did have a good chat with the deputy head and he seemed fairly sympathetic but in a "my hands are tied" kind of way.

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Re: Back to school

Post by jimbob » Thu Sep 24, 2020 7:01 am

mediocrity511 wrote:
Thu Sep 24, 2020 6:10 am
badger wrote:
Wed Sep 23, 2020 8:59 pm
42 in the City or shire?

Where are you in terms of going back to school? Was wondering if it's worth speaking to the school about your concerns and also whether there had been any further cases?
City and shire combined.

There's been no more cases in our school and after much discussion we are sending Miniocrity back for now. We feel almost certain that we'll need to pull her out for the foreseeable pretty soon though. Aiming to make it until she gets her flu spray at school and praying for a policy change regarding fines and shielding parents.

I've two questions that I need answers from the school. The first is about whether parents would be informed about if there was a change of policy regarding informing the whole school about positive tests. The second is that at the moment bubble closure only happens if there is a positive test, what happens if several children in a class are off self isolating with symptoms but they cant access testing because of shortages? Would that potential outbreak just be allowed to rumble on or would there be a procedure for shutting the bubble down.

I did have a good chat with the deputy head and he seemed fairly sympathetic but in a "my hands are tied" kind of way.
Is there any mileage in asking to see risk assessments and if they've changed in light of the increased level? The bit about more evidence for aerosol transmission is possibly one too far.
Have you considered stupidity as an explanation

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Re: Back to school

Post by badger » Thu Sep 24, 2020 12:35 pm

mediocrity511 wrote:
Thu Sep 24, 2020 6:10 am
badger wrote:
Wed Sep 23, 2020 8:59 pm
42 in the City or shire?

Where are you in terms of going back to school? Was wondering if it's worth speaking to the school about your concerns and also whether there had been any further cases?
City and shire combined.

There's been no more cases in our school and after much discussion we are sending Miniocrity back for now. We feel almost certain that we'll need to pull her out for the foreseeable pretty soon though. Aiming to make it until she gets her flu spray at school and praying for a policy change regarding fines and shielding parents.

I've two questions that I need answers from the school. The first is about whether parents would be informed about if there was a change of policy regarding informing the whole school about positive tests. The second is that at the moment bubble closure only happens if there is a positive test, what happens if several children in a class are off self isolating with symptoms but they cant access testing because of shortages? Would that potential outbreak just be allowed to rumble on or would there be a procedure for shutting the bubble down.

I did have a good chat with the deputy head and he seemed fairly sympathetic but in a "my hands are tied" kind of way.
First - I would imagine so, but as you say worth getting clarity.
Second - the advice for schools I've seen say that bubbles can be closed based on symptoms, as well tests, iirc. I'll see if I can dig it out. It may even have made it onto your school's risk assessment (which is normally available to all parents).

With the decisions your facing, and given that advice for shielders/vulnerable and those that care for them has been tweaked recently, is it worth a quick letter to your MP about your situation and concerns? Even just copying and pasting some of the stuff you've put here and tidying into an email would be fine, I'm sure.

Re fines for absenteeism. Didn't they write off all the fines for those who isolated early in March? It's not huge consolation now, but indicates that there is some reasonableness in this, even if post hoc.

Am not sure what good my sympathy and these longshots do, but hope it's useful in some way.

I would also suggest getting the school to promote the symptom tracker app, and get on the scheme they have to track school bubbles, but uptake at my school has been poor, and am facing an uphill battle gently prodding parents to sign up. There's a lot of pandemic fatigue about...

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jimbob
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Re: Back to school

Post by jimbob » Sat Sep 26, 2020 10:12 am

Any ideas what happened around this time in the UK?
Screenshot_20200926-102935_Chrome.jpg
Screenshot_20200926-102935_Chrome.jpg (234.64 KiB) Viewed 140 times
Have you considered stupidity as an explanation

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Re: Back to school

Post by shpalman » Sat Sep 26, 2020 12:34 pm

Parents have been sending their known-covid-positive kids to school in Wisconsin.
"The biggest challenge for us that we're experiencing right now is people are just being dishonest," Ms Johnson told the Journal Sentinel. "They don't want their children to be quarantined from school. They don't want to have to miss work. In doing that, they're jeopardising the ability to have school in person and other people's health."
molto tricky

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mediocrity511
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Re: Back to school

Post by mediocrity511 » Sat Sep 26, 2020 3:13 pm

PHE have schools as the largest source of outbreaks by a long way in their last report. 248 confirmed clusters (estimates compiled elsewhere for schools with at least 1 case is very nearly 2000). No particular difference in numbers between primary and secondary., so there doesn't seem to be any " younger kids don't spread it" effect. University outbreaks are headline news and yet there's radio silence on the much larger number of school children who have been infected or are isolating.

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discovolante
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Re: Back to school

Post by discovolante » Sat Sep 26, 2020 3:32 pm

mediocrity511 wrote:
Sat Sep 26, 2020 3:13 pm
PHE have schools as the largest source of outbreaks by a long way in their last report. 248 confirmed clusters (estimates compiled elsewhere for schools with at least 1 case is very nearly 2000). No particular difference in numbers between primary and secondary., so there doesn't seem to be any " younger kids don't spread it" effect. University outbreaks are headline news and yet there's radio silence on the much larger number of school children who have been infected or are isolating.
I guess the difference is 1) the students or at least a lot of them seem to be being taught entirely online, so there was no need for them to go to accommodation except ££££, and 2) the students have been effectively imprisoned in their own rooms/homes. The focus seems be on the wider impact and the motivation behind it rather than the number of cases.
don't get any big ideas, they're not gonna happen

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mediocrity511
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Re: Back to school

Post by mediocrity511 » Sat Sep 26, 2020 3:48 pm

discovolante wrote:
Sat Sep 26, 2020 3:32 pm
mediocrity511 wrote:
Sat Sep 26, 2020 3:13 pm
PHE have schools as the largest source of outbreaks by a long way in their last report. 248 confirmed clusters (estimates compiled elsewhere for schools with at least 1 case is very nearly 2000). No particular difference in numbers between primary and secondary., so there doesn't seem to be any " younger kids don't spread it" effect. University outbreaks are headline news and yet there's radio silence on the much larger number of school children who have been infected or are isolating.
I guess the difference is 1) the students or at least a lot of them seem to be being taught entirely online, so there was no need for them to go to accommodation except ££££, and 2) the students have been effectively imprisoned in their own rooms/homes. The focus seems be on the wider impact and the motivation behind it rather than the number of cases.
Maybe, but then we've had headlines about factory outbreaks, care homes (for obvious reasons), hospitals, sports teams, funerals etc.etc.

I'm definitely not saying universities aren't a story, they definitely are. But schools are too.

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