Back to school

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discovolante
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Re: Back to school

Post by discovolante » Tue Sep 08, 2020 8:27 am

I suppose younger kids are more likely to wipe their spit and snot everywhere than adults, but I'm not sure what difference that makes. Gov advice is still regular hand washing/ no face touching so it doesn't sound unreasonable that schools would take some steps to mitigate the fact that it's harder to get kids to do this, although obviously how far different schools go might vary widely.
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Re: Back to school

Post by bagpuss » Tue Sep 08, 2020 8:36 am

sTeamTraen wrote:
Tue Sep 08, 2020 8:21 am
mediocrity511 wrote:
Tue Sep 08, 2020 6:45 am
But about 80% of what schools are doing is focused on surface transmission. They're wiping desks, cleaning toilets a lot more, quarantining books before being used, asking for uniform to be clean everyday, some only allowing lunch to be brought in a disposable bag etc.etc.
I guess it comes down to the usual "Something must be done, and this is something". It's difficult to imagine them saying "actually it's not necessary to quarantine books", for example, because some parent would complain they Aren't Taking The Problem Seriously. And maybe it helps, given that they can't do the things that would really help, like having classes outdoors.
Exactly. If kids are going back to school and there's no provision for extra space or outdoor classes, then there's really very little you can do to keep the kids apart. Classrooms (in the UK, anyway) are just not big enough to do any more than turn the desks to face the front*. But they can at least clean surfaces a bit more so they do. The benefits may be minimal but if they're non-zero then it probably makes sense to at least do those small things although, or perhaps because, the big things can't be done.

What I'm slightly surprised about is that there seems to be no requirement/request for parents to wear masks for drop-off/pick up. Even if you subscribe to the theory that kids don't spread the virus as much, that doesn't apply to parents loitering about, waiting for kids, and chatting to each other, in an area where it is frankly impossible to maintain 2m distance from everyone, no matter how hard you try (and I try). I'm attempting to start a trend by wearing a mask when I collect the bagkitten but I've failed to convince Mr Bagpuss to do the same and I can literally count the number of masks I've seen at the gate over 2 days of pick ups on the fingers of one hand, not including the thumb.


*The bagkitten is getting fed up of me pointing out that they've basically just gone back to the 1970s/80s, when I were a lass.

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Re: Back to school

Post by bagpuss » Tue Sep 08, 2020 8:38 am

discovolante wrote:
Tue Sep 08, 2020 8:27 am
I suppose younger kids are more likely to wipe their spit and snot everywhere than adults, but I'm not sure what difference that makes. Gov advice is still regular hand washing/ no face touching so it doesn't sound unreasonable that schools would take some steps to mitigate the fact that it's harder to get kids to do this, although obviously how far different schools go might vary widely.
Yes, they definitely are :lol:

And it probably does make the benefit of the cleaning a bit further from zero than it would be for, say, an office.

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Re: Back to school

Post by mediocrity511 » Tue Sep 08, 2020 8:41 am

sTeamTraen wrote:
Tue Sep 08, 2020 8:21 am
mediocrity511 wrote:
Tue Sep 08, 2020 6:45 am
But about 80% of what schools are doing is focused on surface transmission. They're wiping desks, cleaning toilets a lot more, quarantining books before being used, asking for uniform to be clean everyday, some only allowing lunch to be brought in a disposable bag etc.etc.
I guess it comes down to the usual "Something must be done, and this is something". It's difficult to imagine them saying "actually it's not necessary to quarantine books", for example, because some parent would complain they Aren't Taking The Problem Seriously. And maybe it helps, given that they can't do the things that would really help, like having classes outdoors.
I've been reading about how we used to have outdoor schools in the UK, aimed at children recovering from TB but also for those from poor housing conditions. The old outdoor school buildings near me are now a scout hut and a day nursery.

But yes, I think a lot of it is essentially infection control theatre.

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Re: Back to school

Post by sTeamTraen » Tue Sep 08, 2020 11:33 am

bagpuss wrote:
Tue Sep 08, 2020 8:36 am
What I'm slightly surprised about is that there seems to be no requirement/request for parents to wear masks for drop-off/pick up.
Here in Spain that would be covered by the near-universal (every region can choose to implement it or not) requirement to wear masks in public places at all times. We're now at the stage that if you sit at a café table, you have to keep your mask on until your order arrives, and in principle put it back on when you've finished. I think it's OK to leave it off between sips.

People seem to be observing this pretty well. I think we sometimes overestimate the reach of the anti-mask idiots, due to availability bias. The majority of people know this is unpleasant, don't want to catch it, don't want to spread it, don't want to be a dick about it, and aren't making tw.ts of themselves on social media. Even the ones who aren't taking it too seriously, mostly the 18-25 age group, aren't doing so in a defiant or politicised way - they're just adding another risky behaviour to the list, at least partly through general lack of awareness, just like binge drinking and unprotected sex.
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Re: Back to school

Post by Gfamily » Tue Sep 08, 2020 12:06 pm

We heard of someone who took an hour long flight and made a point of buying a mini tub of pringles and a bottle of water at the start of the flight and very proudly nibbled through them at a rate of one every 2 and a quarter minutes just so that he didn't need to wear a mask.

Stupid c.nt.
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Re: Back to school

Post by bagpuss » Tue Sep 08, 2020 1:27 pm

sTeamTraen wrote:
Tue Sep 08, 2020 11:33 am
bagpuss wrote:
Tue Sep 08, 2020 8:36 am
What I'm slightly surprised about is that there seems to be no requirement/request for parents to wear masks for drop-off/pick up.
Here in Spain that would be covered by the near-universal (every region can choose to implement it or not) requirement to wear masks in public places at all times. We're now at the stage that if you sit at a café table, you have to keep your mask on until your order arrives, and in principle put it back on when you've finished. I think it's OK to leave it off between sips.

People seem to be observing this pretty well. I think we sometimes overestimate the reach of the anti-mask idiots, due to availability bias. The majority of people know this is unpleasant, don't want to catch it, don't want to spread it, don't want to be a dick about it, and aren't making tw.ts of themselves on social media. Even the ones who aren't taking it too seriously, mostly the 18-25 age group, aren't doing so in a defiant or politicised way - they're just adding another risky behaviour to the list, at least partly through general lack of awareness, just like binge drinking and unprotected sex.
The parents at the bagkitten's school and the adjacent infants aren't, I'm pretty sure, anti-mask. At least the vast majority aren't. I think everyone's just a bit complacent as we're in a relatively rural, relatively low-risk area. Many of the parents are working from home so are not used to wearing masks except in shops and a lot of us have home delivery groceries so we're not even doing that. I think if the school asked parents to mask up, we'd get at least 50% compliance overnight and 70-80+% within a couple of days. But at the moment, it just doesn't seem to have occurred to people that it's a good idea. So I'm trying to be the good example but I think I need to recruit some more people to my cause.

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Re: Back to school

Post by Sciolus » Tue Sep 08, 2020 1:29 pm

sTeamTraen wrote:
Tue Sep 08, 2020 11:33 am
bagpuss wrote:
Tue Sep 08, 2020 8:36 am
What I'm slightly surprised about is that there seems to be no requirement/request for parents to wear masks for drop-off/pick up.
Here in Spain that would be covered by the near-universal (every region can choose to implement it or not) requirement to wear masks in public places at all times. We're now at the stage that if you sit at a café table, you have to keep your mask on until your order arrives, and in principle put it back on when you've finished. I think it's OK to leave it off between sips.

People seem to be observing this pretty well. I think we sometimes overestimate the reach of the anti-mask idiots, due to availability bias. The majority of people know this is unpleasant, don't want to catch it, don't want to spread it, don't want to be a dick about it, and aren't making tw.ts of themselves on social media. Even the ones who aren't taking it too seriously, mostly the 18-25 age group, aren't doing so in a defiant or politicised way - they're just adding another risky behaviour to the list, at least partly through general lack of awareness, just like binge drinking and unprotected sex.
The direct benefit of requiring masks outdoors is probably rather small, but the indirect benefit of normalising mask-wearing will increase compliance where it is of value (i.e. indoors or confined spaces), through a mix of peer pressure and habit.

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Re: Back to school

Post by sTeamTraen » Tue Sep 08, 2020 4:39 pm

Gfamily wrote:
Tue Sep 08, 2020 12:06 pm
We heard of someone who took an hour long flight and made a point of buying a mini tub of pringles and a bottle of water at the start of the flight and very proudly nibbled through them at a rate of one every 2 and a quarter minutes just so that he didn't need to wear a mask.

Stupid c.nt.
Very occasionally, COVID-19, like Brexit, occasionally makes me think that I want to find someone who has behaves like this get their moral come-uppance (bad case of COVID, losing job or getting deported from an EU country due to Brexit). I feel like I want pull up a chair and a big tub of popcorn and watch a film of their suffering, very slowly, until they finally realise what they have done.

I don't like thinking that way. I never used to think like that. Perhaps I should stop reading the news and just go and grow olives somewhere.
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Re: Back to school

Post by Millennie Al » Wed Sep 09, 2020 1:47 am

bagpuss wrote:
Tue Sep 08, 2020 8:36 am
What I'm slightly surprised about is that there seems to be no requirement/request for parents to wear masks for drop-off/pick up. Even if you subscribe to the theory that kids don't spread the virus as much, that doesn't apply to parents loitering about, waiting for kids, and chatting to each other, in an area where it is frankly impossible to maintain 2m distance from everyone, no matter how hard you try (and I try). I'm attempting to start a trend by wearing a mask when I collect the bagkitten...
Masks are ineffective, Use a cattle prod.
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Re: Back to school

Post by Millennie Al » Wed Sep 09, 2020 1:48 am

Sciolus wrote:
Tue Sep 08, 2020 1:29 pm
The direct benefit of requiring masks outdoors is probably rather small, but the indirect benefit of normalising mask-wearing will increase compliance where it is of value (i.e. indoors or confined spaces), through a mix of peer pressure and habit.
When you are telling people to do stuff, you are relying on them trusting you. By advocating something which is not inherently useful, you undermine that trust.
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Re: Back to school

Post by bagpuss » Wed Sep 09, 2020 8:19 am

Millennie Al wrote:
Wed Sep 09, 2020 1:47 am
bagpuss wrote:
Tue Sep 08, 2020 8:36 am
What I'm slightly surprised about is that there seems to be no requirement/request for parents to wear masks for drop-off/pick up. Even if you subscribe to the theory that kids don't spread the virus as much, that doesn't apply to parents loitering about, waiting for kids, and chatting to each other, in an area where it is frankly impossible to maintain 2m distance from everyone, no matter how hard you try (and I try). I'm attempting to start a trend by wearing a mask when I collect the bagkitten...
Masks are ineffective, Use a cattle prod.
Cattle prod would just shove the person closer to someone else though. I need something that would actually evaporate people. Any suggestions?

More realistically, the bagkitten and her friends have told us that we are no longer allowed to meet them at the school door and have to wait at the site entrance by the road (it's a big school site with multiple schools, so this is well out of sight of the school itself). This has the happy consequence that we can spread out the crowds a little, while also encouraging the kids in their increasing independence. Win all round.

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Re: Back to school

Post by Bird on a Fire » Wed Sep 09, 2020 1:54 pm

Woodchopper wrote:
Mon Sep 07, 2020 9:23 am
Bird on a Fire wrote:
Thu Sep 03, 2020 11:46 am
Seagull wrote:
Thu Sep 03, 2020 10:53 am
It's just for show, isn't it?
It sounds a bit like "pandemic theatre" - lots of complicated stuff designed to give a sense of security, but with little practical impact.

Much like all the "put your toothpaste in a plastic bag and get your Tablet out and take your belt and your shoes off" palaver at airports, which is much more effective at getting grannies to bin their knitting needles than at stopping people getting weapons through.
Whatever people say, there has been a large and sustained reduction in hijackings since 2001. Of course its difficult to be certain about the causes, but absent any obvious decline in motivation by extremists, aviation security seems to be doing something right. Even if it is all theater, maybe the smoke and mirrors is effective.
That's good news.

I expect would-be hijackers are more amenable to psychological deterrents than viruses are, though.
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Re: Back to school

Post by AMS » Wed Sep 09, 2020 5:12 pm

True, but unlike hijackers, viruses cannot deliberately try to outwit our defenses, and can only do it by chance. Our biggest weapon against the virus spreading is choosing behaviours that reduce transmission.

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Re: Back to school

Post by AMS » Wed Sep 09, 2020 5:18 pm

(I wonder how much of the aviation security effect is simply from the fact that we're more wise to the intentions of terrorists, and therefore more on the look-out for them, i.e. more surveillance generally, rather than any specific security measure.)

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Re: Back to school

Post by Millennie Al » Wed Sep 09, 2020 11:52 pm

bagpuss wrote:
Wed Sep 09, 2020 8:19 am
Millennie Al wrote:
Wed Sep 09, 2020 1:47 am
bagpuss wrote:
Tue Sep 08, 2020 8:36 am
What I'm slightly surprised about is that there seems to be no requirement/request for parents to wear masks for drop-off/pick up. Even if you subscribe to the theory that kids don't spread the virus as much, that doesn't apply to parents loitering about, waiting for kids, and chatting to each other, in an area where it is frankly impossible to maintain 2m distance from everyone, no matter how hard you try (and I try). I'm attempting to start a trend by wearing a mask when I collect the bagkitten...
Masks are ineffective, Use a cattle prod.
Cattle prod would just shove the person closer to someone else though.
That's their problem. And when they see how effective your cattle prod is, they'll get one as well. Then the person who gets too close will be prodded back and forth until they learn their lesson and keep away. It's often sait that an armed society is a polite society, but cattle prods give you an arms-length society.
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Re: Back to school

Post by Squeak » Thu Sep 10, 2020 6:24 am

Woodchopper wrote:
Mon Sep 07, 2020 9:23 am


Whatever people say, there has been a large and sustained reduction in hijackings since 2001. Of course its difficult to be certain about the causes, but absent any obvious decline in motivation by extremists, aviation security seems to be doing something right. Even if it is all theater, maybe the smoke and mirrors is effective.
Thank you for that. I'll be less cynical the next time I'm allowed to stand in security queues at an airport. The 1970s and 80s numbers look quite terrifying to someone too young to remember more than blurry Readers Digest articles about Carlos the Jackal.

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Re: Back to school

Post by Seagull » Fri Sep 11, 2020 8:07 am

Does anyone have any thoughts about the info from the C-19 Zoe app which lists the most frequent symptoms for children as headache/fatigue/temp/skipping meals/sore throat, and states that around 50% of symptomatic children might be missed by the NHS's main three symptoms? I understand that the numbers were small, and the NHS symptoms are an attempt to provide a degree of differentiation. Is the Zoe report backed-up elsewhere? Are we looking for the wrong things in schools?

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Re: Back to school

Post by badger » Fri Sep 11, 2020 10:18 am

Seagull wrote:
Fri Sep 11, 2020 8:07 am
Does anyone have any thoughts about the info from the C-19 Zoe app which lists the most frequent symptoms for children as headache/fatigue/temp/skipping meals/sore throat, and states that around 50% of symptomatic children might be missed by the NHS's main three symptoms? I understand that the numbers were small, and the NHS symptoms are an attempt to provide a degree of differentiation. Is the Zoe report backed-up elsewhere? Are we looking for the wrong things in schools?
Think it was Zoe saying a few months back that a rash should be added as frequent symptom for children - have they dropped that now? Also diarrhoea.

Adding sore throat will cause problems as a single symptom - won't have many kids in school at this time of year!

It would be interesting to see if we get any official differentiation.

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Re: Back to school

Post by mediocrity511 » Fri Sep 11, 2020 1:46 pm

badger wrote:
Fri Sep 11, 2020 10:18 am
Seagull wrote:
Fri Sep 11, 2020 8:07 am
Does anyone have any thoughts about the info from the C-19 Zoe app which lists the most frequent symptoms for children as headache/fatigue/temp/skipping meals/sore throat, and states that around 50% of symptomatic children might be missed by the NHS's main three symptoms? I understand that the numbers were small, and the NHS symptoms are an attempt to provide a degree of differentiation. Is the Zoe report backed-up elsewhere? Are we looking for the wrong things in schools?
Think it was Zoe saying a few months back that a rash should be added as frequent symptom for children - have they dropped that now? Also diarrhoea.

Adding sore throat will cause problems as a single symptom - won't have many kids in school at this time of year!

It would be interesting to see if we get any official differentiation.
If we had the testing capacity, it wouldnt be a big deal. Kids would be off for 24 hours with a regular sore throat until results got back. Of course that isn't the case right now.

It would require a culture change in schools away from focus on purely attendance. But I think this year in particular, we need transmission of all common illnesses to be reduced.

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Re: Back to school

Post by FlammableFlower » Fri Sep 11, 2020 3:48 pm

These "year group" bubbles schools have is a hoot. Local school that the wife of one of my colleagues works in has just had to and all of Year 9 into self-isolation (but not any siblings in other year groups...).

Daughter reported that there were only 17 out of 30 in her tutor group and English lesson yesterday... I wonder if parents are just pulling them out of school at the first sign of illness?

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Re: Back to school

Post by JQH » Fri Sep 11, 2020 4:23 pm

A kid in my grandson's "bubble" has tested positive. Didn't take long :roll:
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Re: Back to school

Post by mediocrity511 » Fri Sep 11, 2020 4:36 pm

Miniocrity tested negative thankfully. Went back to school and that day received a party invite from a child in another bubble, passed over by the teachers. And I understand that teachers can't control kids outside of school, but it seems a bit silly to then participate in them being invited to a cross bubble, soon to be illegal gathering.

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Re: Back to school

Post by bagpuss » Fri Sep 11, 2020 9:27 pm

mediocrity511 wrote:
Fri Sep 11, 2020 4:36 pm
Miniocrity tested negative thankfully. Went back to school and that day received a party invite from a child in another bubble, passed over by the teachers. And I understand that teachers can't control kids outside of school, but it seems a bit silly to then participate in them being invited to a cross bubble, soon to be illegal gathering.
Very glad indeed that she tested negative.

In the latest news from our rubbish head teacher. Instead of Y3 & Y5 being picked up at 3:20 followed by Y4 & Y6 at 3:30, it's now going to be:
Y3 @ 3:15
Y5 @ 3:20
Y4 @ 3:25
Y6 @ 3:30

In principle, it makes sense to have them more staggered because what was happening was that the Y3s and Y5s were coming out of 2 different exits at the same time but the Y3s were coming out of a door that meant they would meet their parents and then walk past the Y5 door and through the scrum of the Y5s meeting their parents. So why the f.ck have they staggered it this way? Why not do Y5 then Y3, so the Y5 parents and kids are clear and out of the way when the Y3s emerge? Although then, of course, the Y3s would be marching through the Y4 or Y6 crowd. But the biggest stupidity is 5 minute staggers? Seriously? When it takes at least that long to get all 3 classes in the year out of the door and the first class isn't even coming out on time? The man just doesn't live in the real world. He has his neat little rules and systems and plans that just don't take the untidiness of real humans and life into account and when they don't work we just get stroppy emails reminding us for the nth time to stop crowding together. Grrrrrrr. I do not understand why they don't have one half of the school going out the back entrance, meeting parents in the car park, and then joining the one way system from there, thus separating the two crowds of parents almost entirely. Much more sensible.

Never mind, it's irrelevant to me now anyway - the bagkitten and her 2 best friends have decided that they will meet us at the school site entrance, on the corner by the road, where there's much less chaos and still room to wait and meet. So I don't have to battle through the one way system at all. And it's a nice gradual move towards her greater independence. And I don't have to walk past annoying head with his permanently smug expression. Happy days all round.

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Re: Back to school

Post by mediocrity511 » Sat Sep 12, 2020 7:14 am

That sounds crazy!

I think our school is very lucky in that they have 5 entrances round the school, so with a couple of staggered time slots and lots of queueing dots, it works fairly well. We also have a 15 minute window, which means the queue doesn't get too big.

Only thing that could be better is that the back road that the school is on, has another school the other side of the road. It's already residents parking only, but could really do with being a School Street and closed to traffic entirely when the schools are kicking out or arriving.

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