UK Track and Trace Apps

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Nero
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UK Track and Trace Apps

Post by Nero » Wed Sep 23, 2020 4:49 pm

[*]It looks like the new Track and Trace app is being released on Thursday. Will you be using it? If not, why not?
Last edited by Bird on a Fire on Fri Sep 25, 2020 11:07 am, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: pluralize title

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discovolante
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Re: UK Track and Trace App

Post by discovolante » Wed Sep 23, 2020 5:07 pm

I've got the Scotland one which was released a few weeks ago, mainly out of nosiness to see how many other people have it tbh...1,152,435 so far.
don't get any big ideas, they're not gonna happen

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Grumble
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Re: UK Track and Trace App

Post by Grumble » Wed Sep 23, 2020 10:43 pm

Pretty sure I’ll get it installed. Good that we didn’t spaff loads of money up the wall trying to develop one and went straight to the Google/Apple one.
I know this is vitriol, no solution, spleen venting, but I feel better having screamed, don’t you?

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nekomatic
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Re: UK Track and Trace App

Post by nekomatic » Thu Sep 24, 2020 7:57 am

I’m still using an iPhone 6 which is stuck on iOS 12 so I can’t, but according to the figures I found 80% of active iPhones were running 13 as of June.

It’d be useful to know how that breaks down by demographics in the UK though, as I’d guess the more vulnerable people are the more likely they are to use an older or not updated phone. I don’t expect that data’s available.

I also went looking for a good assessment of how the privacy angle works, in an attempt to offer a rabid response to one of the inevitable ‘well I’m not trusting Apple and Google with my data’ tweets last night, but didn’t readily find one, so if anyone else does then please share.

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Re: UK Track and Trace App

Post by bagpuss » Thu Sep 24, 2020 8:06 am

nekomatic wrote:
Thu Sep 24, 2020 7:57 am
I’m still using an iPhone 6 which is stuck on iOS 12 so I can’t, but according to the figures I found 80% of active iPhones were running 13 as of June.

It’d be useful to know how that breaks down by demographics in the UK though, as I’d guess the more vulnerable people are the more likely they are to use an older or not updated phone. I don’t expect that data’s available.

I also went looking for a good assessment of how the privacy angle works, in an attempt to offer a rabid response to one of the inevitable ‘well I’m not trusting Apple and Google with my data’ tweets last night, but didn’t readily find one, so if anyone else does then please share.
My very much less than state of the art Android is able to run it. And about half of UK mobile phones are Android, so that seems fairly promising.

I have installed it.

badger
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Re: UK Track and Trace App

Post by badger » Thu Sep 24, 2020 8:37 am

Seeing a bit of this sort of thing on the socials this morning:
Anyone downloading the NHS tracing app? It'll be keeping a log on government owned servers of where you've been and who you've been in contact with. I think I'll pass.

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discovolante
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Re: UK Track and Trace App

Post by discovolante » Thu Sep 24, 2020 8:41 am

discovolante wrote:
Wed Sep 23, 2020 5:07 pm
I've got the Scotland one which was released a few weeks ago, mainly out of nosiness to see how many other people have it tbh...1,152,435 so far.
1,170,189 so far this morning. I wonder if the England and Wales one released yesterday will boost registration because it reminds people to do it, or slow it down because people will get all worried about the shitness of the England and Wales one and/or get exposed to more anti-government tracking stuff.

I forgot to note the exact figure the Scotland one reached after the first day of release - it was over 600,000, so I'm not sure of the exact uptake rate but it seems to have been somewhere around 40-45k a day, I think. Roughly.
don't get any big ideas, they're not gonna happen

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Re: UK Track and Trace App

Post by bagpuss » Thu Sep 24, 2020 8:55 am

badger wrote:
Thu Sep 24, 2020 8:37 am
Seeing a bit of this sort of thing on the socials this morning:
Anyone downloading the NHS tracing app? It'll be keeping a log on government owned servers of where you've been and who you've been in contact with. I think I'll pass.
They didn't read the privacy notice properly* if they think that.

It's extremely clear that it's not keeping any record of who you are, at all.


*OK, almost certainly they didn't look at it at all.

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TAFKAsoveda
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Re: UK Track and Trace App

Post by TAFKAsoveda » Thu Sep 24, 2020 11:25 am

Anyone seen the data behind claims in the Times that there is 1/3 false positive contacts because of Bluetooth issues?

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shpalman
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Re: UK Track and Trace App

Post by shpalman » Thu Sep 24, 2020 11:29 am

If it's using the Apple/Google API designed specifically for this, which it is, then it's decentralised, because the UK centralised app didn't work (and Apple/Google introduced the API to allow the decentralised one to work).

Your phone basically sends out random nonsense by Bluetooth and listens for random nonsense from other phones. The past two weeks of random nonsense is recorded along with the the strength at which the Bluetooth signal arrived (I think). If you get a positive covid test then you tell the app and it uploads the past two weeks of nonsense which your phone has been sending to a server.

Everyone's app can then periodically download any nonsense which is known to come from the phone of someone with a positive covid test and check the nonsense it has received against the list. If yes, then the user gets a message about potential exposure.

It counts as decentralised because each phone downloads the list of covid-positive nonsense and checks for itself if it has been exposed to any.

Location information needs to be enabled to allow Bluetooth to work, at least on android, but location data isn't shared. No personally identifying information is shared.
Last edited by shpalman on Thu Sep 24, 2020 11:31 am, edited 1 time in total.
molto tricky

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shpalman
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Re: UK Track and Trace App

Post by shpalman » Thu Sep 24, 2020 11:31 am

TAFKAsoveda wrote:
Thu Sep 24, 2020 11:25 am
Anyone seen the data behind claims in the Times that there is 1/3 false positive contacts because of Bluetooth issues?
Like what happened on the Isle of Wight with the UK centralised app that the Bluetooth signal was strong enough between neighbouring houses that it counted as a contact?
molto tricky

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JQH
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Re: UK Track and Trace App

Post by JQH » Thu Sep 24, 2020 11:46 am

Doesn't appear to be in the app store for my phone and googling just gets news stories about the app rather than the app itself.
And remember that if you botch the exit, the carnival of reaction may be coming to a town near you.

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badger
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Re: UK Track and Trace App

Post by badger » Thu Sep 24, 2020 12:18 pm

bagpuss wrote:
Thu Sep 24, 2020 8:55 am
badger wrote:
Thu Sep 24, 2020 8:37 am
Seeing a bit of this sort of thing on the socials this morning:
Anyone downloading the NHS tracing app? It'll be keeping a log on government owned servers of where you've been and who you've been in contact with. I think I'll pass.
They didn't read the privacy notice properly* if they think that.

It's extremely clear that it's not keeping any record of who you are, at all.


*OK, almost certainly they didn't look at it at all.
Oh god yes. They even later claimed to fill in bogus names on T&T registers at pubs, because they think they'll get asked to isolate unnecessarily and then face a massive fine if they don't. The stupid, it burns etc. One of Boris' many rule breakers, I guess.

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Re: UK Track and Trace App

Post by Hunting Dog » Thu Sep 24, 2020 12:19 pm

Nero wrote:
Wed Sep 23, 2020 4:49 pm
Will you be using it? If not, why not?
Nope

I don't own a smart phone

badger
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Re: UK Track and Trace App

Post by badger » Thu Sep 24, 2020 12:20 pm

shpalman wrote:
Thu Sep 24, 2020 11:29 am
If it's using the Apple/Google API designed specifically for this, which it is, then it's decentralised, because the UK centralised app didn't work (and Apple/Google introduced the API to allow the decentralised one to work).

Your phone basically sends out random nonsense by Bluetooth and listens for random nonsense from other phones. The past two weeks of random nonsense is recorded along with the the strength at which the Bluetooth signal arrived (I think). If you get a positive covid test then you tell the app and it uploads the past two weeks of nonsense which your phone has been sending to a server.

Everyone's app can then periodically download any nonsense which is known to come from the phone of someone with a positive covid test and check the nonsense it has received against the list. If yes, then the user gets a message about potential exposure.

It counts as decentralised because each phone downloads the list of covid-positive nonsense and checks for itself if it has been exposed to any.

Location information needs to be enabled to allow Bluetooth to work, at least on android, but location data isn't shared. No personally identifying information is shared.
Yep, quite a nice overview here https://www.wired.co.uk/article/nhs-cov ... ct-tracing
“All the data that could directly identify you is held on your phone and not shared anywhere else.”

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shpalman
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Re: UK Track and Trace App

Post by shpalman » Thu Sep 24, 2020 1:33 pm

I basically learnt about it from 3Blue1Brown
molto tricky

TheScientificHippy
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Re: UK Track and Trace App

Post by TheScientificHippy » Thu Sep 24, 2020 1:55 pm

Will using other blue tooth functions on my phone reduce the effectiveness of the App? I nearly always have my phone connected to my bluetooth headphones.
Anecdotally, I was out today and the connection between the phone and headphones seemed a lot poorer than normal, but my phone has been being quite rubbish recently so could be anything.

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Re: UK Track and Trace App

Post by bagpuss » Thu Sep 24, 2020 2:03 pm

TheScientificHippy wrote:
Thu Sep 24, 2020 1:55 pm
Will using other blue tooth functions on my phone reduce the effectiveness of the App? I nearly always have my phone connected to my bluetooth headphones.
Anecdotally, I was out today and the connection between the phone and headphones seemed a lot poorer than normal, but my phone has been being quite rubbish recently so could be anything.
Hmmmm, interesting thought. I didn't download the app till after my run this morning but I'm doing a loooooong run on Saturday so if it starts interfering with my headphones, I'll definitely notice then.

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Re: UK Track and Trace App

Post by jimbob » Thu Sep 24, 2020 3:23 pm

badger wrote:
Thu Sep 24, 2020 12:20 pm
shpalman wrote:
Thu Sep 24, 2020 11:29 am
If it's using the Apple/Google API designed specifically for this, which it is, then it's decentralised, because the UK centralised app didn't work (and Apple/Google introduced the API to allow the decentralised one to work).

Your phone basically sends out random nonsense by Bluetooth and listens for random nonsense from other phones. The past two weeks of random nonsense is recorded along with the the strength at which the Bluetooth signal arrived (I think). If you get a positive covid test then you tell the app and it uploads the past two weeks of nonsense which your phone has been sending to a server.

Everyone's app can then periodically download any nonsense which is known to come from the phone of someone with a positive covid test and check the nonsense it has received against the list. If yes, then the user gets a message about potential exposure.

It counts as decentralised because each phone downloads the list of covid-positive nonsense and checks for itself if it has been exposed to any.

Location information needs to be enabled to allow Bluetooth to work, at least on android, but location data isn't shared. No personally identifying information is shared.
Yep, quite a nice overview here https://www.wired.co.uk/article/nhs-cov ... ct-tracing
“All the data that could directly identify you is held on your phone and not shared anywhere else.”
Thanks, shared on Twitter
Have you considered stupidity as an explanation

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murmur
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Re: UK Track and Trace App

Post by murmur » Thu Sep 24, 2020 6:30 pm

Hunting Dog wrote:
Thu Sep 24, 2020 12:19 pm
Nero wrote:
Wed Sep 23, 2020 4:49 pm
Will you be using it? If not, why not?
Nope

I don't own a smart phone
Me neither.

There is one on the house, bought for joint use, but I don't get on with it - sodding thing just doesn't do what I tell it to and I hate touch screens. So I have the old dumb phone wot had been my work one I defibrillated or whatever it is you do...

Dunno what The Bread Goddess is reckoning on doing, but she's still intent on beng as anti-social as possible...
It's so much more attractive inside the moral kiosk

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Grumble
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Re: UK Track and Trace App

Post by Grumble » Thu Sep 24, 2020 6:53 pm

I mentioned it to Mrs Grumble but she hadn’t heard of it before I told her tonight. I’m not sure we’re going to get enough people using it.
I know this is vitriol, no solution, spleen venting, but I feel better having screamed, don’t you?

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Re: UK Track and Trace App

Post by sTeamTraen » Thu Sep 24, 2020 6:59 pm

murmur wrote:
Thu Sep 24, 2020 6:30 pm
Hunting Dog wrote:
Thu Sep 24, 2020 12:19 pm
I don't own a smart phone
Me neither.
There was some complaining on That There Twitter earlier from people who only have an iPhone 6 or something and how this was the evil Tories plotting to force poor people to buy a new iPhone, then dunk on "chavs who spaff all their money up the wall on a new iPhone".

It was pointed out that (a) a lot of people (circa 20% of the UK adult population; I was surprised it was that high tbh) don't have a smartphone at all, whether for cost or disability reasons or just because their life is complete without one, and (b) a reconditioned Android phone can be had for less than £40. Several iPhone users seemed to regard the latter suggestion as akin to telling a hungry vegan Muslim that there's plenty of pork chops on the grill. :lol:
Something something hammer something something nail

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discovolante
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Re: UK Track and Trace App

Post by discovolante » Thu Sep 24, 2020 7:13 pm

discovolante wrote:
Thu Sep 24, 2020 8:41 am
discovolante wrote:
Wed Sep 23, 2020 5:07 pm
I've got the Scotland one which was released a few weeks ago, mainly out of nosiness to see how many other people have it tbh...1,152,435 so far.
1,170,189 so far this morning. I wonder if the England and Wales one released yesterday will boost registration because it reminds people to do it, or slow it down because people will get all worried about the shitness of the England and Wales one and/or get exposed to more anti-government tracking stuff.

I forgot to note the exact figure the Scotland one reached after the first day of release - it was over 600,000, so I'm not sure of the exact uptake rate but it seems to have been somewhere around 40-45k a day, I think. Roughly.
Up to 1,204,453 today now, that's over 50k this morning so maybe the England and Wales one has made a difference to uptake of the Scotland one?

I have no idea how many cases it has tracked though, I will need to look into that.
don't get any big ideas, they're not gonna happen

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Re: UK Track and Trace App

Post by veravista » Thu Sep 24, 2020 9:47 pm

Just had a beer with a mate* who has downloaded the app and he reckons it won't work on Huawei phones. Can't be right, surely.

* He is very tech savvy BTW, not a conspiracy nut job

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jimbob
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Re: UK Track and Trace App

Post by jimbob » Thu Sep 24, 2020 9:56 pm

veravista wrote:
Thu Sep 24, 2020 9:47 pm
Just had a beer with a mate* who has downloaded the app and he reckons it won't work on Huawei phones. Can't be right, surely.

* He is very tech savvy BTW, not a conspiracy nut job
Ah, he could be right. The US is blocking Huawei from Android updates, which is going to backfire as they're going to make their own OS and with the backing of the PLA (a colleague did an internship with them in Shanghai and said it's well known there as well as here) that OS will take off
Have you considered stupidity as an explanation

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