Fomites

Covid-19 discussion, bring your own statistics
raven
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Re: Fomites

Post by raven » Wed Feb 03, 2021 10:06 pm

shpalman wrote:
Wed Feb 03, 2021 6:55 pm
New not-yet-peer-reviewed research suggests that NHS staff are at even greater risk than thought from patients coughing

What? Staff caring for Covid patients don't have FFP3 masks? Why the hell not?

Herainestold
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Re: Fomites

Post by Herainestold » Wed Feb 03, 2021 10:10 pm

Fishnut wrote:
Wed Feb 03, 2021 11:15 am
shpalman wrote:
Wed Feb 03, 2021 8:43 am
... a tweet linking to

Coronavirus is in the air — there’s too much focus on surfaces

... which is an editorial linking to Exaggerated risk of transmission of COVID-19 by fomites by E. Goldman in The Lancet. Infectious Diseases, 03 Jul 2020, 20(8):892-893 which is dated July so I don't know why it's coming up now (or if it's not out of date).
I think it's coming up now because people/authorities are still focusing on surfaces and ignoring ventilation despite much research showing that it is one of the key factors that need to be controlled to prevent transmission. I suspect also, in the summer when people could do stuff outside, ventilation was lower down people's priorities but now that it's winter stuffing people into rooms with the windows closed to keep the heat is being recognised as a Bad Idea.
Wiping and sanitizing everything might be tedious but you can get busy and do it. Ventilation is tricky because you can't see it and you likely don't know what to do about it apart from opening the window. So just scrub some more.
Vaccination saves lives. Lockdowns stop transmission.

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jdc
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Re: Fomites

Post by jdc » Wed Feb 03, 2021 10:28 pm

raven wrote:
Wed Feb 03, 2021 10:06 pm
shpalman wrote:
Wed Feb 03, 2021 6:55 pm
New not-yet-peer-reviewed research suggests that NHS staff are at even greater risk than thought from patients coughing

What? Staff caring for Covid patients don't have FFP3 masks? Why the hell not?
Well you know how tricky it is to source PPE. We tried everything - bunging money to pub landlords we used to live down the road from, buying 400,000 gowns from Turkey that didn't meet standards, throwing cash at party donors who run firms supplying home accessories, giving a contract to a confectionary wholesaler.

What else were we supposed to do? Reply to the emails we received from PPE suppliers?

God!

raven
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Re: Fomites

Post by raven » Wed Feb 03, 2021 10:34 pm

But we bought loads of PPE. Hancock kept saying so. All those FFP3 masks that didn't meet our standards....

Oh. Wait.

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jdc
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Re: Fomites

Post by jdc » Wed Feb 03, 2021 10:36 pm

Herainestold wrote:
Wed Feb 03, 2021 10:10 pm
Fishnut wrote:
Wed Feb 03, 2021 11:15 am
shpalman wrote:
Wed Feb 03, 2021 8:43 am
... a tweet linking to

Coronavirus is in the air — there’s too much focus on surfaces

... which is an editorial linking to Exaggerated risk of transmission of COVID-19 by fomites by E. Goldman in The Lancet. Infectious Diseases, 03 Jul 2020, 20(8):892-893 which is dated July so I don't know why it's coming up now (or if it's not out of date).
I think it's coming up now because people/authorities are still focusing on surfaces and ignoring ventilation despite much research showing that it is one of the key factors that need to be controlled to prevent transmission. I suspect also, in the summer when people could do stuff outside, ventilation was lower down people's priorities but now that it's winter stuffing people into rooms with the windows closed to keep the heat is being recognised as a Bad Idea.
Wiping and sanitizing everything might be tedious but you can get busy and do it. Ventilation is tricky because you can't see it and you likely don't know what to do about it apart from opening the window. So just scrub some more.
EPA and CDC recommend opening a window, so you've got the right answer there. simple, but apparently effective.

5 windows in the CDC PDF https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-nc ... idance.pdf and the EPA has more advice on ventilation (opening windows gets top billing, mind) https://www.epa.gov/coronavirus/indoor- ... s-covid-19

EPA even has advice on how to increase ventilation once you've opened your window and put a fan on:
To increase natural ventilation:
Open more than one window or door, if possible. Do not open windows and doors if doing so poses a safety or health risk to children or other family members (e.g., risk of falling or triggering asthma symptoms).
Ventilation can be further increased through cross-ventilation, by opening windows (or doors) at opposite sides of a home and keeping internal doors open.
Opening the highest and lowest windows in a home at the same time (especially on different floors) can also help to increase ventilation.
For double-hung windows (the most common type), opening the top sash of one window and the bottom sash of another also encourages ventilation. Even when using a single window, partially opening both the top and bottom sash can help improve ventilation.
Consider using indoor fans in combination with open doors or windows to further increase ventilation. In addition to specialized window fans, box fans or tower fans can be placed in front of a window. Fans can face toward the window (blowing air out of the window) or away from the window (blowing air into the room).

For additional ventilation, multiple fans can be used to push air out of one window and draw it in from another.
If a single fan is used, it should be facing (and blowing air) in the same direction the air is naturally moving. You can determine the direction the air is naturally moving by observing the movement of drapes or by holding a light fabric or dropping paper clippings and noting which direction they move.
The direction the air is blowing (in or out of the home) from a particular window or door may change at times, especially on windy days. If these changes are frequent, try moving the fan to another location. Also, you may not need to use a fan on windy days.
To help reduce risks of airborne transmission, direct the airflow of the fan so that is does not blow directly from one person to another.
Caution: Use caution when operating fans, particularly when children are present. Position fans so they are out of reach of small children and so they are stable and won’t fall over easily. Consider using a tower or other fan where the blades are concealed or completely shielded.

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shpalman
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Re: Fomites

Post by shpalman » Sat Feb 27, 2021 7:31 pm

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-n ... xperts-say
it has become clear surface transmission is not as significant a factor in Covid-19 spread as once feared
molto tricky

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bob sterman
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Re: Fomites

Post by bob sterman » Sat Feb 27, 2021 7:47 pm

With SARS-CoV-1 - as there were far fewer cases (i.e. it wasn't all over the place) tracing routes of tranmission was perhaps easier.

And one important study concluded that fomites may have played a "non-negligible role" in transmission...

Role of fomites in SARS transmission during the largest hospital outbreak in Hong Kong
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5519164/

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jimbob
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Re: Fomites

Post by jimbob » Sun Feb 28, 2021 2:13 pm

raven wrote:
Wed Feb 03, 2021 10:06 pm
shpalman wrote:
Wed Feb 03, 2021 6:55 pm
New not-yet-peer-reviewed research suggests that NHS staff are at even greater risk than thought from patients coughing

What? Staff caring for Covid patients don't have FFP3 masks? Why the hell not?
That would be shocking. Except that I've seen too much of hospitals recently playing at being a taxi, and the staff, patients, and visitors tend to get the surgical masks only.

I saw one medic on Twitter recently stating that he used his FFP3 mask for the Tube, and then had to wear a less-effective one when he actually got to hospital.
Have you considered stupidity as an explanation

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Brightonian
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Re: Fomites

Post by Brightonian » Mon Mar 22, 2021 12:10 am

jimbob wrote:
Mon Oct 12, 2020 2:50 pm
We seem to have started concentrating on aerosols, but we do know from New Zealand that these are still potential problems:


https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/427 ... -infection
The Ministry of Health has identified a rubbish bin as the probable source of a recent Covid-19 case - a similar event to the case of a worker in Auckland who was infected by a lift button.
And cool, dark, damp areas that preserve organic material tend to prolong the viability of the virus.
Via this good Twitter thread, it looks like the bin was innocent all along, and it was aerosols: https://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/27/5/21-0514_article

Herainestold
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Re: Fomites

Post by Herainestold » Mon Mar 22, 2021 1:01 am

Keep those windows open.

I did see where somebody was speculating that clouds of aerosols could drift from town to town.
Vaccination saves lives. Lockdowns stop transmission.

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jimbob
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Re: Fomites

Post by jimbob » Mon Mar 22, 2021 8:37 am

Brightonian wrote:
Mon Mar 22, 2021 12:10 am
jimbob wrote:
Mon Oct 12, 2020 2:50 pm
We seem to have started concentrating on aerosols, but we do know from New Zealand that these are still potential problems:


https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/427 ... -infection
The Ministry of Health has identified a rubbish bin as the probable source of a recent Covid-19 case - a similar event to the case of a worker in Auckland who was infected by a lift button.
And cool, dark, damp areas that preserve organic material tend to prolong the viability of the virus.
Via this good Twitter thread, it looks like the bin was innocent all along, and it was aerosols: https://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/27/5/21-0514_article
Very good thread - it does raise questions about the lift button. Especially if the air change in the lift was poor
Have you considered stupidity as an explanation

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