Vaccine Refusers

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nezumi
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Vaccine Refusers

Post by nezumi » Tue Nov 10, 2020 2:41 pm

So there's already talk of people refusing the vaccine because *insert bollocks here*. I hate the idea of forcing people to get a vaccine, but the only other thing I can think of is to keep them in lockdown until their contribution to herd immunity doesn't matter as much.

Opinions?

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mediocrity511
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Re: Vaccine Refusers

Post by mediocrity511 » Tue Nov 10, 2020 4:02 pm

Is it there some talk that the immunity from these particular vaccines is designed to reduce disease severity and not provide sterilizing immunity?

We also aren't planning to vaccinate the entire population. There's a very long list of priority and anyone without underlying conditions and below the age of about 55 will likely be waiting a long time for a vaccine. There could be a case for some level of mandating for care home staff and certain medical staff. But if someone elderly and vulnerable turns down their shot, then that's someone a bit less elderly or a bit less vulnerable who gets a chance and can live without fear.

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Re: Vaccine Refusers

Post by Herainestold » Tue Nov 10, 2020 4:15 pm

It will be better when there is a choice of vaccines

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Sciolus
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Re: Vaccine Refusers

Post by Sciolus » Tue Nov 10, 2020 4:17 pm

No it won't because tw.ts will spread lies about all of them.

Chris Preston
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Re: Vaccine Refusers

Post by Chris Preston » Tue Nov 10, 2020 11:06 pm

nezumi wrote:
Tue Nov 10, 2020 2:41 pm
So there's already talk of people refusing the vaccine because *insert bollocks here*. I hate the idea of forcing people to get a vaccine, but the only other thing I can think of is to keep them in lockdown until their contribution to herd immunity doesn't matter as much.

Opinions?
There is not going to be enough vaccine available initially for this to matter much. So in the first instance, let it go and give the vaccine to someone else. As you get closer to the community immunity threshold, then provide disincentives for not vaccinating.

One example. Here, we currently seem to have no cases of community transmission, but you also need to get permission from the Government to travel overseas and all incoming travelers have to quarantine for 14 days in quarantine hotels. Allowing people with evidence of vaccination to travel overseas and skip the quarantine step on their return (like we already do for things like yellow fever) would be one.

We also have a need to apply for permission to enter some states. A requirement for vaccination could be placed there.

Almost certainly we will have a requirement for vaccination to be allowed to work in the health care sector including in nursing homes.

In all these, there would need to be an exemption for medical reasons, but not for any other reason.
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Re: Vaccine Refusers

Post by Boustrophedon » Wed Nov 11, 2020 10:50 am

The adenovirus vector vaccines being developed by AstraZeneca with the University of Oxford, would seem to be a solution to this, the problem for idiots refusers may well be avoiding it rather that just choosing not to have the vaccine.
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Re: Vaccine Refusers

Post by Turdly » Wed Nov 11, 2020 12:55 pm

Boustrophedon wrote:
Wed Nov 11, 2020 10:50 am
The adenovirus vector vaccines being developed by AstraZeneca with the University of Oxford, would seem to be a solution to this, the problem for idiots refusers may well be avoiding it rather that just choosing not to have the vaccine.
The adenoviral vectors used in vaccines or oncolytic therapies are not replication competent and need growing in helper cells. As such it is not likely to be transmissible. This is by design to prevent spread of the vector itself.
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sTeamTraen
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Re: Vaccine Refusers

Post by sTeamTraen » Wed Nov 11, 2020 12:59 pm

The idea of doing something actively disadvantageous to vaccine refusers, especially at this stage, seems to me to be mostly based on a desire (entirely understandable) to GET THESE STUPID c.nts TO GET A f.cking CLUE INTO THEIR THICK f.cking HEADS. (By "actively disadvantageous" I mean things like "You can't come out of lockdown". Apart from anything else, you would need some way to identify who is walking around having had or not had the vaccine. Good job with the civil liberties aspects of that. I'm quite happy that before you can get on a place you have to show your yellow vaccine book with a hologram sticker from the Pfizer box or whatever.)

I share that frustration. But I think that at this stage it's unnecessary, ethically dubious, and a potential own goal.

I am 100% pro-vaccines in general and in this specific case --- I will absolutely be queuing up for this one, while keeping 2 metres away from everyone else in the queue --- but we don't know what the protection rate is (it will not be 100%), we don't know what the effective period is (it will probably not be for life), and we don't know what the side-effects will be (they will not be zero). Of course, having the vaccine is likely to be overwhelmingly a better idea than not having it, but it's a brand new development, with results that, although impressive, are not yet at the slam-dunk stage. On that basis it's very hard for the state to exact violence (in the sense of Max Weber) against its citizens who refuse.

I also don't think that the same arguments about the need for it to be taken up by everybody apply in the way that they do to childhood vaccines. The major argument about why everyone should get, say, a measles jab is because we need 95% coverage or whatever to give herd immunity to those who are most likely to be hurt and who can't be vaccinated, which typically means babies because they aren't old enough to be vaccinated. In the case of COVID that doesn't seem to apply since as far as we know under-10s mostly shrug it off.

So if the vaccine works, the harm caused by the people who refuse it will mostly come to themselves. Darwin innit.
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Re: Vaccine Refusers

Post by KAJ » Wed Nov 11, 2020 2:23 pm

Chris Preston wrote:
Tue Nov 10, 2020 11:06 pm
One example. Here, we currently seem to have no cases of community transmission, but you also need to get permission from the Government to travel overseas and all incoming travelers have to quarantine for 14 days in quarantine hotels.
Gentle request to everyone, not just CP. If your profile doesn't not show your location can you be more specific when you say "here!? I (and I guess many others) don't (can't :oops:) remember such detail. I'm aware I forget as well, so I've just added "UK" to my profile.

nezumi
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Re: Vaccine Refusers

Post by nezumi » Wed Nov 11, 2020 6:14 pm

KAJ wrote:
Wed Nov 11, 2020 2:23 pm
Gentle request to everyone, not just CP. If your profile doesn't not show your location can you be more specific when you say "here!? I (and I guess many others) don't (can't :oops:) remember such detail. I'm aware I forget as well, so I've just added "UK" to my profile.
Good shout that. Changed mine too.
sTeamTraen wrote:
Wed Nov 11, 2020 12:59 pm
Important things...
Honestly, you have no idea how much I daily hate anti-vax types but I agree that it's extremely dodgy to start making people produce papers in the street, I'm absolutely against national ID cards f'rinstance. Others have pointed out, quite rightly, that there won't be enough vaccine for everyone for a very long time so I can only hope that I'm fairly early on in the priority list. Never mind potentially saving my life, my mental health is in the shed and getting some normality back would do wonders. Even when there is a vaccine, I suspect it'll be done like the flu vaccine. Hopefully they'll find a way to do it at the same time.


And predictably...

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Re: Vaccine Refusers

Post by Chris Preston » Thu Nov 12, 2020 9:48 pm

KAJ wrote:
Wed Nov 11, 2020 2:23 pm
Chris Preston wrote:
Tue Nov 10, 2020 11:06 pm
One example. Here, we currently seem to have no cases of community transmission, but you also need to get permission from the Government to travel overseas and all incoming travelers have to quarantine for 14 days in quarantine hotels.
Gentle request to everyone, not just CP. If your profile doesn't not show your location can you be more specific when you say "here!? I (and I guess many others) don't (can't :oops:) remember such detail. I'm aware I forget as well, so I've just added "UK" to my profile.
Sorry about that. I am so used to people online researching me and having a pop at me being in the pay of Big Agriculture, that I forget there are people who don't do this.

I live in Australia.
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Stephanie
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Re: Vaccine Refusers

Post by Stephanie » Fri Nov 13, 2020 11:12 am

hello, done a thread split at the request of some folk - ID card discussion continues here in weighty matters
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Re: Vaccine Refusers

Post by Little waster » Fri Nov 13, 2020 12:49 pm

nezumi wrote:
Wed Nov 11, 2020 6:14 pm
And predictably...
Three guesses what the stance of the Society of Homeopath's Safeguarding and Professional Standards Director is.

https://goodthinkingsociety.org/psa-to- ... ory-posts/

Presumably her next blog will examine the many health benefits of running around corners with scissors.
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bob sterman
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Re: Vaccine Refusers

Post by bob sterman » Sat Nov 14, 2020 8:11 pm

There are some really weird vaccine conspiracy theories out there - just saw this posted on Twitter...
OT: Do you know of any other vaccine (or any medication) that has to be stored at such extremely low temperatures? What's the reason? What's in there? What effect does the temperature have? Does superconductivity play a role?
:shock:

nezumi
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Re: Vaccine Refusers

Post by nezumi » Sun Nov 15, 2020 2:20 pm

bob sterman wrote:
Sat Nov 14, 2020 8:11 pm
There are some really weird vaccine conspiracy theories out there - just saw this posted on Twitter...
OT: Do you know of any other vaccine (or any medication) that has to be stored at such extremely low temperatures? What's the reason? What's in there? What effect does the temperature have? Does superconductivity play a role?
:shock:
This is what happens when you read popular science magazines with only a science dual award at GCSE.

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sTeamTraen
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Re: Vaccine Refusers

Post by sTeamTraen » Tue Nov 17, 2020 4:09 pm

The existence of multiple vaccines makes me wonder: What happens if someone accepts the principle of getting a vaccine, but refuses one vaccine and demands a different one?

For example, one might reject the AstraZeneca vaccine because it contains "Extract Of Dead Baby™", or the Pfizer vaccine because you're a Trump supporter and they didn't take Warp Speed money, or company X's vaccine because you are a Biden supporter and company X did take Warp Speed money. Or you might do some "research" (or even actual research, who knows) and decide that you don't like the side-effect profile of vaccine A which is on offer at your local health centre, so you want to drive 100 miles to get vaccine B (perhaps over a state/national border), and you'd still like your healthcare system or insurance to pick up the tab.
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Sciolus
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Re: Vaccine Refusers

Post by Sciolus » Tue Nov 17, 2020 8:01 pm

When the HPV vaccine was introduced, the UK went with Cervarix, but several people (notably MD from Private Eye) recommended people get Gardasil instead, because it gave better protection against genital warts. This was possible, but I believe you had to pay to get Gardasil. (Subsequently the NHS changed to Gardasil anyway.)

So it will probably be possible to get a different vaccine from the one you're offered, as long as it's licensed, but it may involve hassle and expense. In the UK anyway.

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Re: Vaccine Refusers

Post by jdc » Tue Nov 17, 2020 8:12 pm

sTeamTraen wrote:
Tue Nov 17, 2020 4:09 pm
The existence of multiple vaccines makes me wonder: What happens if someone accepts the principle of getting a vaccine, but refuses one vaccine and demands a different one?

For example, one might reject the AstraZeneca vaccine because it contains "Extract Of Dead Baby™", or the Pfizer vaccine because you're a Trump supporter and they didn't take Warp Speed money, or company X's vaccine because you are a Biden supporter and company X did take Warp Speed money. Or you might do some "research" (or even actual research, who knows) and decide that you don't like the side-effect profile of vaccine A which is on offer at your local health centre, so you want to drive 100 miles to get vaccine B (perhaps over a state/national border), and you'd still like your healthcare system or insurance to pick up the tab.
This is basically what happened with MMR. You had parents demanding single measles vaccine, and TPTB basically said 'nope, because MMR is the best vaccine available and we're not in the business of giving people inferior treatments'.

Whether they'd dictate which vaccine people took if it were less clear-cut than measles vax vs MMR I dunno.

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Re: Vaccine Refusers

Post by jdc » Tue Nov 17, 2020 8:14 pm

That said, they were only dictating which vaccine you got through the NHS. You could go private and get single measles jabs.

Here's something from 2014: https://www.gov.uk/government/publicati ... nts-choose
Parents are free to choose whether to protect their children, as no vaccination is compulsory in the UK. The majority follow the good advice of their health visitor, practice nurse or GP and protect their children with MMR.

The NHS has a responsibility to offer the best available protection, which is MMR.
It tells them very clearly not to go for single jabs but it also advises parents on what they should do if they're foolish enough to ignore that advice.

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shpalman
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Re: Vaccine Refusers

Post by shpalman » Tue Nov 17, 2020 8:19 pm

It depends if the barrier is sheer availability rather than cost. I'd be willing to pay for the vaccine for myself* in the sense that I don't need the other taxpayers** to pay for it for me, but I wouldn't want to jump the queue which meant someone who needed it more than I did would have to wait longer for it.***

* - last year I paid for the 'flu vaccine for myself since I wasn't in a category entitled to get it for free; it was about €40** but the process of paying for it had not been made simple.

** - in practice, health expenses like this can be offset against tax to some extent.

*** - yes I know my actions as an individual make very little difference but the point is what if everyone did what I was doing.
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