Covid and MMR

Covid-19 discussion, bring your own statistics
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Tessa K
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Covid and MMR

Post by Tessa K » Mon Nov 23, 2020 12:52 pm

This article suggests that
A new study has theorized that the MMR vaccine could provide potential protection against, as well as reduce the severity, of the coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19). The theory behind the study was first put forth in March of 2020, after observations that countries with the fewest COVID-19 deaths had recent, large scale MMR vaccination campaigns. The study, published in mBio, shows that the levels of mumps IgG antibodies are inversely correlated with the level of severity in COVID-19 patients who have recovered and were previously vaccinated with the MMR II. No age associated factors, like a prevalence of comorbidities, showed any significant correlations with severity of illness or titer values. This eliminates the possibility that the inverse correlations observed were age related.
Can someone who knows about this stuff tell us if it's a Good Idea or not? Also, what about people who had measles and mumps as children? Do they have enough antibodies?

Also, if it is real the anti-vaxxers' heads are going to explode.

https://www.contagionlive.com/view/mmr- ... i86hoxR9bA

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Re: Covid and MMR

Post by Stephanie » Mon Nov 23, 2020 2:10 pm

I asked mikeh, and he's sent me this link from the Science Media Centre - couple of responses on there that may help.

https://www.sciencemediacentre.org/expe ... -severity/
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Re: Covid and MMR

Post by jdc » Mon Nov 23, 2020 9:06 pm

Stephanie wrote:
Mon Nov 23, 2020 2:10 pm
I asked mikeh, and he's sent me this link from the Science Media Centre - couple of responses on there that may help.

https://www.sciencemediacentre.org/expe ... -severity/
Dr Simon Clarke, Associate Professor of Cellular Microbiology at the University of Reading, said:

“The authors of this study show that people with higher amounts of antibodies reactive to the mumps virus, had less severe Covid-19 symptoms. Unfortunately, the authors appear not to have determined the total concentration of antibodies in the blood of these patients, so it might be the case that they just had higher concentrations of all antibodies in their blood, not just those which are reactive to mumps. This merely demonstrates a correlation, which as always is not evidence of causation. There is no confirmation that it is the anti-mumps antibodies that is causing the decrease in severity of symptoms.”
The authors looked at concentrations of antibodies to mumps, measles, and rubella. They found no link between covid severity and levels of measles or rubella antibodies but did find a link between severity and mumps antibodies. So is this criticism really valid?

From this abstract: https://mbio.asm.org/content/11/6/e02628-20
Our aim was to determine whether any MMR IgG titers are inversely correlated with severity in recovered COVID-19 patients previously vaccinated with MMR II.
There was a significant inverse correlation (rs = −0.71, P < 0.001) between mumps virus titers (mumps titers) and COVID-19 severity within the MMR II group. There were no significant correlations between mumps titers and severity in the comparison group, between mumps titers and age in the MMR II group, or between severity and measles or rubella titers in either group.
Methods:
MMR IgG titers were measured in 80 adults who had consented to join our study.
Mumps, measles, and rubella IgG titers were measured by Quest Diagnostics using Liaison analyzers with chemiluminescence immunoassay (CLIA) technology for the qualitative determination of IgG antibodies in human serum specimens. The method for qualitative determination of each specific IgG corresponding to each virus was an indirect CLIA.
Discussion:
The significant inverse correlations that we observed in the MMR II group between mumps titers and severity, as well as between mumps titers and symptom scores, indicate that there is an association between mumps titers and COVID-19. This significant inverse correlation existed at all ages. In contrast, similar associations were not identified for measles or rubella titers.

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Tessa K
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Re: Covid and MMR

Post by Tessa K » Tue Nov 24, 2020 12:45 pm

jdc wrote:
Mon Nov 23, 2020 9:06 pm

Discussion:
The significant inverse correlations that we observed in the MMR II group between mumps titers and severity, as well as between mumps titers and symptom scores, indicate that there is an association between mumps titers and COVID-19. This significant inverse correlation existed at all ages. In contrast, similar associations were not identified for measles or rubella titers.
(Pause to look up what 'titers' are)

If the correlation exists at all ages, that must include people who were too old to have had the MMR vaccine??

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Re: Covid and MMR

Post by JQH » Tue Nov 24, 2020 12:58 pm

Tessa K wrote:
Tue Nov 24, 2020 12:45 pm

If the correlation exists at all ages, that must include people who were too old to have had the MMR vaccine??
Handy if true. I had mumps as a kid.
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Re: Covid and MMR

Post by basementer » Tue Nov 24, 2020 5:52 pm

Tessa K wrote:
Tue Nov 24, 2020 12:45 pm
jdc wrote:
Mon Nov 23, 2020 9:06 pm

Discussion:
The significant inverse correlations that we observed in the MMR II group between mumps titers and severity, as well as between mumps titers and symptom scores, indicate that there is an association between mumps titers and COVID-19. This significant inverse correlation existed at all ages. In contrast, similar associations were not identified for measles or rubella titers.
(Pause to look up what 'titers' are)

If the correlation exists at all ages, that must include people who were too old to have had the MMR vaccine??
No. The correlation was found only in the subjects who had received the vaccine. The paper says
a comparison group of 30 subjects consisted of those who would primarily have MMR antibodies from sources other than MMR II, including prior measles, mumps, and/or rubella illnesses... There were no significant correlations between mumps titers and severity in the comparison group
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Re: Covid and MMR

Post by nezumi » Wed Nov 25, 2020 3:09 pm

What would be the mechanism by which MMR would give immunity? (I might know a bit about viruses but I know basically nowt about immunology)

At a quick reading of info about each virus, they all bind in different ways, to different cells, producing different results in totally different ways. They're not even all in the same Baltimore group! How could immunity to any one of measles, mumps or rubella cause any change in immunity to Covid?

Someone please educate me, I need to know!
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Re: Covid and MMR

Post by jdc » Wed Nov 25, 2020 3:29 pm

nezumi wrote:
Wed Nov 25, 2020 3:09 pm
What would be the mechanism by which MMR would give immunity? (I might know a bit about viruses but I know basically nowt about immunology)

At a quick reading of info about each virus, they all bind in different ways, to different cells, producing different results in totally different ways. They're not even all in the same Baltimore group! How could immunity to any one of measles, mumps or rubella cause any change in immunity to Covid?

Someone please educate me, I need to know!
non-specific effects innit?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-speci ... f_vaccines

Seems to have been studies more with BCG than other vaccines. E.g., https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/a ... 3X19301971
Numerous epidemiological, clinical and immunological studies demonstrate that BCG vaccination impacts the immune response to subsequent infections, resulting in reduced morbidity and mortality. Important lines of evidence indicating that BCG protects against viral pathogens comes from experimental studies in mice showing that BCG offers protection against various DNA and RNA viruses, including herpes and influenza viruses. Recently, the effect of BCG on an experimental viral infection in humans has been demonstrated. These effects are thought to be mediated via the induction of innate immune memory and heterologous lymphocyte activation, resulting in enhanced cytokine production, macrophage activity, T-cell responses and antibody titres.

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jdc
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Re: Covid and MMR

Post by jdc » Wed Nov 25, 2020 5:47 pm

That should be "studied" rather than "studies".

Also, I'm now wondering why mumps vaccine would have non-specific effects and measles/rubella wouldn't. That wiki page says
Non-specific effects can be strongly beneficial by increasing protection against non-targeted infections.[1] This has been shown with two live attenuated vaccines, BCG vaccine and measles vaccine, through multiple randomized controlled trials.
Are they actually suggesting that mumps vaccine offers specific protection then? f.ck knows how that works. (Maybe it doesn't and the result is bobbins.)

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Re: Covid and MMR

Post by jdc » Wed Nov 25, 2020 6:01 pm

This seems to reckon vaccines aren't cross-protective - with the exception of DTP: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7596387/
We found that viruses subject to pediatric vaccinations do not contain cross-reactive epitopes with SARS-CoV-2, precluding that they can provide any general protection against COVID-19. Likewise, common viruses including rhinovirus, respiratory syncytial virus, influenza virus, and several herpesviruses are also poor or null sources of cross-reactive immunity to SARS-CoV-2, discarding that immunological memory against these viruses can have any general protective or pathological role in COVID-19. In contrast, we found combination vaccines for treating diphtheria, tetanus, and pertussis infectious diseases (DTP vaccine) to be significant sources of potential cross-reactive immunity to SARS-CoV-2. DTP cross-reactive epitopes with SARS-CoV-2 include numerous CD8 and CD4 T cell epitopes with broad population protection coverage and potentially neutralizing B cell epitopes in SARS-CoV-2 Spike protein.

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