Vaccine rollout in the UK

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Re: Vaccine rollout in the UK

Post by shpalman » Sat Dec 12, 2020 11:35 am

Up to 40% of care workers in the UK might refuse to have the coronavirus vaccine, Nadra Ahmed, the chair of the National Care Association, who knows “that between 50%-60%, depending on individual services, the staff are actually saying they will definitely have the vaccine and are very keen,” and “between about 17-20% of staff in services are saying they definitely won’t have it, and then you have the rest who are waiting to see. So we are looking at potentially 40% who decide not to have it” and futhermore thinks that “people will start to change their minds as the vaccine becomes more readily available and they see colleagues having it,” and that “the uncertainty rests somewhere around fear but then also there are people with conditions who are being advised not to have it, so the picture is a little bit hazy at the moment but we are doing all we can” said.
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Re: Rod Liddle on Teachers

Post by AMS » Sat Dec 12, 2020 9:58 pm

Post moved here from the Rod Liddle thread
mediocrity511 wrote:
Sat Dec 12, 2020 9:14 pm
This diatribe just happens to coincide with the government admission that secondary schools really are entirely f.cked and a significant driver of infections, at least in London, Kent and Essex. He's a f.cking useful idiot, distracting from what government policy is doing.

And teaching unions have been so ineffectual, it's beyond a joke. I don't know how they've been painted as such bogeyman, when as far as I can see they've not mustered any significant resistance to the conditions their members find themselves in.
Maybe the wrong thread for it, but should secondary school kids be brought higher up the vaccination priority list? Although they are not the most vulnerable, if they are one of the biggest vectors for the virus, we need to deal with that. It's exactly the rationale for flu vaccinations in primary age kids. School age kids have far more household contact with more vulnerable age groups than uni students in halls of residence do.

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Re: Vaccine rollout in the UK

Post by shpalman » Sun Dec 13, 2020 12:08 pm

Prof Gilbert has said chances were “pretty high” of the Oxford/AstraZeneca jab being available by the end of the year.

It's not even obvious to me how available the Pfizer vaccine will be by the end of the year, and that one's been approved and doses of it have arrived.
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Re: Vaccine rollout in the UK

Post by Bird on a Fire » Sun Dec 13, 2020 2:41 pm

How come antivax sentiment is so high with these vaccines? 40% of CARE WORKERS is terrible - and a much higher percentage of people vaccinate their kids, so this is covid specific. On the one hand we've had 9 months demonstration of why being susceptible to infectious diseases is bad. On the other...they're very new, I guess? Is that it?
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Re: Vaccine rollout in the UK

Post by shpalman » Sun Dec 13, 2020 3:03 pm

Well those two people who already had history of allergy did have allergies while hundreds of people die every day from the actual virus.

If the vaccine really doesn't make much difference in asymptomatic spread then I'm a bit more relaxed about people choosing not to get vaccinated as long as it means the dose quickly goes to the next person in line. On the other hand if it leads to doses from already-opened boxes being thrown away, because there wasn't time to give it to whoever was next in line, that's something else.
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Re: Vaccine rollout in the UK

Post by discovolante » Sun Dec 13, 2020 3:10 pm

Bird on a Fire wrote:
Sun Dec 13, 2020 2:41 pm
How come antivax sentiment is so high with these vaccines? 40% of CARE WORKERS is terrible - and a much higher percentage of people vaccinate their kids, so this is covid specific. On the one hand we've had 9 months demonstration of why being susceptible to infectious diseases is bad. On the other...they're very new, I guess? Is that it?
I wonder if some of them feel that they've managed this long, why take a risk with a new vaccine?
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Re: Vaccine rollout in the UK

Post by jimbob » Sun Dec 13, 2020 4:23 pm

Fishnut wrote:
Tue Dec 08, 2020 1:35 pm
I was listening to More or Less the other day, their episode Vaccines: How Safe and Who Gets It? and one thing that struck me was that the entire discussion was framed as reducing mortality, without any mention at all about morbidity. I'm totally on board with wanting to reduce the deaths from covid but I am a bit concerned that by focusing exclusively on mortality, we are ignoring the potential long-term health impacts that getting and recovering from covid can cause. Am I missing something?

Also, I see that people in care homes are top priority but is there anything about those receiving care in the community? They often have a lot of carers/nurses a day, and often lots of different ones rather than the same ones which would (I'm guessing) make them more vulnerable to being exposed.
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Re: Vaccine rollout in the UK

Post by noggins » Sun Dec 13, 2020 5:02 pm

Could care homes legally sack staff who wont get vaccinated?

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Re: Vaccine rollout in the UK

Post by border_reiver » Sun Dec 13, 2020 9:50 pm

noggins wrote:
Sun Dec 13, 2020 5:02 pm
Could care homes legally sack staff who wont get vaccinated?
It could be a condition of employment. Some vaccines are in NHS for direct patient facing staff.
And there's a lot of strong encouragement to have flu vac each year.

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Re: Vaccine rollout in the UK

Post by monkey » Mon Dec 14, 2020 5:45 pm

border_reiver wrote:
Sun Dec 13, 2020 9:50 pm
noggins wrote:
Sun Dec 13, 2020 5:02 pm
Could care homes legally sack staff who wont get vaccinated?
It could be a condition of employment. Some vaccines are in NHS for direct patient facing staff.
And there's a lot of strong encouragement to have flu vac each year.
In my job in the US, I have to be vaccinated against a few things and tested regularly for TB (even though I was vaccinated against that and can show them the scar, I think this is what makes it come up almost positive every year). I can be sacked for that, as it would prevent me from doing my job safely (without doing it in a hazmat suit or summat, which would just prevent me doing my job).

Then again, I can be sacked for pretty much anything. Very little protection in the law for me. But at least in this case it makes sense, and I wouldn't be surprised if an employer could make a similar argument in the UK.

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Re: Vaccine rollout in the UK

Post by Turdly » Mon Dec 14, 2020 6:40 pm

For some labs (e.g. ones that handle primary human tissue) Hep B vaccination is usually a requirement of the risk assessment. There will be exemptions from this on medical grounds but if are medically exempted from the vaccine you probably shouldn't be handling stuff from a company previously called Bioreclamation .

Refusal on non-medical grounds would probably be a non-starter, the same as refusing to wear mandatory PPE would get you multiple disciplinary processes with the last being termination of contract
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Re: Vaccine rollout in the UK

Post by bolo » Mon Dec 14, 2020 7:12 pm

I posted this in another thread already, and it's US, not UK, but in case it's of interest: When Employers Can Require COVID-19 Vaccinations

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Re: Vaccine rollout in the UK

Post by PeteB » Tue Dec 15, 2020 4:39 pm


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Re: Vaccine rollout in the UK

Post by shpalman » Tue Dec 15, 2020 6:41 pm

So how's it going?

Prue Leith has been vaccinated only "a week after the NHS began [the] mass immunisation campaign".

I suppose GBBO judges were in a category slightly lower than young Italian physiotherapists.

Meanwhile, while Italy and quite a lot of the rest of the continent say they want to "rapidly share information on how it is [sic. - will be] proceeding" is there any chance that the UK will rapidly [sic. - eventually] share information on how it actually is proceeding?
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Re: Vaccine rollout in the UK

Post by sTeamTraen » Tue Dec 15, 2020 6:46 pm

shpalman wrote:
Tue Dec 15, 2020 6:41 pm
So how's it going?

Prue Leith has been vaccinated only "a week after the NHS began [the] mass immunisation campaign".

I suppose GBBO judges were in a category slightly lower than young Italian physiotherapists.
I think it's great that someone with her profile is getting the vaccine and promoting it, to counter possible anti-vaxx weirdness from other Tory/Brexiteer celebs.
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Re: Vaccine rollout in the UK

Post by bagpuss » Wed Dec 16, 2020 7:23 am

My >80 aunt and uncle both had their first jabs yesterday. I can report that as of yesterday evening they were still alive, no allergic reactions and no sign of autism. I can't report on whether Bill Gates is now able to track their whereabouts, however.

My 85 year old mum, however, isn't getting hers yet as she lives in a village which means a small GP practice which has to group with several others to administer the vaccine so it's a bigger admin task for them to organise. They didn't give her a date but looks like next year.

So it seems that having a bigger GP practice is an advantage right now if you want to get the jab quickly.

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Re: Vaccine rollout in the UK

Post by shpalman » Wed Dec 16, 2020 8:03 am

The National Audit Office has published its Investigation into preparations for potential COVID-19 vaccines.

There's pdfs of both a summary and the full report.

The Guardian notes that "Public Health England complained that they had been cut out of key decisions despite having previous experience of vaccine delivery programmes" :
The report disclosed that Public Health England raised concerns in June that “operational experience of vaccine deployment was not represented within the senior boards and groups of the Taskforce”. It was not until September 2020 that both Public Health England and NHS England and Improvement had regular senior representation, the report said.
The report says
22 The Taskforce’s decisions influence how vaccines are deployed but prior to September 2020 the organisations with the most operational experience were not always directly involved in the Taskforce’s decision-making groups. Following changes made within the Taskforce in June 2020, Public Health England raised concerns that operational experience of vaccine deployment was not always represented on the senior boards and groups of the Taskforce. Although NHSE&I has told us that it was regularly consulted and provided input to the Taskforce, it was not until September 2020 that Public Health England and NHSE&I had regular senior representation at the Programme Board (paragraph 3.14).
3.14 Plans for deployment are largely dependent on and shaped by the decisions made by the Taskforce through its workstreams, for example the types of vaccines being procured. In May 2020, Public Health England set up a COVID-19 Vaccination Programme Board as DHSC considered it to be the expert in the planning and implementation of national immunisation programmes due to its key role in other vaccination programmes. Following changes made within the Taskforce in June 2020, Public Health England raised concerns that operational experience of vaccine deployment was not represented within the senior boards and groups of the Taskforce. Although NHSE&I has told us that it was regularly consulted and provided input to the Taskforce, it was not until September 2020 that both Public Health England and NHSE&I, the organisations with the most operational experience, had regular senior representation through NHSE&I becoming a member of the Programme Board.
I'm not entirely sure I'd call this "mounting tension".

However it does bother me that
29 NHSE&I is currently planning on the assumption that up to 25 million people could be vaccinated against COVID-19 in England throughout 2021 provided sufficient doses of vaccine are available.
Only 25 million? That wouldn't even be enough for everyone over 40.
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Re: Vaccine rollout in the UK

Post by headshot » Wed Dec 16, 2020 8:35 am

My doctor’s practice was the first to administer the vaccine, which was weird to see in our small corner of the Black Country.

Re: Prue Leith, she’s 80, and a useful high profile figure to instill confidence. Seems entirely reasonable that she has been vaccinated.

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Re: Vaccine rollout in the UK

Post by bob sterman » Wed Dec 16, 2020 8:51 am

shpalman wrote:
Wed Dec 16, 2020 8:03 am
However it does bother me that
29 NHSE&I is currently planning on the assumption that up to 25 million people could be vaccinated against COVID-19 in England throughout 2021 provided sufficient doses of vaccine are available.
Only 25 million? That wouldn't even be enough for everyone over 40.
This is concerning because while it's true that the IFR in people aged 40-50 is not huge, if all the older folks and young people are restarting normal life because levels of vaccination are high in the most at risk groups - then we could see quite a few deaths in 40-50 year olds as rates of exposure increase.

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Re: Vaccine rollout in the UK

Post by Gfamily » Wed Dec 16, 2020 11:17 am

"137,897" vaccinated in UK in the first week
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-55332242
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Re: Vaccine rollout in the UK

Post by shpalman » Wed Dec 16, 2020 11:48 am

having that swing is a necessary but not sufficient condition for it meaning a thing
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Re: Vaccine rollout in the UK

Post by shpalman » Wed Dec 16, 2020 7:06 pm

bob sterman wrote:
Wed Dec 16, 2020 8:51 am
shpalman wrote:
Wed Dec 16, 2020 8:03 am
However it does bother me that
29 NHSE&I is currently planning on the assumption that up to 25 million people could be vaccinated against COVID-19 in England throughout 2021 provided sufficient doses of vaccine are available.
Only 25 million? That wouldn't even be enough for everyone over 40.
This is concerning because while it's true that the IFR in people aged 40-50 is not huge, if all the older folks and young people are restarting normal life because levels of vaccination are high in the most at risk groups - then we could see quite a few deaths in 40-50 year olds as rates of exposure increase.
25 million people vaccinated in a year would basically mean about a million vaccinations a week since everyone needs two doses.

But at the rate things are going that first batch of 800,000 won't be finished before the end of the year.
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Re: Vaccine rollout in the UK

Post by border_reiver » Wed Dec 16, 2020 7:49 pm

border_reiver wrote:
Fri Dec 11, 2020 11:23 pm
My 88 yr old mother has been given an appointment for next Friday. From the GP surgery. I think it's 'assuming we receive our expected allocation' so we'll see what actually happens.
Well she got it yesterday. Got a message on Friday to say the surgery was getting supplies earlier than expected so appointment changed to Tuesday.
She hasn't grown another head or started affecting next door's TV so all well for now. Her practice is a huge multi-surgery group so were able to get enough patients together and she said it was very efficient.
She also expressed horror at the woman BBC news spoke to who said she didn't need it because God would protect her from everything. As mum said "God wasn't protecting all those poor people who have died, was he" She's not wrong.

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Re: Vaccine rollout in the UK

Post by Sciolus » Wed Dec 16, 2020 7:52 pm

border_reiver wrote:
Wed Dec 16, 2020 7:49 pm
border_reiver wrote:
Fri Dec 11, 2020 11:23 pm
My 88 yr old mother has been given an appointment for next Friday. From the GP surgery. I think it's 'assuming we receive our expected allocation' so we'll see what actually happens.
Well she got it yesterday. Got a message on Friday to say the surgery was getting supplies earlier than expected so appointment changed to Tuesday.
She hasn't grown another head or started affecting next door's TV so all well for now. Her practice is a huge multi-surgery group so were able to get enough patients together and she said it was very efficient.
She also expressed horror at the woman BBC news spoke to who said she didn't need it because God would protect her from everything. As mum said "God wasn't protecting all those poor people who have died, was he" She's not wrong.
They were obviously godless heathens who deserved to die.

Also, insert "I sent you two lifeboats and a helicopter" joke here.

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