Vaccine ****ery

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shpalman
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Re: Vaccine ****ery

Post by shpalman » Sun Jan 16, 2022 2:30 pm

headshot wrote:
Sun Jan 16, 2022 2:19 pm
jaap wrote:
Sun Jan 16, 2022 2:09 pm
So has he been officially deported? If so, doesn't that mean he won't be able to enter Australia for several years?
Aye. And possibly many other countries, as you usually have to tell them you’ve been deported before.
His agent will fill out the form for him and "accidentally" tick the box which says he hasn't...
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Re: Vaccine ****ery

Post by lpm » Sun Jan 16, 2022 3:04 pm

What, we want prejudice against the unvaxxed to still exist in 2023? What the hell kind of world are we hoping for.
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Re: Vaccine ****ery

Post by Bird on a Fire » Sun Jan 16, 2022 3:17 pm

It's less about the vaccination, more about the sense of entitlement, assuming he's rich/important enough to blatantly lie and that the rules everyone else has been following to protect each other shouldn't apply to him.

Though personally I'm not too bothered if people start holding prejudice against selfish stupidity. This "respect your opinion even if it's obviously counter to reality" nonsense is why we have news full of f.ckwitted tweets and governments stuffed with compulsive liars.
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Re: Vaccine ****ery

Post by lpm » Sun Jan 16, 2022 3:24 pm

We gotta fight for justice for people we loathe, because that's how we get justice for people we like.

It's alarming that us lot, who don't like borders in the way Farage does, seem to be all excited by borders at the moment. While Farage is now against them. And we don't like discrimination at the doors of nightclubs, but like this discrimination. We don't want police to have powers, but want the police to investigate that lot.

What is happening? Why aren't we sticking to basic principles and going from there?
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Re: Vaccine ****ery

Post by Bird on a Fire » Sun Jan 16, 2022 3:46 pm

Context matters.

Djokovic's self-inflicted inconvenience has nothing in common with a refugee, for instance.
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Re: Vaccine ****ery

Post by lpm » Sun Jan 16, 2022 3:50 pm

WTF? It's got everything in common with refugees.
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Re: Vaccine ****ery

Post by Bird on a Fire » Sun Jan 16, 2022 4:08 pm

[quote=lpm post_id=110341 time=1642346674 user_id=66]
We gotta fight for justice for people we loathe, because that's how we get justice for people we like.[/quote]
I think historically we got justice for people we like by fighting for it deliberately. Slavery wad abolished because of slave revolts and civil war, not defending slavers. Apartheid was abolished by attacking its structures, not emphasizing justice for racists. Do you have any examples of what you're thinking about?

In any case, all that seems to have happened here is the application of justice to somebody we don't like. People with day more important reasons to enter Australia than a tennis match have been following these rules for two years. He tried to lie his way around them, so f.ck him.

[quote]
It's alarming that us lot, who don't like borders in the way Farage does, seem to be all excited by borders at the moment. While Farage is now against them. [/quote]
Biosecurity, including human pathogens, is one of the most just forms of border control I can think of. Australia would still want to keep crop pests out even if they weren't c.nts to refugees.

[quote]
And we don't like discrimination at the doors of nightclubs, but like this discrimination. [/quote]
Yes, and "discrimination" against people with weapons, "discrimination" against gropers, "discrimination" against the underage, etc. It's almost like people are generally supportive of rules for safety.

[quote]
We don't want police to have powers, but want the police to investigate [i]that lot[/i]. [/quote]
Are many people against the police investigating crimes?

For as long as they exist, they should investigate crimes committed by the powerful too.

[quote]
What is happening? Why aren't we sticking to basic principles and going from there?[/quote]
I think we are. We seem to have a different understanding of what the basic principles are.

Mine include personal freedom, but also securing people's safety, having evidence-based rules to delineate the boundary between freedom and safety, and applying those rules equally.

What are yours?


ETA no idea what's going on with the quotes here, but I'm on my phone and cba to faff with them any more
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Re: Vaccine ****ery

Post by Bird on a Fire » Sun Jan 16, 2022 4:10 pm

lpm wrote:
Sun Jan 16, 2022 3:50 pm
WTF? It's got everything in common with refugees.
How so?

He lied about his health on an application for a work visa. He's a very rich man and will be fine.
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Re: Vaccine ****ery

Post by Herainestold » Sun Jan 16, 2022 4:20 pm

shpalman wrote:
Sun Jan 16, 2022 8:38 am
Don't not be vaccinated, especially when the place you're going to requires it.
Well put.
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Re: Vaccine ****ery

Post by headshot » Sun Jan 16, 2022 4:40 pm

lpm wrote:
Sun Jan 16, 2022 3:50 pm
WTF? It's got everything in common with refugees.
I look forward to some of Australia’s refugees getting access the immigration courts with three days’ notice and on a Sunday.

But you’re just trolling for lulz…so…

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Re: Vaccine ****ery

Post by lpm » Sun Jan 16, 2022 4:41 pm

Bird on a Fire wrote:
Sun Jan 16, 2022 4:10 pm
lpm wrote:
Sun Jan 16, 2022 3:50 pm
WTF? It's got everything in common with refugees.
How so?

He lied about his health on an application for a work visa. He's a very rich man and will be fine.
Refugees often need to mislead on their forms. If they tell the truth they get kicked out. If they get caught not disclosing everything they get kicked out. Priti Patel dances for joy when she finds a refugee has misled. Are we also going to dance for joy?
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Re: Vaccine ****ery

Post by Bird on a Fire » Sun Jan 16, 2022 4:47 pm

lpm wrote:
Sun Jan 16, 2022 4:41 pm
Bird on a Fire wrote:
Sun Jan 16, 2022 4:10 pm
lpm wrote:
Sun Jan 16, 2022 3:50 pm
WTF? It's got everything in common with refugees.
How so?

He lied about his health on an application for a work visa. He's a very rich man and will be fine.
Refugees often need to mislead on their forms. If they tell the truth they get kicked out. If they get caught not disclosing everything they get kicked out. Priti Patel dances for joy when she finds a refugee has misled. Are we also going to dance for joy?
Depends. Are we talking about millionaire refugees who wanted to pop over for a few weeks, play some games, earn a few million then go home again, while undermining public health measures and messaging? Or real refugees?

I'd be in favour of Australia making an exception to its vaccine rules for refugees, fwiw, as they'll mostly be coming from places with poorer health infrastructure and need support.

I wouldn't be in favour of an exception for rich celebrities.

Surely you can see the difference between refugees and rich celebrities?
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Re: Vaccine ****ery

Post by lpm » Sun Jan 16, 2022 4:52 pm

Bird on a Fire wrote:
Sun Jan 16, 2022 4:08 pm
lpm wrote:
Sun Jan 16, 2022 3:24 pm
We gotta fight for justice for people we loathe, because that's how we get justice for people we like.
I think historically we got justice for people we like by fighting for it deliberately. Slavery wad abolished because of slave revolts and civil war, not defending slavers. Apartheid was abolished by attacking its structures, not emphasizing justice for racists. Do you have any examples of what you're thinking about?
Obviously it's things like giving a SS concentration guard and a child rapist free legal counsel, rights to a fair trial and the full protection of law. We don't like it. We instinctively hate the lawyers who try to get them off the charges. But we know it's what should be done.

Proper systems that treat immigrants as humans and give them rights to enter a country will also protect tw.ts like Djokovic. You really want a system where someone fleeing from Syria can be kicked out by Patel because their vaccination papers aren't in order?


And we don't like discrimination at the doors of nightclubs, but like this discrimination.
Yes, and "discrimination" against people with weapons, "discrimination" against gropers, "discrimination" against the underage, etc. It's almost like people are generally supportive of rules for safety.
Come on, nobody in Australia is made more safe by this.

The answer is always going to be to offer vaccines to everyone, then return to normal liberties. As you might have noticed at the moment there's a massive land grab going on where the fascist-inclined rule lovers are wanting to reverse freedoms won in the 20th Century, from voting rights to gay rights to free speech. We can't let them win.
Mine include personal freedom, but also securing people's safety, having evidence-based rules to delineate the boundary between freedom and safety, and applying those rules equally.
You don't stick to that, though. You previously insisted that personal preference and decision making over-rides safety for others. Let individuals decide, you said. You were wrong then - because vaccines didn't yet exist - but you'd be right to say it now.
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Re: Vaccine ****ery

Post by Bird on a Fire » Sun Jan 16, 2022 5:00 pm

lpm wrote:
Sun Jan 16, 2022 4:52 pm
Bird on a Fire wrote:
Sun Jan 16, 2022 4:08 pm
lpm wrote:
Sun Jan 16, 2022 3:24 pm
We gotta fight for justice for people we loathe, because that's how we get justice for people we like.
I think historically we got justice for people we like by fighting for it deliberately. Slavery wad abolished because of slave revolts and civil war, not defending slavers. Apartheid was abolished by attacking its structures, not emphasizing justice for racists. Do you have any examples of what you're thinking about?
Obviously it's things like giving a SS concentration guard and a child rapist free legal counsel, rights to a fair trial and the full protection of law. We don't like it. We instinctively hate the lawyers who try to get them off the charges. But we know it's what should be done.

Proper systems that treat immigrants as humans and give them rights to enter a country will also protect tw.ts like Djokovic. You really want a system where someone fleeing from Syria can be kicked out by Patel because their vaccination papers aren't in order?
I'm sure you noticed that Djoko had lawyers, the right to appeal and so on.

Obviously I'd expect different treatment for a refugee. I just told you that.


And we don't like discrimination at the doors of nightclubs, but like this discrimination.
Yes, and "discrimination" against people with weapons, "discrimination" against gropers, "discrimination" against the underage, etc. It's almost like people are generally supportive of rules for safety.
Come on, nobody in Australia is made more safe by this.

The answer is always going to be to offer vaccines to everyone, then return to normal liberties. As you might have noticed at the moment there's a massive land grab going on where the fascist-inclined rule lovers are wanting to reverse freedoms won in the 20th Century, from voting rights to gay rights to free speech. We can't let them win.
We certainly can't - but I'm not sure what those things have in common with vaccine rules during a pandemic.

I actually was expecting to see more governments utilise the pandemic more directly to infringe civil liberties. Instead, the UK government has barely done anything about the pandemic while cracking on with suppressing dissent and meddling with election rules anyway. Conflating the two doesn't seem that useful.
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Re: Vaccine ****ery

Post by shpalman » Sun Jan 16, 2022 8:03 pm

molto tricky

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Re: Vaccine ****ery

Post by Millennie Al » Mon Jan 17, 2022 2:20 am

Bird on a Fire wrote:
Sun Jan 16, 2022 3:17 pm
Though personally I'm not too bothered if people start holding prejudice against selfish stupidity.
Well, in that case I hope it's because you don't understand what prejudice is, because it's always wrong. Prejudice against a selfishly stupid person means that when they are involved in a situation, you don't keep an open mind and fairly investigate the circumstances, but instead make a judgement against them regardless.

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Re: Vaccine ****ery

Post by Millennie Al » Mon Jan 17, 2022 2:25 am

Bird on a Fire wrote:
Sun Jan 16, 2022 4:47 pm
I'd be in favour of Australia making an exception to its vaccine rules for refugees, fwiw, as they'll mostly be coming from places with poorer health infrastructure and need support.

I wouldn't be in favour of an exception for rich celebrities.
[/qoute]

Yes you would. You just said so in the line above. If you have an exception for one group then you have an exception for those not in that group. Fairness and justice for all cannot have any exceptions.
Surely you can see the difference between refugees and rich celebrities?
No. If a rich celebrity cannot get fair treatment, then there's no hope for the refugess.

And the principle of treating rich and poor differently is the very basis for the special privileges that the rich enjoy and discrimination against refugees. If you think there can be a system which treats poor refugees better than rich celebrities, then you're one of the biggest fools I have ever seen. It's equality or nothing.

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Re: Vaccine ****ery

Post by Bird on a Fire » Mon Jan 17, 2022 8:45 am

Well, it's easier to claim asylum if you're a refugee rather than a rich celebrity, for example.

But that's irrelevant. Djoko's treatment seems to have been entirely consistent with the rules. He only got in in the first place because he received special treatment for being a rich celebrity, which turned out to be politically untenable so the rules have, belatedly, been applied to him.

The attempt to cast him as some kind of victim is weird, but not very effective. It's like when billionaires whinge about getting pushback on their views and try to paint themselves as persecuted, rather than merely privileged people unaccustomed to facing the consequences of their own actions.
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Re: Vaccine ****ery

Post by shpalman » Mon Jan 17, 2022 12:37 pm

Novak Djokovic could be barred from playing in the French Open as things stand now after the Sports Ministry said on Monday there would be no exemption from France's new vaccine pass law.
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And yet they seem to unable to set a f.cking cookie to remember my cookie choices from last time.
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Re: Vaccine ****ery

Post by Millennie Al » Tue Jan 18, 2022 2:12 am

Bird on a Fire wrote:
Mon Jan 17, 2022 8:45 am
Well, it's easier to claim asylum if you're a refugee rather than a rich celebrity, for example.
If you're rich enough you can buy a passport from various countries that want to encourage investment. You can then live in that country or travel elsewhere. Effectively, you do not need to claim asylum because you can arrange it yourself. That's hugely easier than the process faced by poorer people.
But that's irrelevant. Djoko's treatment seems to have been entirely consistent with the rules.
Only because the rules are unacceptable. From https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2022/ ... rison-says
Hawke’s overarching argument for cancelling the visa was that Djokovic’s presence in Australia “may pose a health risk to the Australian community” because it “may foster anti-vaccination sentiment”.

The immigration minister used powers under section 133C(3) of the Migration Act to cancel Djokovic’s visa “on health and good order grounds, on the basis that it was in the public interest to do so”.
That's exactly the same sort of rule as the one allowing the Home Secretary to strip people of British citizenship - totally unacceptable rule by whim of a politician. The grounds for revoking the visa should have been either the false declaration or the dubious exemption.

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Re: Vaccine ****ery

Post by jimbob » Tue Jan 18, 2022 8:21 am

Not vaccine but vile and Ivermectin

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/202 ... dApp_Other
Four inmates at an Arkansas jail have filed a lawsuit against the facility and its doctor after they said they were unknowingly prescribed ivermectin to treat Covid-19 as a form of “medical experimentation” despite US health officials warning that the anti-parasitic drug should not be used for that purpose.

The Arkansas’ chapter of the American Civil Liberties Union filed the lawsuit on behalf of the men last week against Washington county jail, Washington county sheriff Tim Helder and jail physician Dr. Robert Karas. Last August, Helder revealed that the drug had been prescribed to patients with Covid-19.

“The lawsuit charges the defendants for administering ivermectin to incarcerated individuals without prior informed consent as to the nature, contents, or potential side effects of the drug,” the ACLU said in a statement last week.
Have you considered stupidity as an explanation

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Re: Vaccine ****ery

Post by shpalman » Tue Jan 18, 2022 10:34 am

molto tricky

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Re: Vaccine ****ery

Post by bjn » Tue Jan 18, 2022 10:42 am

shpalman wrote:
Tue Jan 18, 2022 10:34 am
antivax sovereignty FOTL fuckery
I saw that on the telly with MrsBJN. I had a minor rant, while her succinct comment was "tw.ts."

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Re: Vaccine ****ery

Post by tom p » Tue Jan 18, 2022 4:02 pm

lpm wrote:
Sun Jan 16, 2022 3:50 pm
WTF? It's got everything in common with refugees.
Just not funny.
I know you're trying to be, but sometimes you miss by miles & are just a bit sh.t.
this is one of those times

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Re: Vaccine ****ery

Post by tom p » Tue Jan 18, 2022 4:05 pm

Millennie Al wrote:
Mon Jan 17, 2022 2:20 am
Bird on a Fire wrote:
Sun Jan 16, 2022 3:17 pm
Though personally I'm not too bothered if people start holding prejudice against selfish stupidity.
Well, in that case I hope it's because you don't understand what prejudice is, because it's always wrong. Prejudice against a selfishly stupid person means that when they are involved in a situation, you don't keep an open mind and fairly investigate the circumstances, but instead make a judgement against them regardless.
In the case of djokovic, everyone knows his circumstances. It's not prejudice, it's judice, or judgement. I judge (and so, clearly, do many others) that he's a selfish, entitled, stupid prick.
Yes, he is insanely good at hitting a fuzzy yellow ball over a net. At all other things in life, he's clearly a bit sh.t and a c.nt, to boot.

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