Ioannidis sinks to a new low

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bob sterman
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Ioannidis sinks to a new low

Post by bob sterman » Mon Mar 29, 2021 9:16 am

Look at Appendix 1 in this new paper from Ioannidis (Pages 38-40)...

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/epd ... /eci.13554

How did this get published in a journal? :shock:

Just a personal attack on a junior scientist????

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bob sterman
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Re: Ioannidis sinks to a new low

Post by bob sterman » Mon Mar 29, 2021 9:37 am

Sorry - I should have been clearer...

How did this get published in a journal (that Ioannidis used to be the Editor of)? :shock:

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Woodchopper
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Re: Ioannidis sinks to a new low

Post by Woodchopper » Mon Mar 29, 2021 11:31 am

David Gorski on What the heck happened to John Ioannidis?
https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/what-t ... ioannidis/

Concludes

Maybe the problem with Prof. Ioannidis was there all along, and I just didn’t see it until the pandemic amplified it for all to see. He seems, dating back at least to 2012, have had the belief that conventional science is too “safe” and “conformist,” perhaps with a bit of a self-image of himself as being the “brave maverick doctor” or iconoclast. Maybe that’s why, during the pandemic, he was so easily drawn to being a “rebel” or a “contrarian,” whose findings bucked the existing consensus, and maybe that’s why he can’t give that up. After all, it’s happened to greater scientists than he. Moreover, Prof. Ioannidis seems to be an excellent cautionary tale at how being a critic doesn’t necessarily mean that you can do what’s being criticized that well. He’s very good at finding the flaws in studies, but his studies during the pandemic demonstrate that, when designing studies of his own, he’s prone to every bias and flaw that he criticizes in others.

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Woodchopper
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Re: Ioannidis sinks to a new low

Post by Woodchopper » Mon Mar 29, 2021 11:46 am

His paper also concludes:
Overall average IFR may be ~0.3-0.4% in Europe and the Americas (~0.2% among community-dwelling non-institutionalized people)
So far there have been 148 125 UK deaths with Covid on the death certificate and the population is 66.8 million. About 0.22% of the Uk population has already died. Ioannidis' estimate would only make sense if almost everyone had been infected already. Which they haven't.

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Re: Ioannidis sinks to a new low

Post by Squeak » Mon Mar 29, 2021 12:39 pm

bob sterman wrote:
Mon Mar 29, 2021 9:16 am
Look at Appendix 1 in this new paper from Ioannidis (Pages 38-40)...

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/epd ... /eci.13554

How did this get published in a journal? :shock:

Just a personal attack on a junior scientist????
Holy f.ck. That is unbelievably appalling. How dare a twitter-using PhD student write a meta-analysis?!

Having not read the rest of the paper yet, does he anywhere explain what is actually wrong with this meta-analysis or is it simply that it was written by two students and came to conclusions that Ioannidis didn't like?

Not only should that have never got near print, just submitting that to a journal should be a sackable offence. It's got nothing to do with science and is merely very public bullying.

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Re: Ioannidis sinks to a new low

Post by jimbob » Mon Mar 29, 2021 4:58 pm

Woodchopper wrote:
Mon Mar 29, 2021 11:46 am
His paper also concludes:
Overall average IFR may be ~0.3-0.4% in Europe and the Americas (~0.2% among community-dwelling non-institutionalized people)
So far there have been 148 125 UK deaths with Covid on the death certificate and the population is 66.8 million. About 0.22% of the Uk population has already died. Ioannidis' estimate would only make sense if almost everyone had been infected already. Which they haven't.
Michael Levitt tweeted this paper (uncritically) and as he follows me, I was looking for the list of regions where the PFR is significantly higher than the claimed average IFR... I thought there was a link from this subforum, but can't find it.


But, yes, it makes absolutely no sense at all.
Have you considered stupidity as an explanation

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jimbob
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Re: Ioannidis sinks to a new low

Post by jimbob » Mon Mar 29, 2021 5:01 pm

Woodchopper wrote:
Mon Mar 29, 2021 11:46 am
His paper also concludes:
Overall average IFR may be ~0.3-0.4% in Europe and the Americas (~0.2% among community-dwelling non-institutionalized people)
So far there have been 148 125 UK deaths with Covid on the death certificate and the population is 66.8 million. About 0.22% of the Uk population has already died. Ioannidis' estimate would only make sense if almost everyone had been infected already. Which they haven't.
And that's almost certainly about 12,000 too low - due to the undercounting for the first five weeks of the first wave at over 2000 per week.
Have you considered stupidity as an explanation

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Re: Ioannidis sinks to a new low

Post by Fishnut » Mon Mar 29, 2021 5:29 pm

There's a good thread here from one of the targets of his abuse. The first part of the thread focuses on the criticisms of the meta-review but the second part is, I think, the more important one as it highlights the total disdain Ioannidis has for less senior academics, and the broader impact this has.
it's okay to say "I don't know"

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Re: Ioannidis sinks to a new low

Post by sTeamTraen » Mon Mar 29, 2021 11:42 pm

I talked to Ioannidis briefly at a conference once. I discovered that he wears white suits.
Something something hammer something something nail

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bob sterman
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Re: Ioannidis sinks to a new low

Post by bob sterman » Tue Mar 30, 2021 6:45 am

sTeamTraen wrote:
Mon Mar 29, 2021 11:42 pm
I talked to Ioannidis briefly at a conference once. I discovered that he wears white suits.
Supposedly...

"A man in white is often searching for something: dirt, or life, or love, money or blood, fame or notoriety. A white suit attracts what you don’t have or what you want more of."

The enduring mystique of the white suit
https://slate.com/culture/2005/05/the-e ... -suit.html

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Re: Ioannidis sinks to a new low

Post by Little waster » Sat Apr 03, 2021 1:43 am

bob sterman wrote:
Tue Mar 30, 2021 6:45 am
sTeamTraen wrote:
Mon Mar 29, 2021 11:42 pm
I talked to Ioannidis briefly at a conference once. I discovered that he wears white suits.
Supposedly...

"A man in white is often searching for something: dirt, or life, or love, money or blood, fame or notoriety. A white suit attracts what you don’t have or what you want more of."

The enduring mystique of the white suit
https://slate.com/culture/2005/05/the-e ... -suit.html
Or possibly tinned fruit ;)
It's meta, so it is allowed.

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