Vaccine passports

Discussions about serious topics, for serious people
Post Reply
User avatar
shpalman
Princess POW
Posts: 8244
Joined: Mon Nov 11, 2019 12:53 pm
Location: One step beyond
Contact:

Re: Vaccine passports

Post by shpalman » Fri Oct 22, 2021 11:15 am

sheldrake wrote:
Fri Oct 22, 2021 11:06 am
headshot wrote:
Fri Oct 22, 2021 10:40 am
Go on then. How would you increase uptake of a perfectly safe vaccine? If people are too stubborn to get it voluntarily, why not mandate it in certain settings?
I would say that there's some evidence that mandates actually increase hesitancy.
I saw that survey from England I think. But if someone was already hesitant enough to not get it when offered during the tail end of the winter wave or the minor summer wave, making them more hesitant only means that they still don't get it, while a few people are obviously getting it now just because they have to even if they don't want to.

Or in other words I don't know who was about to get it but decided well now I am not doing it because of the mandate.
having that swing is a necessary but not sufficient condition for it meaning a thing
@shpalman@mastodon.me.uk

User avatar
Brightonian
Dorkwood
Posts: 1429
Joined: Mon Nov 11, 2019 3:16 pm
Location: Usually UK, often France and Ireland

Re: Vaccine passports

Post by Brightonian » Fri Oct 22, 2021 11:19 am

What are people's experiences with bars etc. checking vaccination status? I'm in Ireland now and at the one pub that my father and I have visited, they didn't check ours. But maybe that's because they know us and somehow think that's okay.

I was in France recently and in a rural village they only checked my pass sanitaire about one time in ten. In Paris on the other hand they checked about 80% of the time.

User avatar
shpalman
Princess POW
Posts: 8244
Joined: Mon Nov 11, 2019 12:53 pm
Location: One step beyond
Contact:

Re: Vaccine passports

Post by shpalman » Fri Oct 22, 2021 11:28 am

Was checked on Saturday morning at the bar at Bovisa station because we said we wanted to sit down. We weren't checked on Sunday morning because the lady remembered us.

We were checked every evening on entry to the Spirit di Milan for the dance evening but only on Saturday during the day for the entry to the dance camp.

I also get checked every week when I go for dance lessons but not when I'm giving lessons (but all the people coming for lessons get checked).
having that swing is a necessary but not sufficient condition for it meaning a thing
@shpalman@mastodon.me.uk

Chris Preston
Snowbonk
Posts: 529
Joined: Tue Nov 12, 2019 8:05 am

Re: Vaccine passports

Post by Chris Preston » Fri Oct 22, 2021 11:37 am

sheldrake wrote:
Fri Oct 22, 2021 11:14 am
Chris Preston wrote:
Fri Oct 22, 2021 11:12 am


These are both classic anti-vaccine talking points.
I've Pfizer vaccinated, if it helps you see that I'm not making these points out of some superstitious distrust of vaccines. I do actually think it's reasonable to object to being pressured to take a medication the manufacturer refuses to accept liability for.
Well if you have been duped by the anti-vaxxers into believing their nonsense, it shows a lack of research on your part.

Vaccine manufacturers are not protected from liability in the UK. If there is a defect in the vaccine, you can sue under consumer law. If the vaccine causes a known problem, you don't even need to sue, you will get an ex gratia vaccine damage payment.

It is in the US where the rules are fundamently different, but that is a consequence of the US legal system where juries are involved in some civil trials and deciding damages. Even in the US the manufacturers are not able to avoid liability for damages as they can be sued for vaccine defects.
Here grows much rhubarb.

User avatar
lpm
Junior Mod
Posts: 5944
Joined: Mon Nov 11, 2019 1:05 pm

Re: Vaccine passports

Post by lpm » Fri Oct 22, 2021 11:59 am

headshot wrote:
Fri Oct 22, 2021 10:40 am
sheldrake wrote:
Fri Oct 22, 2021 10:02 am
That is a pretty Kafkaesque argument, shpalman. eta; the other restrictions could be dropped too. It's a political choice.
Go on then. How would you increase uptake of a perfectly safe vaccine? If people are too stubborn to get it voluntarily, why not mandate it in certain settings?

It gets to a point where a person’s choice not to get the vaccine is damaging to so many other parts of society that a mandate is perfectly acceptable.
Vaccine A gives 100% protection against infection and subsequent transmission.

Vaccine B gives 0% protection against infection and subsequent transmission.

Obviously refusing B doesn't lead to other people getting ill. But refusing A would be ethically dubious.

The Covid vaccines are around 60%? I'm not convinced it's enough. Others refusing the vaccine doesn't damage me enough to make forcing them valid.
⭐ Awarded gold star 4 November 2021

Lydia Gwilt
Stargoon
Posts: 140
Joined: Mon Nov 11, 2019 2:05 pm

Re: Vaccine passports

Post by Lydia Gwilt » Fri Oct 22, 2021 12:27 pm

Brightonian wrote:
Fri Oct 22, 2021 11:19 am
What are people's experiences with bars etc. checking vaccination status?
In Italy, in my small village pizzeria they don't check, but in the local town/city people have to show a green pass in bars etc, but no backup ID to show it's their green pass. In Vancouver both pass and ID are scrutinised closely. In Cape Town, temperatures but not passes are checked.

sheldrake
After Pie
Posts: 1819
Joined: Fri Dec 20, 2019 2:48 am

Re: Vaccine passports

Post by sheldrake » Fri Oct 22, 2021 2:01 pm

Chris Preston wrote:
Fri Oct 22, 2021 11:37 am
Well if you have been duped by the anti-vaxxers into believing their nonsense, it shows a lack of research on your part.
Using labels like 'anti-vaxxer' is really not helpful to good debate. It puts people in 'teams' and shuts down proper discussion. Please try and avoid it. You should also generally try and make your points without an insulting flourish.
Vaccine manufacturers are not protected from liability in the UK. If there is a defect in the vaccine, you can sue under consumer law. If the vaccine causes a known problem, you don't even need to sue, you will get an ex gratia vaccine damage payment.
This is not the case for vaccines pushed out for emergency use in the UK. In particular, it is not the case for some of the Covid vaccines we've been discussing.

https://fullfact.org/health/unlicensed- ... liability/
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-astr ... SKCN24V2EN

The above dates from last year, so here's the current status on Astrazeneca's vaccine, as an example. It is still operating on a temporary approval

https://www.gov.uk/government/publicati ... strazeneca

The following is commentary from Peter Todd, a consultant with the British law firm Scott Moncrieff, speaking in April this year.
Taken from: https://fortune.com/2021/04/07/covid-va ... liability/
COVID is massively more dangerous than the pandemic in 2009 was, but there was the same need for a vaccine, urgently…and indemnity has been given to all the manufacturers," says Todd.

In the U.K., a manufacturer's immunity is theoretically whipped away if their vaccine is shown to be "defective," meaning it isn't as safe as people should reasonably expect. But, Todd says, it "would be difficult to prove a reasonable expectation of consumer safety" when most people know COVID-19 vaccines have been rushed out before their large-scale, long-term testing can be completed, to urgently fight an extremely dangerous disease.

That leaves the statutory scheme, which pays out a fixed sum of £120,000 to those suffering severe disablement—not a lot of money in such circumstances, and legal costs are also not reimbursed.

User avatar
Woodchopper
Princess POW
Posts: 7057
Joined: Sat Oct 12, 2019 9:05 am

Re: Vaccine passports

Post by Woodchopper » Fri Oct 22, 2021 2:51 pm

sheldrake wrote:
Fri Oct 22, 2021 2:01 pm
Chris Preston wrote:
Fri Oct 22, 2021 11:37 am
Well if you have been duped by the anti-vaxxers into believing their nonsense, it shows a lack of research on your part.
Using labels like 'anti-vaxxer' is really not helpful to good debate. It puts people in 'teams' and shuts down proper discussion. Please try and avoid it. You should also generally try and make your points without an insulting flourish.
Vaccine manufacturers are not protected from liability in the UK. If there is a defect in the vaccine, you can sue under consumer law. If the vaccine causes a known problem, you don't even need to sue, you will get an ex gratia vaccine damage payment.
This is not the case for vaccines pushed out for emergency use in the UK. In particular, it is not the case for some of the Covid vaccines we've been discussing.

https://fullfact.org/health/unlicensed- ... liability/
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-astr ... SKCN24V2EN

The above dates from last year, so here's the current status on Astrazeneca's vaccine, as an example. It is still operating on a temporary approval

https://www.gov.uk/government/publicati ... strazeneca

The following is commentary from Peter Todd, a consultant with the British law firm Scott Moncrieff, speaking in April this year.
Taken from: https://fortune.com/2021/04/07/covid-va ... liability/
COVID is massively more dangerous than the pandemic in 2009 was, but there was the same need for a vaccine, urgently…and indemnity has been given to all the manufacturers," says Todd.

In the U.K., a manufacturer's immunity is theoretically whipped away if their vaccine is shown to be "defective," meaning it isn't as safe as people should reasonably expect. But, Todd says, it "would be difficult to prove a reasonable expectation of consumer safety" when most people know COVID-19 vaccines have been rushed out before their large-scale, long-term testing can be completed, to urgently fight an extremely dangerous disease.

That leaves the statutory scheme, which pays out a fixed sum of £120,000 to those suffering severe disablement—not a lot of money in such circumstances, and legal costs are also not reimbursed.

I didn't know that. Thanks

Millennie Al
After Pie
Posts: 1621
Joined: Mon Mar 16, 2020 4:02 am

Re: Vaccine passports

Post by Millennie Al » Sat Oct 23, 2021 12:27 am

Chris Preston wrote:
Fri Oct 22, 2021 11:37 am
It is in the US where the rules are fundamently different, but that is a consequence of the US legal system where juries are involved in some civil trials and deciding damages. Even in the US the manufacturers are not able to avoid liability for damages as they can be sued for vaccine defects.
The US has the National Vaccine Injury Compensation Program which is a mandatory alternative to claiming against vaccine makers. This was introduced in 1986 after several claims were made against vaccine manufacturers resulting in them deciding to stop making vaccines. Many of the claims were bogus, but the US legal system allows a jury to award damages merely because they feel it's a good idea rather than the plaintiff having actually proved their case. Also, the fact that winners don't routinely get their costs awarded means that there is a rick of frivolous lawsuits. Since the NVICP has been in operation vaccine manufacturers can safely operate without risk of crippling lawsuits, while genuine victims still get paid. Bogus claims, such as claims that vaccines cause autism, get dismissed.

User avatar
Bird on a Fire
Princess POW
Posts: 10137
Joined: Fri Oct 11, 2019 5:05 pm
Location: Portugal

Re: Vaccine passports

Post by Bird on a Fire » Sat Oct 23, 2021 12:30 am

Lydia Gwilt wrote:
Fri Oct 22, 2021 12:27 pm
Brightonian wrote:
Fri Oct 22, 2021 11:19 am
What are people's experiences with bars etc. checking vaccination status?
In Italy, in my small village pizzeria they don't check, but in the local town/city people have to show a green pass in bars etc, but no backup ID to show it's their green pass. In Vancouver both pass and ID are scrutinised closely. In Cape Town, temperatures but not passes are checked.
I've not been checked yet in Portugal, but I haven't yet tried to do any of the things I'd need a pass for (shows and sports events, bars and discos, old people's homes and vulnerable people in hospital). Back when we needed them to sit indoors in cafes etc at peak times I never got checked either.

N=1 but I'm really regretting taking that vaccine. It's nowhere near mandatory enough. I want the smug glow of a masked employee on minimum wage scanning my QR code, even if they don't upload the result to a government tracking database like the conspiracy theorists believe.

It's easily one of the most disappointing results from accepting an injection a stranger told me would improve my weekend.
We have the right to a clean, healthy, sustainable environment.

Herainestold
After Pie
Posts: 2029
Joined: Mon Nov 25, 2019 1:23 pm

Re: Vaccine passports

Post by Herainestold » Sat Oct 23, 2021 2:33 am

Bird on a Fire wrote:
Sat Oct 23, 2021 12:30 am
Lydia Gwilt wrote:
Fri Oct 22, 2021 12:27 pm
Brightonian wrote:
Fri Oct 22, 2021 11:19 am
What are people's experiences with bars etc. checking vaccination status?
In Italy, in my small village pizzeria they don't check, but in the local town/city people have to show a green pass in bars etc, but no backup ID to show it's their green pass. In Vancouver both pass and ID are scrutinised closely. In Cape Town, temperatures but not passes are checked.
I've not been checked yet in Portugal, but I haven't yet tried to do any of the things I'd need a pass for (shows and sports events, bars and discos, old people's homes and vulnerable people in hospital). Back when we needed them to sit indoors in cafes etc at peak times I never got checked either.

N=1 but I'm really regretting taking that vaccine. It's nowhere near mandatory enough. I want the smug glow of a masked employee on minimum wage scanning my QR code, even if they don't upload the result to a government tracking database like the conspiracy theorists believe.

It's easily one of the most disappointing results from accepting an injection a stranger told me would improve my weekend.
The value of vaccine passports lies in getting the unvaxed to vax, not in absolutely reducing transmission because vaccines are mediocre at best for that. You need some enforcement at the outset to get people to vaccinate, but after that its usefulness diminishes.
If you really want to implement it properly, you need some kind of facial recognition software, centrally linked so if your face isnt linked to a vaccination record you are denied service. The technology is out there, and not that difficult to implement, we just have to decide to do it.
Masking forever
Putin is a monster.
Russian socialism will rise again

Chris Preston
Snowbonk
Posts: 529
Joined: Tue Nov 12, 2019 8:05 am

Re: Vaccine passports

Post by Chris Preston » Sat Oct 23, 2021 4:39 am

Woodchopper wrote:
Fri Oct 22, 2021 2:51 pm

I didn't know that. Thanks
The rules are the same as for all other approved vaccines in the UK.
Here grows much rhubarb.

User avatar
headshot
Dorkwood
Posts: 1414
Joined: Tue Nov 12, 2019 9:40 am

Re: Vaccine passports

Post by headshot » Sat Oct 23, 2021 9:41 am

lpm wrote:
Fri Oct 22, 2021 11:59 am
headshot wrote:
Fri Oct 22, 2021 10:40 am
sheldrake wrote:
Fri Oct 22, 2021 10:02 am
That is a pretty Kafkaesque argument, shpalman. eta; the other restrictions could be dropped too. It's a political choice.
Go on then. How would you increase uptake of a perfectly safe vaccine? If people are too stubborn to get it voluntarily, why not mandate it in certain settings?

It gets to a point where a person’s choice not to get the vaccine is damaging to so many other parts of society that a mandate is perfectly acceptable.
Vaccine A gives 100% protection against infection and subsequent transmission.

Vaccine B gives 0% protection against infection and subsequent transmission.

Obviously refusing B doesn't lead to other people getting ill. But refusing A would be ethically dubious.

The Covid vaccines are around 60%? I'm not convinced it's enough. Others refusing the vaccine doesn't damage me enough to make forcing them valid.
If we have to have another lockdown that could have been avoided through adequate vaccination, there will be more than just health outcomes affecting people. The damage to business would be terminal in many situations.

I’m lucky because I run and outdoor business that is active only in the summer months. If I was a theatre that made the vast majority of its annual income from a panto, I’d be very, very worried right now.

User avatar
lpm
Junior Mod
Posts: 5944
Joined: Mon Nov 11, 2019 1:05 pm

Re: Vaccine passports

Post by lpm » Sat Oct 23, 2021 10:03 am

There's not going to be another lockdown.

Cases are oscillating. The NHS is coping. The death toll is accepted. Vaxxed-Covid is not a particularly big killer.

Which is why I don't understand any of the arguments for passports.
⭐ Awarded gold star 4 November 2021

Lew Dolby
Catbabel
Posts: 652
Joined: Mon Nov 11, 2019 12:59 pm
Location: Shropshire - Welsh Borders

Re: Vaccine passports

Post by Lew Dolby » Sat Oct 23, 2021 1:33 pm

lpm wrote:
Sat Oct 23, 2021 10:03 am
The NHS is coping.
As far as I can see, the NHS shut down 18 months ago. All it's done since is deal with covid and repeat prescriptions. I know several people round here (Shropshire) in need to new knees or hips and none of that has gone on. Another friend living with breast cancer had her treatment halved in early 2020 and it's still not gone back to what she needs.
WOULD CUSTOMERS PLEASE REFRAIN FROM SITTING ON THE COUNTER BY THE BACON SLICER - AS WE'RE GETTING A LITTLE BEHIND IN OUR ORDERS.

User avatar
headshot
Dorkwood
Posts: 1414
Joined: Tue Nov 12, 2019 9:40 am

Re: Vaccine passports

Post by headshot » Sat Oct 23, 2021 1:43 pm

Lew Dolby wrote:
Sat Oct 23, 2021 1:33 pm
lpm wrote:
Sat Oct 23, 2021 10:03 am
The NHS is coping.
As far as I can see, the NHS shut down 18 months ago. All it's done since is deal with covid and repeat prescriptions. I know several people round here (Shropshire) in need to new knees or hips and none of that has gone on. Another friend living with breast cancer had her treatment halved in early 2020 and it's still not gone back to what she needs.
Yeah. The NHS isn’t coping…at all. I’d post links to relevant reports on this, but it’s LPM, so I’m sure they can do it themselves.

User avatar
lpm
Junior Mod
Posts: 5944
Joined: Mon Nov 11, 2019 1:05 pm

Re: Vaccine passports

Post by lpm » Sat Oct 23, 2021 1:57 pm

Have we got a different definition of the word coping?
⭐ Awarded gold star 4 November 2021

Lew Dolby
Catbabel
Posts: 652
Joined: Mon Nov 11, 2019 12:59 pm
Location: Shropshire - Welsh Borders

Re: Vaccine passports

Post by Lew Dolby » Sat Oct 23, 2021 2:04 pm

Obviously. You seem to think not doing most of the things it used to do (and patients need) is coping. I don't count that as coping.
WOULD CUSTOMERS PLEASE REFRAIN FROM SITTING ON THE COUNTER BY THE BACON SLICER - AS WE'RE GETTING A LITTLE BEHIND IN OUR ORDERS.

User avatar
jdc
Hilda Ogden
Posts: 1925
Joined: Wed Sep 25, 2019 4:31 pm
Location: Your Mum

Re: Vaccine passports

Post by jdc » Sat Oct 23, 2021 2:33 pm

Chris Preston wrote:
Fri Oct 22, 2021 11:37 am

Vaccine manufacturers are not protected from liability in the UK. If there is a defect in the vaccine, you can sue under consumer law. If the vaccine causes a known problem, you don't even need to sue, you will get an ex gratia vaccine damage payment.
This piece in the Conversation acknowledges the consumer law protections but claims that in practice it would be difficult to succeed in a claim: https://theconversation.com/uk-citizens ... nce-151455
Perception counts

The wording of the government’s new regulations may also have slipped in some immunity for the government and the agencies rolling out mass-vaccination programmes, although this might not have been the intention. At this critical moment, however, perception is every bit as important as intention.

Consumer protection rights still apply for people injured by the COVID-19 vaccine as the government wasn’t allowed to take away those. But due to the legal definition of defects and a rule known as the state-of-the-art defence, it is difficult to get compensation when we know some people might react badly, but specific problems with the vaccine are not yet known.
Also mentions the £120k disability payment scheme (complaining of lack of generosity) and later has this rather optimistic view of the effect a better scheme could have:
Generally, vaccine safety is excellent, which makes it even more incongruous that the government is not putting its money where its mouth is and providing a clear, generous and uncomplicated compensation scheme that would immediately quash any concerns the public has.
I think it might help a bit maybe, but "immediately quash any concerns" is a bit strong imo.

User avatar
jdc
Hilda Ogden
Posts: 1925
Joined: Wed Sep 25, 2019 4:31 pm
Location: Your Mum

Re: Vaccine passports

Post by jdc » Sat Oct 23, 2021 2:38 pm

btw it also reckons that the govt could have provided indemnity rather than immunity, taking on the risk rather than eliminating it.

User avatar
lpm
Junior Mod
Posts: 5944
Joined: Mon Nov 11, 2019 1:05 pm

Re: Vaccine passports

Post by lpm » Sat Oct 23, 2021 3:29 pm

Lew Dolby wrote:
Sat Oct 23, 2021 2:04 pm
Obviously. You seem to think not doing most of the things it used to do (and patients need) is coping. I don't count that as coping.
Coping is what a single mum with two children does. Struggling through. Doing most of the things she used to do is off the table, life will never be the same again.
⭐ Awarded gold star 4 November 2021

User avatar
headshot
Dorkwood
Posts: 1414
Joined: Tue Nov 12, 2019 9:40 am

Re: Vaccine passports

Post by headshot » Sat Oct 23, 2021 3:46 pm

To ‘cope’ means successfully tackling a problem.

If something or someone is coping with something in a way that isn’t successful or as good as they could expect, it needs a modifier. Eg: ‘struggling to’ or ‘attempting to’.

The NHS, or at the very least, parts of it, are very much not coping adequately with the pressures added by having to deal with Covid and Flu, health leaders are sounding alarm bells because they’re concerned that the struggle to cope will tip into an inability to cope.

User avatar
shpalman
Princess POW
Posts: 8244
Joined: Mon Nov 11, 2019 12:53 pm
Location: One step beyond
Contact:

Re: Vaccine passports

Post by shpalman » Sat Oct 23, 2021 8:27 pm

having that swing is a necessary but not sufficient condition for it meaning a thing
@shpalman@mastodon.me.uk

sheldrake
After Pie
Posts: 1819
Joined: Fri Dec 20, 2019 2:48 am

Re: Vaccine passports

Post by sheldrake » Sat Oct 23, 2021 10:16 pm

headshot wrote:
Sat Oct 23, 2021 3:46 pm


The NHS, or at the very least, parts of it, are very much not coping adequately with the pressures added by having to deal with Covid and Flu, health leaders are sounding alarm bells because they’re concerned that the struggle to cope will tip into an inability to cope.
Have you entertained the possibility that reports of the NHS struggling are because of supply and staff absence issues rather than massive numbers of additional people requiring treatment (referencing our mortality level which jumped up to.. 2009 norms at the peak).

User avatar
Gfamily
Light of Blast
Posts: 5180
Joined: Mon Nov 11, 2019 1:00 pm
Location: NW England

Re: Vaccine passports

Post by Gfamily » Sat Oct 23, 2021 10:53 pm

sheldrake wrote:
Sat Oct 23, 2021 10:16 pm
headshot wrote:
Sat Oct 23, 2021 3:46 pm


The NHS, or at the very least, parts of it, are very much not coping adequately with the pressures added by having to deal with Covid and Flu, health leaders are sounding alarm bells because they’re concerned that the struggle to cope will tip into an inability to cope.
Have you entertained the possibility that reports of the NHS struggling are because of supply and staff absence issues rather than massive numbers of additional people requiring treatment (referencing our mortality level which jumped up to.. 2009 norms at the peak).
Oh f.ck off. In 2009 we had, what? 40,000 more beds in hospitals and 10% less population - and until 2020 we didn't have a pandemic.
My avatar was a scientific result that was later found to be 'mistaken' - I rarely claim to be 100% correct
ETA 5/8/20: I've been advised that the result was correct, it was the initial interpretation that needed to be withdrawn
Meta? I'd say so!

Post Reply