Vaccine passports

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Woodchopper
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Re: Vaccine passports

Post by Woodchopper » Fri Jul 23, 2021 7:29 pm

sTeamTraen wrote:
Thu Jul 22, 2021 10:45 am
Woodchopper wrote:
Wed Jul 21, 2021 9:51 am
I think we all have to get used to different travel restrictions for vaccinated and unvaccinated people. Entering a state isn’t a right and border control does seem to be an effective way to slow down the spread of new variants.
We-e-e-e-lll, entering EU state B coming from EU state A if you hold an EU passport pretty much is a right. This has come close to causing problems on a few occasions in the past 16 monthsé
I think that we’re going to have to get used to international travel within the EEA being much more uncertain than it was before March 2020. If there is an outbreak of Tau variant in Poland in December 2026 then Poles will find that they can’t enter other EU member states. It’ll make previously popular things like cross-border commuting much more risky.

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Re: Vaccine passports

Post by shpalman » Sat Jul 24, 2021 9:38 am

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I'm noticing on our internal mail chat that there are quite a few professors who can't get their Green Passes, maybe because they were vaccinated on the 2nd of June which was a holiday, or some other reason. So it's one of those things which is automatic but when it doesn't work it's nearly impossible to sort out yourself. The numbers to call tend to be very busy but people are getting through after ~30 minutes and getting support tickets opened.

But then I checked that I could get my Green Pass a month ago as soon as it came into existence, not now when it turns out we might actually need it.
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Re: Vaccine passports

Post by sTeamTraen » Sat Jul 24, 2021 11:48 am

WFJ wrote:
Thu Jul 22, 2021 12:18 pm
For recovered people here (in German) it says that recovered people can receive a certificate between 28 days and 6 months after a positive test (it seems a negative test is not actually required you are just classed as recovered after 28 days) and after 6 months you are no longer considered recovered, but will have fully vaccinated status with a single vaccine dose.
For Spain it's 11 (!) days since your positive PCR test, and again, no negative test. This strikes me as bonkers somewhat counterintuitive.
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Re: Vaccine passports

Post by shpalman » Sun Jul 25, 2021 5:07 pm

I've also downloaded the Italian health ministry's app which allows me to verify the QR code on a Green Pass. I tried it on mine (the printed PDF version), and on the second attempt it told me it was valid and showed my name and date of birth.
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Re: Vaccine passports

Post by shpalman » Mon Jul 26, 2021 12:05 pm

Angela Rayner wrote:We think it is unworkable actually and we should be encouraging people to get the vaccine as soon as they possibly can, and also encouraging people to take regular tests as well. Because that is how we keep control of the virus. Of course, even with the two vaccines you can still get Covid, so therefore testing has got to be an important part of that scheme.
So what do you actually want? Or just to complain about what the government is doing?
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Re: Vaccine passports

Post by shpalman » Tue Aug 31, 2021 9:31 pm

Well now I am not doing it
Screenshot_20210831-232606_crop_93_compress27.jpg
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How about we make people apply for intensive care unit passports.
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Re: Vaccine passports

Post by OffTheRock » Tue Aug 31, 2021 10:42 pm

The whole thing is odd, right?

Who, having decided that they are definitely getting vaccinated, then answers a question about change in inclination with vaccine passports with 'introducing vaccine passports will make me more likely to get one'. Surely the only correct answers there are no change or some degree of less likely. Although I'm not sure which is weirder - somewhat more likely or much more likely.

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Re: Vaccine passports

Post by Woodchopper » Wed Sep 01, 2021 8:09 am

OffTheRock wrote:
Tue Aug 31, 2021 10:42 pm
The whole thing is odd, right?

Who, having decided that they are definitely getting vaccinated, then answers a question about change in inclination with vaccine passports with 'introducing vaccine passports will make me more likely to get one'. Surely the only correct answers there are no change or some degree of less likely. Although I'm not sure which is weirder - somewhat more likely or much more likely.
I haven't had time to read the paper, but is that what is says? Seems more plausible to me that people who were unsure and leaning toward vaccination were dissuaded by passports. If that's the case it would accord with other research suggesting that altruism and protecting loved ones is an important source of motivation, whereas people resent being told they have to do something.

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Re: Vaccine passports

Post by shpalman » Wed Sep 01, 2021 10:58 am

... meanwhile, as of today in Italy a Green Pass will be necessary to take long-distance rail, coach, or domestic air transport for example.

So the usual morons have been threatening to block the railway stations in the name of their freedom by limiting everyone else's.

Not clear if they actually did it, watching the national news now and it seems the stations were calm and the people interviewed have been happy to be vaccinated and not to have a problem showing the pass. One guy said he was more worried about the protests than anything; either they didn't happen, the police dealt with them quickly, or the news is just ignoring the few shouty losers who showed up.

ETA ah ok the large quantity of police sent to deal with them kept them outside. Note that there has recently been violence at protests and death threats against journalists so they aren't taking any more sh.t from these c.nts.
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Re: Vaccine passports

Post by shpalman » Wed Sep 01, 2021 1:41 pm

The no-Green-Pass protest in Como "for a return to normality"* will be on Saturday afternoon when it's more convenient for everybody.

* - lol
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Re: Vaccine passports

Post by shpalman » Wed Sep 01, 2021 1:46 pm

shpalman wrote:
Tue Aug 31, 2021 9:31 pm
Well now I am not doing it
Younger age groups, black British ethnicities (compared with white people) and non-English speakers were more likely to express a lower inclination to get vaccinated if passports were introduced. While these groups comprise a relatively small proportion of the UK population, they cluster geographically and tend to be less inclined to get vaccinated in the first place.

Evidence that imposing vaccine passports could have the reverse behavioural effect from that intended by ministers will strengthen the hand of Tory backbenchers determined to see off the plan if it comes to a vote in the House of Commons.
Somehow I don't think that the Tory backbenchers are doing this because they support the "Younger age groups, black British ethnicities (compared with white people) and non-English speakers".
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Re: Vaccine passports

Post by shpalman » Wed Sep 01, 2021 3:20 pm

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Re: Vaccine passports

Post by science_fox » Wed Sep 01, 2021 3:33 pm

shpalman wrote:
Wed Sep 01, 2021 3:20 pm
The Scottish parliament is to vote on the introduction of vaccine certificates for entry into nightclubs and large indoor and outdoor events next week

Opening nightclubs and then trying to introduce a green pass system was the wrong way around.
I've just been to two festivals, the frist required certificate of double vacc, eg the NHS Pass - easy to get once you'd been vaccinated, arrived by post a couple of days after request - or else a witin 48hr registered neg lfd cert which seemed like a faff. Without either they didn't let you in. The 2nd just asked people to be sensible and test. I came back from the 2nd with positive test :-( (feel fine). The first felt safer, I was happier, docs easy to obtain, and no hassle. The 2nd option is 10 days isolating and less optimal.
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Re: Vaccine passports

Post by headshot » Wed Sep 01, 2021 4:59 pm

science_fox wrote:
Wed Sep 01, 2021 3:33 pm
shpalman wrote:
Wed Sep 01, 2021 3:20 pm
The Scottish parliament is to vote on the introduction of vaccine certificates for entry into nightclubs and large indoor and outdoor events next week

Opening nightclubs and then trying to introduce a green pass system was the wrong way around.
I've just been to two festivals, the frist required certificate of double vacc, eg the NHS Pass - easy to get once you'd been vaccinated, arrived by post a couple of days after request - or else a witin 48hr registered neg lfd cert which seemed like a faff. Without either they didn't let you in. The 2nd just asked people to be sensible and test. I came back from the 2nd with positive test :-( (feel fine). The first felt safer, I was happier, docs easy to obtain, and no hassle. The 2nd option is 10 days isolating and less optimal.
Out of interest, which festivals?

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Re: Vaccine passports

Post by shpalman » Wed Sep 01, 2021 5:08 pm

shpalman wrote:
Wed Sep 01, 2021 10:58 am
... meanwhile, as of today in Italy a Green Pass will be necessary to take long-distance rail, coach, or domestic air transport for example.

So the usual morons have been threatening to block the railway stations in the name of their freedom by limiting everyone else's.

Not clear if they actually did it, watching the national news now and it seems the stations were calm and the people interviewed have been happy to be vaccinated and not to have a problem showing the pass. One guy said he was more worried about the protests than anything; either they didn't happen, the police dealt with them quickly, or the news is just ignoring the few shouty losers who showed up.

ETA ah ok the large quantity of police sent to deal with them kept them outside. Note that there has recently been violence at protests and death threats against journalists so they aren't taking any more sh.t from these c.nts.
Evening news is declaring the protests to have been a flop. Just a few people turning up and the forces of law and order kept them out of the way.
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Re: Vaccine passports

Post by shpalman » Wed Sep 01, 2021 5:11 pm

science_fox wrote:
Wed Sep 01, 2021 3:33 pm
shpalman wrote:
Wed Sep 01, 2021 3:20 pm
The Scottish parliament is to vote on the introduction of vaccine certificates for entry into nightclubs and large indoor and outdoor events next week

Opening nightclubs and then trying to introduce a green pass system was the wrong way around.
I've just been to two festivals, the frist required certificate of double vacc, eg the NHS Pass - easy to get once you'd been vaccinated, arrived by post a couple of days after request - or else a witin 48hr registered neg lfd cert which seemed like a faff. Without either they didn't let you in. The 2nd just asked people to be sensible and test. I came back from the 2nd with positive test :-( (feel fine). The first felt safer, I was happier, docs easy to obtain, and no hassle. The 2nd option is 10 days isolating and less optimal.
I'm sure that events here in Italy won't ask for Green Passes until they have to by law, but events just aren't allowed at all yet. There hasn't even been outdoor dancing let alone indoor nightclubs. I think sitting and watching live music is allowed.
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Re: Vaccine passports

Post by science_fox » Wed Sep 01, 2021 6:52 pm

headshot wrote:
Wed Sep 01, 2021 4:59 pm

Out of interest, which festivals?
Beautiful Days in Devon (17.5k attendance) , followed by Solfest in Cumbria (10k attendance)
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Re: Vaccine passports

Post by sTeamTraen » Wed Sep 01, 2021 9:49 pm

Without wishing to sound like a Lockdown Skeptic™, can someone tell me (ELI5) what the principal benefit of checking people at a venue for their vaccination status is intended to be?

We know that vaccines do not prevent Covid-19 infection. They very probably reduce the chance of someone catching it (after all, they could hardly increase that risk), but I don't think we have an estimate of that amount.

We know that vaccines do not prevent Covid-19 transmission. There is some evidence that they reduce it, but from what I've seen, nobody is claiming that vaccinated people are ~80-90% less likely to pass the virus on.

So what is the completion of this sentence: "Everyone who comes into my pub/club/restaurant must be vaccinated because <good, science-based reason>" ?

Of course, it's in each individual's interests to be vaccinated. And it's in the community's interest for as many people as possible to be vaccinated, because of the horrible cost of Covid patients to the health system (mean Covid ICU stay of 15 days is about 10x the mean for recovery from heart or cancer surgery).

But those reasons are not the problem of pub/club/restaurant owners per se. There is not strong evidence that they are relevant to the specific transaction of going into this pub on this evening, compared to, say, wearing a mask.

Of course, if businesses want to apply those rules in order to make people think "Hmmm, I really want to have a pint at the Lamb & Flag, I suppose I'd better get jabbed even though I couldn't be arsed until now", then great. But I wonder if this kind of forced altruism is a good use of a government's resources, including its limited stock of public goodwill. In fact it seems to me that there is a much better argument for asking everyone to show a recent negative test result.

(Full disclosure: We don't have a requirement to show vaccination status to enter restaurants here in Spain, and there seems to be rather little appetite for it, despite having one of Europe's highest vaccination rates and having had very high mask compliance for over a year now.)
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Re: Vaccine passports

Post by Herainestold » Thu Sep 02, 2021 4:37 am

I agree, I think the primary value of vaccine passports is the incentive for people to get vaccinated. I don't think they really do much to protect the public, as vaccinated people can get infected and transmit the virus to others.
Your idea to allow people to access facilities with a current negative test is a good idea, but I am not sure how easy it would be to implement. People would have to be tested twice a week to stay current and pcr tests are expensive and awkward. Lft rests are really not accurate enough to be useful.
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Re: Vaccine passports

Post by sTeamTraen » Thu Sep 02, 2021 8:07 am

Herainestold wrote:
Thu Sep 02, 2021 4:37 am
I agree, I think the primary value of vaccine passports is the incentive for people to get vaccinated. I don't think they really do much to protect the public, as vaccinated people can get infected and transmit the virus to others.
Your idea to allow people to access facilities with a current negative test is a good idea, but I am not sure how easy it would be to implement. People would have to be tested twice a week to stay current and pcr tests are expensive and awkward. Lft rests are really not accurate enough to be useful.
I know of at least two anti-vaxx, Covid denying people in France who have been getting LFTs twice a week. Whether that will continue when they are not free (soon, IIRC) will be interesting.

Another issue with vaccine passports in general in France (vaccine or test or recovery) is that only a few people, mostly in law enforcement, are legally allowed to ask to see ID. So if I present Jean Dupont's QR code at a restaurant where they don't know me, I might well get away with it. Very few restaurants in France are set up to do any sort of checks at the entrance (unlike American-style layouts with a "Please wait to be seated" lectern).
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Re: Vaccine passports

Post by shpalman » Thu Sep 02, 2021 8:28 am

sTeamTraen wrote:
Wed Sep 01, 2021 9:49 pm
Without wishing to sound like a Lockdown Skeptic™, can someone tell me (ELI5) what the principal benefit of checking people at a venue for their vaccination status is intended to be?

We know that vaccines do not prevent Covid-19 infection. They very probably reduce the chance of someone catching it (after all, they could hardly increase that risk), but I don't think we have an estimate of that amount.

We know that vaccines do not prevent Covid-19 transmission. There is some evidence that they reduce it, but from what I've seen, nobody is claiming that vaccinated people are ~80-90% less likely to pass the virus on.

So what is the completion of this sentence: "Everyone who comes into my pub/club/restaurant must be vaccinated because <good, science-based reason>" ?

Of course, it's in each individual's interests to be vaccinated. And it's in the community's interest for as many people as possible to be vaccinated, because of the horrible cost of Covid patients to the health system (mean Covid ICU stay of 15 days is about 10x the mean for recovery from heart or cancer surgery).

But those reasons are not the problem of pub/club/restaurant owners per se. There is not strong evidence that they are relevant to the specific transaction of going into this pub on this evening, compared to, say, wearing a mask.

Of course, if businesses want to apply those rules in order to make people think "Hmmm, I really want to have a pint at the Lamb & Flag, I suppose I'd better get jabbed even though I couldn't be arsed until now", then great. But I wonder if this kind of forced altruism is a good use of a government's resources, including its limited stock of public goodwill. In fact it seems to me that there is a much better argument for asking everyone to show a recent negative test result.

(Full disclosure: We don't have a requirement to show vaccination status to enter restaurants here in Spain, and there seems to be rather little appetite for it, despite having one of Europe's highest vaccination rates and having had very high mask compliance for over a year now.)
We don't have an estimate of how much vaccination reduces your chance of catching covid, but we expect there to be some effect. We know that vaccines do not prevent transmission but data suggests that after the first few days the viral load in a vaccinated person drops much faster than in an unvaccinated person so we would expect them to be shedding less of the covids. And then we know of course that vaccination reduces your chance of ending up with bad outcomes if you do catch it, and greatly reduces your chance of dying.

So if you're a vaccinated person in a room full of vaccinated people there's less likely to be someone there shedding lots of viruses, you're less likely to catch (don't know how much) if there's someone there shedding lots of viruses, and you're less likely to have a bad time of it if you catch it.

(You could argue that an infected vaccinated person is more likely to be asymptomatic and feel healthy enough to go out as compared to an infected unvaccinated person, but it's obvious that infected unvaccinated people can also be completely asymptomatic or at least pre-symptomatic or symptomatic but "it's allergies" otherwise we wouldn't be in this mess at all.)

Mask mandates don't make a whole lot of sense in indoor spaces where people are eating and drinking anyway.

The issue with PCR testing is that it's expensive and it takes days for the results to come back, and if the Green Pass is only valid for 48 hours is that since the swab or since it arrived at the lab or since you got the result? And rapid tests are of course less reliable especially if you do them yourself.

But one of the "selling" points of vaccines is that you don't have to keep getting tested and the main reason that you can earn a 48 hour Green Pass with a negative result on a rapid test is so that the Green Pass isn't seen quite so explicitly as discrimination against people who aren't vaccinated.

Or are you suggesting that only people who have been vaccinated get a Green Pass but they also have to present a negative test result?
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Re: Vaccine passports

Post by sTeamTraen » Thu Sep 02, 2021 9:07 am

shpalman wrote:
Thu Sep 02, 2021 8:28 am
Or are you suggesting that only people who have been vaccinated get a Green Pass but they also have to present a negative test result?
I'm not sure exactly what I'm suggesting. I do worry that in a restaurant where everyone is vaccinated there is still going to be a decent amount of transmission, and then those people will go home and infect people who for whatever reason are not vaccinated. I don't think we have enough evidence for a policy of "you're vaccinated, so knock yourself out and we'll deal with the odd extra case, no problem".

I say that as someone who has perhaps been less reluctant than others to discuss the need to open up while coverage is still imperfect. If we had evidence that the effectiveness of vaccines against transmission was the same ~90% as it is for serious illness then I'd probably be in favour of vaccine passports, same as I was always in favour of making masks compulsory. I just find the arguments for vaccine passports to be based on a rather hand-waving approach to evidence.
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Re: Vaccine passports

Post by shpalman » Thu Sep 02, 2021 9:17 am

sTeamTraen wrote:
Thu Sep 02, 2021 9:07 am
shpalman wrote:
Thu Sep 02, 2021 8:28 am
Or are you suggesting that only people who have been vaccinated get a Green Pass but they also have to present a negative test result?
I'm not sure exactly what I'm suggesting. I do worry that in a restaurant where everyone is vaccinated there is still going to be a decent amount of transmission, and then those people will go home and infect people who for whatever reason are not vaccinated. I don't think we have enough evidence for a policy of "you're vaccinated, so knock yourself out and we'll deal with the odd extra case, no problem".
Restaurants were open anyway though. Well, every country is different but indoor dining was allowed in Italy but now (well, since about a month ago) requires a Green Pass. I think more people are allowed at the same table now, in White Zones (i.e. not Sicily) at least.

I think the "whatever" reason hides the fact that the proportion of people who genuinely can't get vaccinated (or if they did it wouldn't have any effect [or maybe they are vaccinated but still very vulnerable]) is very small compared to those who can't be bothered or don't want to.

The problem with "you're vaccinated, so knock yourself out and we'll deal with the odd extra case, no problem" is that the UK is probably going to end up with 1000 deaths per week by mid September anyway. But vaccination needs to be incentivised in as many ways as reasonable because it would help a lot regarding deaths and pressure on hospitals. We've long missed the chance to go for zero covid so you can only assume the covids are going to find you sooner or later and you need to make sure that it goes as least bad for yourself as possible when it happens.
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Re: Vaccine passports

Post by shpalman » Thu Sep 02, 2021 10:51 am

STOP EVERYONE apparently we're ignor[ing] the arguments raging around them!
If the expert advice tells you that castigating and punishing people who won’t take the vaccine doesn’t solve the problem, what kind of expert-lover are you to ignore it?
Well, ok then, what's the expert advice regarding solving the problem, which I personally can do?
The [Boardmaster] festival organisers already had a Covid-status check in place, with every ticketholder aged over 11 required to show either a recent negative test result or a vaccination status. It must have been a disappointment to everyone concerned, that those two failsafes – the open air, and the vaccine – did, in 4,700 cases, fail. Yet it is unlikely that a legal or regulatory requirement to do the very thing the organisers already did would have made a difference.
So what actual "problem" are we even trying to solve? Or rather, if vaccination isn't stopping young people from getting infected why be so bothered about the low uptake?

I mean, I think I know the answer to this, but it's not clear if the article does.
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Re: Vaccine passports

Post by shpalman » Thu Sep 02, 2021 12:29 pm

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