Travel and masks

Covid-19 discussion, bring your own statistics
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shpalman
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Re: Travel and masks

Post by shpalman » Fri Jan 07, 2022 3:30 pm

Bird on a Fire wrote:
Fri Jan 07, 2022 2:07 pm
Proximity is important too. People drinking at another table are several metres away, whereas bar staff or people queuing or whatever are much closer. Omicron can spread during shorter contacts, but I've not seen much suggestion it travels over longer distances...
Doesn't it basically fill a whole room unless you keep* the windows open?

* - yes, keep them open, not just for 10 minutes every hour.
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Re: Travel and masks

Post by Bird on a Fire » Fri Jan 07, 2022 4:32 pm

shpalman wrote:
Fri Jan 07, 2022 3:30 pm
Bird on a Fire wrote:
Fri Jan 07, 2022 2:07 pm
Proximity is important too. People drinking at another table are several metres away, whereas bar staff or people queuing or whatever are much closer. Omicron can spread during shorter contacts, but I've not seen much suggestion it travels over longer distances...
Doesn't it basically fill a whole room unless you keep* the windows open?

* - yes, keep them open, not just for 10 minutes every hour.
I'm not sure that's a given - my understanding is that proximity to the infected person makes a big difference to infection risk. If omicron has made such a difference that social distancing is no longer worthwhile I missed the announcement.

But also, that's why I sit outside.
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Re: Travel and masks

Post by monkey » Fri Jan 07, 2022 4:45 pm

headshot wrote:
Fri Jan 07, 2022 2:27 pm
Bird on a Fire wrote:
Fri Jan 07, 2022 2:07 pm
There is a reason masks have been emphasised during the pandemic. Seems to be something Britons have an odd struggle with, like identification documents, while the rest of the world gets on just fine.
Tell that to my friends in Alberta...and most red states in the US.
I live in one of them!

While true, it seems to be more of a urban/rural divide. Pretty sure people have looked into it, I will look for you later.

It's the same thing that makes the States red or blue: more rural, more likely to be red, but the divide isn't between Mississippi and California, it's between the cities and banjo country.

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Re: Travel and masks

Post by shpalman » Fri Jan 07, 2022 4:46 pm

Bird on a Fire wrote:
Fri Jan 07, 2022 4:32 pm
shpalman wrote:
Fri Jan 07, 2022 3:30 pm
Bird on a Fire wrote:
Fri Jan 07, 2022 2:07 pm
Proximity is important too. People drinking at another table are several metres away, whereas bar staff or people queuing or whatever are much closer. Omicron can spread during shorter contacts, but I've not seen much suggestion it travels over longer distances...
Doesn't it basically fill a whole room unless you keep* the windows open?

* - yes, keep them open, not just for 10 minutes every hour.
I'm not sure that's a given - my understanding is that proximity to the infected person makes a big difference to infection risk. If omicron has made such a difference that social distancing is no longer worthwhile I missed the announcement.

But also, that's why I sit outside.
Wot I reckoned was that social distancing is a useful concept in terms of momentary interactions with strangers (e.g. shops) where proximity makes a big difference (droplets fall, aerosols disperse) but otherwise helps to limit the number of people in a closed space (e.g. the pub) rather than specifically fix the minimum distance between them. Depending on the ventilation in the pub it will eventually just fill with aerosols.
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Re: Travel and masks

Post by Bird on a Fire » Fri Jan 07, 2022 5:10 pm

Fair enough. Portugal's been doing both - reduced maximum capacity (based on area) and minimum distances between tables/queues/etc.

I wonder whether a roaring log fire does sufficient ventilation and aerosol-busting? While most places round here have got covered outdoor spaces and patio heaters now, I can't say I wouldn't prefer to be in the warm sometimes.
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Re: Travel and masks

Post by shpalman » Fri Jan 07, 2022 5:13 pm

Here there's also table service only, and a Super Green Pass to enter.
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Re: Travel and masks

Post by WFJ » Fri Jan 07, 2022 5:14 pm

I think it's a bit of a stretch to call going to the pub social distancing, even if everyone wore full hazmat suits when they were not eating or drinking. Cloth masks in these situations would be pointless theatre. The main benefits from bigger spaces between groups will be from limiting overall occupancy and so reducing the size of super-spreader events.

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Re: Travel and masks

Post by Lew Dolby » Fri Jan 07, 2022 5:29 pm

Looks like Italy is introducing FFP2 masks on public transport. Or maybe they've had that for ages.

[just got the last couple of words of a discussion on french tv. maybe they were discussing if it was more effective and should introduced in France]
WOULD CUSTOMERS PLEASE REFRAIN FROM SITTING ON THE COUNTER BY THE BACON SLICER - AS WE'RE GETTING A LITTLE BEHIND IN OUR ORDERS.

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Re: Travel and masks

Post by Bird on a Fire » Fri Jan 07, 2022 5:49 pm

shpalman wrote:
Fri Jan 07, 2022 5:13 pm
Here there's also table service only, and a Super Green Pass to enter.
Yes, Portugal's had those on and off as well. At the moment bars are closed, restaurants are green pass and test for big events.
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Re: Travel and masks

Post by Herainestold » Fri Jan 07, 2022 6:04 pm

WFJ wrote:
Fri Jan 07, 2022 5:14 pm
I think it's a bit of a stretch to call going to the pub social distancing, even if everyone wore full hazmat suits when they were not eating or drinking. Cloth masks in these situations would be pointless theatre. The main benefits from bigger spaces between groups will be from limiting overall occupancy and so reducing the size of super-spreader events.
Indeed. Realistically pubs should be closed as should all indoor venues. Omicron is as contagious as measles.
Masking forever
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Re: Travel and masks

Post by monkey » Fri Jan 07, 2022 6:09 pm

monkey wrote:
Fri Jan 07, 2022 4:45 pm
headshot wrote:
Fri Jan 07, 2022 2:27 pm
Bird on a Fire wrote:
Fri Jan 07, 2022 2:07 pm
There is a reason masks have been emphasised during the pandemic. Seems to be something Britons have an odd struggle with, like identification documents, while the rest of the world gets on just fine.
Tell that to my friends in Alberta...and most red states in the US.
I live in one of them!

While true, it seems to be more of a urban/rural divide. Pretty sure people have looked into it, I will look for you later.

It's the same thing that makes the States red or blue: more rural, more likely to be red, but the divide isn't between Mississippi and California, it's between the cities and banjo country.
Here you go!

clicky

ETA: And by 'cities' I mean big places, USians call just about anything a city.

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Re: Travel and masks

Post by headshot » Fri Jan 07, 2022 8:40 pm

Herainestold wrote:
Fri Jan 07, 2022 6:04 pm
WFJ wrote:
Fri Jan 07, 2022 5:14 pm
I think it's a bit of a stretch to call going to the pub social distancing, even if everyone wore full hazmat suits when they were not eating or drinking. Cloth masks in these situations would be pointless theatre. The main benefits from bigger spaces between groups will be from limiting overall occupancy and so reducing the size of super-spreader events.
Indeed. Realistically pubs should be closed as should all indoor venues. Omicron is as contagious as measles.
And yet we don’t shut the country down to contain measles…

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Re: Travel and masks

Post by Herainestold » Fri Jan 07, 2022 8:53 pm

headshot wrote:
Fri Jan 07, 2022 8:40 pm
Herainestold wrote:
Fri Jan 07, 2022 6:04 pm
WFJ wrote:
Fri Jan 07, 2022 5:14 pm
I think it's a bit of a stretch to call going to the pub social distancing, even if everyone wore full hazmat suits when they were not eating or drinking. Cloth masks in these situations would be pointless theatre. The main benefits from bigger spaces between groups will be from limiting overall occupancy and so reducing the size of super-spreader events.
Indeed. Realistically pubs should be closed as should all indoor venues. Omicron is as contagious as measles.
And yet we don’t shut the country down to contain measles…
We have vaccines that confer sterilizing immunity for measles, and elder people are immune from childhood exposure. Now we have
pathogen where there is no immunity (even vaxed and previous covid exposure are getting Omicron). "Mild" and asymptomatic cases can result in long covid including organ damage, The NHS is under dire stress.

FP2/3 masks may work, but most people are not using them.
Masking forever
Putin is a monster, Russian people are not.

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Re: Travel and masks

Post by Stranger Mouse » Fri Jan 07, 2022 9:32 pm

I sat in a cinema for a couple hours with an FFP3 earlier (also worn during trip to/from cinema) and to be fair I can understand why people wouldn’t want to wear them (although it did make me feel a lot safer). I think FFP2 may be the way for me to go under normal circumstances.
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Re: Travel and masks

Post by shpalman » Fri Jan 07, 2022 10:00 pm

Lew Dolby wrote:
Fri Jan 07, 2022 5:29 pm
Looks like Italy is introducing FFP2 masks on public transport. Or maybe they've had that for ages.

[just got the last couple of words of a discussion on french tv. maybe they were discussing if it was more effective and should introduced in France]
FFP2 masks instead of just any old mask on public transport is a relatively new thing.

Also we'll need FFP2 masks when we arrive at dance lessons but then won't need to wear masks during the lesson *face-elbow*
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Re: Travel and masks

Post by Bird on a Fire » Fri Jan 07, 2022 10:53 pm

shpalman wrote:
Fri Jan 07, 2022 10:00 pm
*face-elbow*
Are you.....dabbing?
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Re: Travel and masks

Post by Millennie Al » Sat Jan 08, 2022 1:00 am

Bird on a Fire wrote:
Fri Jan 07, 2022 2:07 pm
There is a reason masks have been emphasised during the pandemic.
Yes, and that reason is that people are desperate for something which is easy to do and will save them. It has nothing to do with whether or not it actually works. This has been frequently expressed as "there are no atheists in foxholes". In the specific case of masks, has no good evidence that they makes a difference.

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Re: Travel and masks

Post by Gfamily » Sat Jan 08, 2022 1:12 am

Millennie Al wrote:
Sat Jan 08, 2022 1:00 am
Bird on a Fire wrote:
Fri Jan 07, 2022 2:07 pm
There is a reason masks have been emphasised during the pandemic.
Yes, and that reason is that people are desperate for something which is easy to do and will save them. It has nothing to do with whether or not it actually works. This has been frequently expressed as "there are no atheists in foxholes". In the specific case of masks, has no good evidence that they makes a difference.
Bollocks!
My avatar was a scientific result that was later found to be 'mistaken' - I rarely claim to be 100% correct
ETA 5/8/20: I've been advised that the result was correct, it was the initial interpretation that needed to be withdrawn
Meta? I'd say so!

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Re: Travel and masks

Post by Bird on a Fire » Sat Jan 08, 2022 2:19 am

No, it's meant to go on your face.
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Re: Travel and masks

Post by Stranger Mouse » Sat Jan 08, 2022 1:00 pm

Bird on a Fire wrote:
Fri Jan 07, 2022 10:53 pm
shpalman wrote:
Fri Jan 07, 2022 10:00 pm
*face-elbow*
Are you.....dabbing?
I think he’s mistaken the Thai boxing class for the dance class
I’ve decided I should be on the pardon list if that’s still in the works

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Re: Travel and masks

Post by Herainestold » Sat Jan 08, 2022 5:18 pm

Millennie Al wrote:
Sat Jan 08, 2022 1:00 am
Bird on a Fire wrote:
Fri Jan 07, 2022 2:07 pm
There is a reason masks have been emphasised during the pandemic.
Yes, and that reason is that people are desperate for something which is easy to do and will save them. It has nothing to do with whether or not it actually works. This has been frequently expressed as "there are no atheists in foxholes". In the specific case of masks, has no good evidence that they makes a difference.
Masks exist on a spectrum. Cloth ones are useless against Omicron. Properly fitted FFP3 masks in the context of sterile protocol are very effective.
Masking forever
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Re: Travel and masks

Post by Millennie Al » Sun Jan 09, 2022 1:22 am

Herainestold wrote:
Sat Jan 08, 2022 5:18 pm
Millennie Al wrote:
Sat Jan 08, 2022 1:00 am
Bird on a Fire wrote:
Fri Jan 07, 2022 2:07 pm
There is a reason masks have been emphasised during the pandemic.
Yes, and that reason is that people are desperate for something which is easy to do and will save them. It has nothing to do with whether or not it actually works. This has been frequently expressed as "there are no atheists in foxholes". In the specific case of masks, has no good evidence that they makes a difference.
Masks exist on a spectrum. Cloth ones are useless against Omicron. Properly fitted FFP3 masks in the context of sterile protocol are very effective.
The masks which have been emphasised have not been FFP3 expertly fitted - they have been cloth or surgical masks fitted by ordinary members of the public who have not been given any training in wearing them. Such mask wearing is clearly useless, so its emphasis does not indicate a genuine attempt by experts to help.

Herainestold
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Re: Travel and masks

Post by Herainestold » Sun Jan 09, 2022 3:45 am

Millennie Al wrote:
Sun Jan 09, 2022 1:22 am
Herainestold wrote:
Sat Jan 08, 2022 5:18 pm
Millennie Al wrote:
Sat Jan 08, 2022 1:00 am


Yes, and that reason is that people are desperate for something which is easy to do and will save them. It has nothing to do with whether or not it actually works. This has been frequently expressed as "there are no atheists in foxholes". In the specific case of masks, has no good evidence that they makes a difference.
Masks exist on a spectrum. Cloth ones are useless against Omicron. Properly fitted FFP3 masks in the context of sterile protocol are very effective.
The masks which have been emphasised have not been FFP3 expertly fitted - they have been cloth or surgical masks fitted by ordinary members of the public who have not been given any training in wearing them. Such mask wearing is clearly useless, so its emphasis does not indicate a genuine attempt by experts to help.
A new clean surgical mask has some protection against pre-Delta variants of covid. The advice now in this Omicron era is shifting away from cloth and towards properly fitted FFP3 masks. Better late than never.
Masking forever
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Re: Travel and masks

Post by Stranger Mouse » Sun Jan 09, 2022 3:07 pm

Not sure that a carefully fitted but not professionally fitted FFP3 is “useless” although I accept it will be less effective
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Re: Travel and masks

Post by shpalman » Tue Jan 11, 2022 4:32 pm

shpalman wrote:
Fri Jan 07, 2022 3:30 pm
Bird on a Fire wrote:
Fri Jan 07, 2022 2:07 pm
Proximity is important too. People drinking at another table are several metres away, whereas bar staff or people queuing or whatever are much closer. Omicron can spread during shorter contacts, but I've not seen much suggestion it travels over longer distances...
Doesn't it basically fill a whole room unless you keep* the windows open?

* - yes, keep them open, not just for 10 minutes every hour.
You were right, because apparently Covid loses 90% of ability to infect within five minutes in air "according to the world’s first simulations of how the virus survives in exhaled air."
Until now, our assumptions about how long the virus survives in tiny airborne droplets have been based on studies that involved spraying virus into sealed vessels called Goldberg drums, which rotate to keep the droplets airborne. Using this method, US researchers found that infectious virus could still be detected after three hours. Yet such experiments do not accurately replicate what happens when we cough or breathe.

Instead, researchers from the University of Bristol developed apparatus that allowed them to generate any number of tiny, virus-containing particles and gently levitate them between two electric rings for anywhere between five seconds to 20 minutes, while tightly controlling the temperature, humidity and UV light intensity of their surroundings. “This is the first time anyone has been able to actually simulate what happens to the aerosol during the exhalation process,” Reid said.
When [the humidity] was lower than 50% – similar to the relatively dry air found in many offices – the virus had lost half of its infectivity within 10 seconds, after which the decline was slower and more steady. At 90% humidity – roughly equivalent to a steam or shower room – the decline in infectivity was more gradual, with 52% of particles remaining infectious after five minutes, dropping to about 10% after 20 minutes.
The Guardian even linked to it:

The Dynamics of SARS-CoV-2 Infectivity with Changes in Aerosol Microenvironment
Henry P. Oswin, Allen E. Haddrell, Mara Otero-Fernandez, Jamie F.S. Mann, Tristan A. Cogan, Tom Hilditch, Jianghan Tian, Dan Hardy, Darryl J. Hill, Adam Finn, Andrew D. Davidson, Jonathan P. Reid

doi: https://doi.org/10.1101/2022.01.08.22268944

https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101 ... 22268944v1
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